A Christian re-examining Christianity

reply to post by Lionhearte


Consider the possibility that this thief already had eternal life, he just didn't realize it...

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

This man was already condemed to death for his deeds... he asked no forgiveness... he only asked that Jesus remember him...

Jesus basically said... "no worries my friend, you'll be going to the same place we all go"

reply to post by boncho

Yes, because none of it could be fabricated, abused, misinterpreted... right?

I'd say you have the same odds of the Constitution being fabricated, abused, and misinterpreted.

No it's not. It is not at all. In fact, it is the anathema to historical documents. Historical documents include references to publicly filed information. Information, papers and texts that are part of historical accounts because they are notarized, or documented publicly.

Religion back then was a private enterprise.

People in 500 B.C. took the liberty of including a citation page whenever they wrote something? That's funny.

Biblical scholar Rachel Havrelock is a MythBuster in her own right, dispelling popular beliefs about Christianity. The University of Illinois at Chicago professor traveled to the Holy Land to co-host the Discovery Channel documentary "Who Was Jesus?"

I'm aware of who she is, and I've read the interview with her. I'd like to sit and have a talk with her, as she is missing some very key things that are blindly obvious. Remember, don't propose argument from authority. That doesn't work here.

Due to the prophecies, it was expected that the Messiah would come from Bethlehem and be a son of King David, who was the second king of the United Kingdom of Israel, according to the Hebrew Bible. That perhaps is one reason why the genealogy in Matthew links Jesus to the House of David.

This is correct, the Jewish authorities were expecting the Messiah at that point in time. They were literally counting the days, for it was prophesied to the EXACT date when the Messiah would be revealed. The reason he was rejected, was because Jesus wasn't their "idealized" view of a Messiah. He spoke to drunkards, he mocked the High Priests.

RH: Precisely. There is no reason why Jesus should have come from Nazareth, which was never mentioned in the prophecies, or that he should have begun his work at the Sea of Galilee.

What she says is correct. There's no direct reference to Nazareth, though there are possible explanations for this.

The sad thing is, his birthplace is prophesied (Bethlehem), yet no one cares about that, apparently.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Lionhearte

 

Consider the possibility that this thief already had eternal life, he just didn't realize it...

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

This man was already condemed to death for his deeds... he asked no forgiveness... he only asked that Jesus remember him...

Jesus basically said... "no worries my friend, you'll be going to the same place we all go"

I think I know why you say that. If I remember correctly, you don't believe Jesus is God. The Thief did not need to ask for forgiveness, NO ONE ever does. A person can live their whole life and not ask for forgiveness, because technically, God has already forgiven the entire world. All it takes is belief.

In the technical sense, "Paradise" was purgatory. The "good" part of purgatory. So, yes. Jesus knew he was going with him to purgatory, but he truthfully revealed to him that he'd be going to the "good" part, because of his faith - like Noah, Moses, and all the others before him. They waited there, and after Jesus went to purgatory, he gave the good news, preached to the lost, on both sides of the Void, and cleared it out. Those who accepted Christ, went to Heaven. Those who rejected him, went to Hell.

reply to post by Lionhearte

Yea, but you're saying "If you were God" from a Human perspective. If you were actually God, you'd do the same things He did, because you would have His understanding, His feelings, His knowledge.

If I was God, I wouldnt regret creating humans and then flooding the earth, I wouldn't be a jealous, and I wouldn't command moses and his armies to kill all the caananites, their wives & children. I wouldn't allow all these atrocities to happen here on earth and would leave everyone easy direct access to me & to communicate with me so there would be a utopian theocracy. But it isn't that way, which makes me consider that there is much more to the story than meets the eye.

This is of course all philosophical meanderings. I am not God and just a puny speck of dust, a grain of sand in awe of my insignificance in the grandness of Infinity and hugeness of space. Im trying to reconcile some things here.

I'm not saying to tolerate them. I'm saying there's two sides to every story, two faces to the same coin. Evil flourishes in this world when good men do nothing.

hey I like a good football game w/ my favorite team, an ice cold beer, a beautiful day, a child playing w/ a puppy, art, a good album, etc. But can I justify myself to enjoy any of that when I have other humans suffering and going through hell here? Life here really isn't fair.

