US should return stolen land to Indian tribes, says United Nations

Originally posted by aching_knuckles

Who wants a handout...but natives have been systematically repressed for hundreds of years...how are you supposed to compete in the race when everyone else has a 200 meter head start?? I know many natives who are successful obviously, but if you have ever been on a res, you know that some people need help, badly.

I agree and respect them not asking for handouts and I agree it is best to make a way for yourself so you gain self respect and self worth and can hopefully find enough peace in life to get to a point where you can feel happy and content in life. I think the problem though is in defining specifically what kind of "help" folks require. I know homeless people of many different races and some of them just don't want to be a part of society, so how can you help them when they depend on the very thing they reject?

Originally posted by Xaphan

Originally posted by Jagermeister
Go join occupy wallstreet and demand free stuff with the rest of the people that want Government to hold their hand through life.

Ignorant philistine. They aren't demanding to have a free ride through life. They are demanding an end to all financial corruption. It's long overdue.

You know what I'm all for that. But you do not come into my country and demand free land simply because you think you are entitled to it. End the corruption though by all means.

Originally posted by frazzle

Originally posted by JBRiddle
What we American did to the natives population was wrong. Pushing people on to reservations to die is a horrible thing. We should have take a page out of Romes play book and Romanized them. I say do away with the reservations, and the Bureau of Indian Affairs and make all the native peoples Americans once and for all.

Sure it might be seen as the white man disregarding treaties with the native populations (which it would be), but this would be the last and finial time. After this time there will be no more tribes on reservations just Americans.

What if people on the reservations don't want to be assimilated or Americanized? That's already been tried as far back as the 1950s, which was called "homogenization" and "removal and termination". Children were abducted and forced into American schools as far back as the 1800s for that same purpose and others left out of need and became sort of an underclass in the cities because nobody really wanted them there or treated them equally. Many have gone to college and gotten their degrees and ended up going back to their reservations because living in their own culture is important to them. Ben Nighthorse Campbell became a US representative from Colorado. There is no one size fits all.

If you're interested in what was tried in the past and why it failed, www.museumca.org...

Well, I don't blame you for not wanting to be abducted into the John Dewey Marxist Hegelian educational system.

Dewey's most positive value is positive change for the better. He was so recognized as a leader of new ideas concerning humanism ie synonym for socialism that he was invited to teach on establishing state schools for the betterment of the state. He taught in China at the University of Peking and in Turkey. Upon Dewey's return to California, he wrote an Americanized version of Karl Marx philosophies called "The Humanist Manifesto". He believes in the collective society like socialist of Russia and China being more important than any individualism. He views people as members of the larger society, to the exclusion of individual rights when the perceived needs of society would require the exclusion of personal rights. This thinking permeates the N.E.A today as a result of his works and others who followed in his footsteps. The state rights over individual rights is associated with the recent event in Pennsylvania where state authorities forced fifty young girls to be spread eagled on an examination table, for genital inspection, without parent's knowledge or consent. Such is the consequence of giving up individual rights to the state system.

www.christianparents.com...

But then I have a feeling your sentiment is more towards the early Christian education. I do want to say I wouldn't trust these Marxist fellows as they view the State as supreme and the individual existing for the State, so if you put your trust in them you will only sacrifice more of your individuality. They dangle the carrot...

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by OneEleven

 

Yes, life was a great deal harder in terms of daily living. Look at the pioneers. A bath was a luxury and it had to be drawn and heated by boiling water. People burned candles for light at night. Someone had to make the candles. Wolves howled in the night and people needed guns to protect themselves. Fires had to be burned to keep warm. That meant that wood had to be cut and kept by the house. OH wait, the environmentalists don't want us burning wood because it hurts the trees.
Need I tell you how fun it was to get sick then? Now if you rewind even further in the past, how fun was the black plague? Hmmm? How fun was drawing water out of the well? oh yes that was how the black plague spread...
Really do you want to kill your own buffalo and heat it over the fire? Or wait maybe you are vegetarian and eat only berries picked from a nearby bush. Ever read "Clan of the Cave Bear"? Really do you want to live like that? Or do you by chance already live like this in the wild? I wonder. How do you access the Internet? Oh life would be great without your computer. Try connecting to the Internet without POTS or Broadband or wireless towers.

edit on 5-5-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

edit on 5-5-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

I see so much wrong with this post. The natives didn't have wells, they drank straight from pure streams and rivers. Try that today. As for cleanliness, the natives dove right into the water, weather notwithstanding, regularly. The churches, otoh, taught their congregations that taking more than one bath a month was unhealthy and I've heard that the Indians back then claimed they could smell a white man coming long before they ever saw him.