There's a reason why me, and the other Christians on this board even bother talking about this stuff. Deep down, we've all hated people, at some point or another. It took the awakening from the prevenient grace of God, to open our eyes. The only reason we bother telling people the good news, is because we DON'T want anyone to go to Hell, not even our worst enemies. And it's so simple too.

Yea I wish I can share the news more too. I've tasted the grace and its because of that that I care for others & complete strangers and that the madness of this world makes me sick to my stomach. No matter how much I try to help or do, its never enough it seems. It may be simple but people are so brainwashed that they dont want to hear it.

At the same time, I've found some awesome things in other religions, that would really help Christians overcome alot of stuff, but they too dont want to hear anything outside the Bible.

Being born of the flesh, is born of water. Being born of the spirit, is being born-anew. A baptism of water is not required to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I myself have never been baptized with water, not even as a child. And how does one become born-anew? The coup de grace, John 3:16 -

I dont know about that. Therein lays another problem... all the 1000's of interpretations. I dont see being born of flesh as being born of water. I got re-baptised as an adult and then after that baptism (few weeks later) underwent a holy spirit experience that led to ego death. I saw that verse for sure as meaning water baptism and then direct mystical experience leading to ego death. After my ego death, it was like a was a new born ...I had to re-learn how to function in the world, how to even be around people, how to speak, how to act, etc. It was like I was really born again as a direct experience, not some interpretation. ANd yet I find very few who have gone through this in the Church. Those who have had the same experience as I, are either hermits, monks, or dont talk about it because no one in the main stream churches even comprehends the direct mystical experiences.

As I've already said, the Thief is the proof. He was condemned for thievery, for crying out loud. He wasn't a practitioner of the law, he was a sinner, just like the rest of us. Even at death's door, he knew he was set for eternity in hell - and didn't even ask Jesus to save him, but to simply remember him. For his faith, for his belief, Jesus gave him eternal life.

I cant front on the thief. Im sure it was like that, he believed and was saved. Last minute thing. However like I said, I know quite a few "Christians" who come and go. Claim they believe and the check back in w them a few years later and theyre on something else, or no longer roll w/ The Lord.

Originally posted by Lionhearte

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Lionhearte

 

Consider the possibility that this thief already had eternal life, he just didn't realize it...

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

This man was already condemed to death for his deeds... he asked no forgiveness... he only asked that Jesus remember him...

Jesus basically said... "no worries my friend, you'll be going to the same place we all go"

I think I know why you say that. If I remember correctly, you don't believe Jesus is God. The Thief did not need to ask for forgiveness, NO ONE ever does. A person can live their whole life and not ask for forgiveness, because technically, God has already forgiven the entire world. All it takes is belief.

In the technical sense, "Paradise" was purgatory. The "good" part of purgatory. So, yes. Jesus knew he was going with him to purgatory, but he truthfully revealed to him that he'd be going to the "good" part, because of his faith - like Noah, Moses, and all the others before him. They waited there, and after Jesus went to purgatory, he gave the good news, preached to the lost, on both sides of the Void, and cleared it out. Those who accepted Christ, went to Heaven. Those who rejected him, went to Hell.

Yes i know the christian theology... i don't believe most of the mythical stories you'll hear about purgatory... hell or any of the other myths fabricated for conversion of the populous...

Belief means nothing if its has nothing to back it up... One might say "i believe i should be a good person" but if said person does not show his belief in some way... is he actually a good person?

This thief still had to face judgement.. but he already had eternal life, just like everyone else... Jesus just gave him the update...

This idea christians have where the entire world is forgiven is flawed... It gives the impression that Jesus gave the world a free ticket to sin...

Forgive as your father forgives, and you will be forgiven... have mercy as your father has mercy and you will be shown mercy... But if you do not forgive others you will not be forgiven, and if you do not show mercy... you will see none...

Read his words my friend... they are truth

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by dominicus

You may want to look up Marcion. He was an early Christian heretic. He taught that theory of evil OT demiurge. It becomes quite evident that the OT character falls far short of what we would consider as a deity worthy of respect. I seriously doubt that such a being could create at all, seeing as he is so mighty to destroy.

If you consider Jesus as told by the author of Gospel of John, you will easily see a great difference between the OT god (Yahweh) and the God of Jesus.

Marcion, a bishop of Sinope, was actually the first to canonize the early Christian writings. Tertullian, more than a half century after Marcion's death, in a long-winded and vulgar polemic, denounced Marcion as a docetic heretic and charged him with altering the Gospel of Luke. The Marcion church, which was a serious rival in number to the church of Rome at the time, held that it was in fact their version of the book of Luke that was the original, uncorrupted text (ironically, Tertullian himself was deemed a heretic by the church soonafter for joining a Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker type of cult called Montanism).

It was the Marcion Church that was the impetus behind the church of Rome's decision to make their own canon linked with the Hebrew Tanakh/Torah, which ultimately became that what we know as the bible, today.

reply to post by dominicus
i Op ...you said " This is something I myself have to reconcile because alot of things don't make sense in the big picture." Well you being scientific you can understand in your craft that knowing the big picture may be a long way off from knowing in our material world ..... There is something else to consider that I found helpful in looking at the OT ...God uses all forms of rhetoric ...it also has cultural context that does not lend well to today's idioms ..It is a challenge to understand ,but not impossible ...The thing that happened in the garden and what may have been the results are given in a story that has at its core the redemption of man back to God ..The things we see in the record of the story don't tell us the whole story but give us a glimpse and only our ability to understand the part about it being strange to our understanding ...don't forget that there is a very smart and crafty adversary that God has a final plan for ..God is in control even though the enemy has some power and some time left for all things to done ...Gods complete victory of the cross ,bruised the head, and what God wanted to do will become final ...peace

reply to post by dominicus


Can you tell us more of your mystical experiences?

reply to post by 1nOne

It was the Marcion Church that was the impetus behind the church of Rome's decision to make their own canon linked with the Hebrew Tanakh/Torah, which ultimately became that what we know as the bible, today.

so what you are saying is that Marcion's Canon is the best one? IS there a link or something we can access to study the differences?

reply to post by dominicus


I'm not saying it's the best, but that it is worth reading and considering.
Also, if you haven't already, read up on the Cathars, too.
These were very pious people who lived in accord with the Word.

A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
Matthew 7:18

www.gnosis.org...

It's too bad my brain gets in the way of me being religious.... I see the value of the messages and knowledge inside of NT but I get dumbfounded as to how God could be the same within the OT and NT.. Did God evolve? Was the old hateful God defeated by a new and loving God? are there multiple Gods? or was God just bipolar?

I do want to believe but from a logical standpoint I can't wrap my brain around these illogical concepts. So far all of the answers I've heard from believers were just sidestepping the questions and I never really found an answer. Respect the fact that we are individuals and my thinking process differs from your own, so don't throw judgement on me because I don't for religious people... I would appreciate an honest and logical answer to this question myself....

reply to post by jheated5


I think you've come to the right thread -- you're among non-judgemental thinkers, here, all of whom are believers in the Word. I'm sure Dominicus, Pthena and Akragon will offer their insights, too, if asked nicely.

Consider the following contrast between the Jewish god, Yahweh/Jehovah and Christ's Heavenly Father:

Yahweh:
I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. Genesis 17:6
vs.
Christ:
Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me.” Matthew 4:8-9

Yahweh:
And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel 2 Samuel 24:1
vs.
Himself:
Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel. 1Chronicles 21:1

Yahweh:
But you shall remember the LORD your God, for it is He who is giving you power to make wealth Deuteronomy 8:18
The blessing of the LORD brings wealth, and he adds no trouble to it. Proverbs 10:22
Thus says the LORD: “The wealth of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush, and the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over to you and be yours" Isaiah 45:14
vs.
Christ:
No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth. Matthew 6:24

Yahweh:
The LORD your God will clear away these nations before you little by little; you will not be able to put an end to them quickly, for the wild beasts would grow too numerous for you. But the LORD your God will deliver them before you, and will throw them into great confusion until they are destroyed. He will deliver their kings into your hand so that you will make their name perish from under heaven; no man will be able to stand before you until you have destroyed them.
Deuteronomy 7:22-24
vs.
Christ:
You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. Matthew 5:43-44

Yahweh:
But if this charge is true, that the girl was not found a virgin, then they shall bring out the girl to the doorway of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death Deuteronomy 22:20-21
vs.
Christ:
He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her. John 8:7


Yahweh/Jehovah:
I will give you the treasures of darkness, riches stored in secret places,
so that you may know that I am the Lord, the God of Israel, who summons you by name.
I form light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord Yahweh
do all these things. ( Isaiah 45:3,7)
For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. For the LORD your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land. (Deuteronomy 4:24, 6:15)
vs.
Christ:
Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant (1Corinthians 13:4)
God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. (John 1:5b)
And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. (1John 4:16)

reply to post by 1nOne


Thanks for showing the contrasts and helping with my point. Is there or will there ever be an answer as to what made the OT and NT so different from each other, how can someone believe it all when most Christians are mostly taught what is inside the NT? I guess to me it seems like Ying and Yang, if you believe in God he has to be all loving and evil at the same time or else he is not perfection... Some people can't acknowledge this though...

Originally posted by jheated5
reply to post by 1nOne

 

Thanks for showing the contrasts and helping with my point. Is there or will there ever be an answer as to what made the OT and NT so different from each other, how can someone believe it all when most Christians are mostly taught what is inside the NT? I guess to me it seems like Ying and Yang, if you believe in God he has to be all loving and evil at the same time or else he is not perfection... Some people can't acknowledge this though...

God did not create evil my friend... man did...

Evil is far to subjective to even consider in my opinion... It is simply selfishness examplified...

If you want the truth of the matter read HIS words... i assume you know who im refering to...

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by jheated5
reply to post by 1nOne

 

Thanks for showing the contrasts and helping with my point. Is there or will there ever be an answer as to what made the OT and NT so different from each other, how can someone believe it all when most Christians are mostly taught what is inside the NT? I guess to me it seems like Ying and Yang, if you believe in God he has to be all loving and evil at the same time or else he is not perfection... Some people can't acknowledge this though...

God did not create evil my friend... man did...

Evil is far to subjective to even consider in my opinion... It is simply selfishness examplified...

If you want the truth of the matter read HIS words... i assume you know who im refering to...

Weird I thought the God you're talking about created everything? I guess he can only create good things right?

Originally posted by jheated5

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by jheated5
reply to post by 1nOne

 

Thanks for showing the contrasts and helping with my point. Is there or will there ever be an answer as to what made the OT and NT so different from each other, how can someone believe it all when most Christians are mostly taught what is inside the NT? I guess to me it seems like Ying and Yang, if you believe in God he has to be all loving and evil at the same time or else he is not perfection... Some people can't acknowledge this though...

God did not create evil my friend... man did...

Evil is far to subjective to even consider in my opinion... It is simply selfishness examplified...

If you want the truth of the matter read HIS words... i assume you know who im refering to...

Weird I thought the God you're talking about created everything? I guess he can only create good things right?

You don't get it... He created all, but "evil" comes from mans thoughts and actions...

Without man evil would not exist...

Its simply a word that defines an action that is generally unplesant to most people... but one persons evil might not be so evil to another... its all about perspective.

Religious folk believe evil comes from spirits that influence us like the "devil"... i'll have no part of such mythological nonsence

I agree it's a concept as well, you can say the same thing about love, without man there would be no love... I don't think good and evil is limited to man though, I'm sure animals also have the concepts as well.....

reply to post by jheated5


im unsure about animals... they act according to their nature... and nature in most cases is selfish...

This is what seperates us from the animals... logic, reasoning, selflessness...

Spiritualism is acting against ones human nature... which is selfish in my opinion.

I had a dog that seemed to know the difference between good and bad, heck he even had emotions! So someone who loves their dog does not receive love from that animal back? or if you beat a dog does he not look at you as being bad?

reply to post by 1nOne


From Lamentations of Jeremiah the Prophet chapter 3;

Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?

Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?