The black plague? Not in America. The plague in America was from small pox soiled blankets the Indians were "given". They had no resistance to this white man's disease and according to George Catlin, who was there at the time, small pox was "the great destroyer of the Indian race". Not superior weaponry or better military tactics.

But their lives couldn't have been further removed from the activities of pioneers and settlers. And now we have kids who sit at their electronic gizmos getting fatter and stupider every day. Indian kids, when in their element, were learning about their environment and how to survive and thrive in it. White kids did that, too. Now the environment has been corrupted, for them and for us. Yeah, we're so much better off.

And finally, the US army, gold miners and settlers shot entire buffalo herds from the platforms of trains and left them to rot in the dirt until there was nothing left for the natives to eat. Okay? Now look at the boycotts and embargoes going on today against our concocted enemies. We haven't changed our mind games or our tactics one iota. And we never minded playing dirty.

Originally posted by aching_knuckles

Originally posted by rival

Originally posted by aching_knuckles

Originally posted by rival

I'll make all you ~illegal aliens~ a deal...Elect Ron Paul as your "leader guy"

...and we'll call it even

Yikes...Im afraid you are mistaken. That man would immediately destroy any aid program for any native person, as he thinks they are unconstitutional. That means what little help there is to try and draw even, he would immediately wipe out. Why would you support that??

Because i don't need handouts. I believe to each his own...and Ron Paul scores lower on my BS meter
than any other politician in years.

edit on 5-5-2012 by rival because: (no reason given)

Who wants a handout...but natives have been systematically repressed for hundreds of years...how are you supposed to compete in the race when everyone else has a 200 meter head start?? I know many natives who are successful obviously, but if you have ever been on a res, you know that some people need help, badly.

Then get the hell off the reservation?! How are you being repressed when you refuse to even leave your house? That's like me sitting here complaining that I can't find a job because I refuse to get off the couch. I'm repressed because I can't shut the tv off not because there is some hidden agenda to hold the indian back.

Originally posted by frazzle

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by OneEleven

 

Yes, life was a great deal harder in terms of daily living. Look at the pioneers. A bath was a luxury and it had to be drawn and heated by boiling water. People burned candles for light at night. Someone had to make the candles. Wolves howled in the night and people needed guns to protect themselves. Fires had to be burned to keep warm. That meant that wood had to be cut and kept by the house. OH wait, the environmentalists don't want us burning wood because it hurts the trees.
Need I tell you how fun it was to get sick then? Now if you rewind even further in the past, how fun was the black plague? Hmmm? How fun was drawing water out of the well? oh yes that was how the black plague spread...
Really do you want to kill your own buffalo and heat it over the fire? Or wait maybe you are vegetarian and eat only berries picked from a nearby bush. Ever read "Clan of the Cave Bear"? Really do you want to live like that? Or do you by chance already live like this in the wild? I wonder. How do you access the Internet? Oh life would be great without your computer. Try connecting to the Internet without POTS or Broadband or wireless towers.

edit on 5-5-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

edit on 5-5-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

I see so much wrong with this post. The natives didn't have wells, they drank straight from pure streams and rivers. Try that today. As for cleanliness, the natives dove right into the water, weather notwithstanding, regularly. The churches, otoh, taught their congregations that taking more than one bath a month was unhealthy and I've heard that the Indians back then claimed they could smell a white man coming long before they ever saw him.

The black plague? Not in America. The plague in America was from small pox soiled blankets the Indians were "given". They had no resistance to this white man's disease and according to George Catlin, who was there at the time, small pox was "the great destroyer of the Indian race". Not superior weaponry or better military tactics.

But their lives couldn't have been further removed from the activities of pioneers and settlers. And now we have kids who sit at their electronic gizmos getting fatter and stupider every day. Indian kids, when in their element, were learning about their environment and how to survive and thrive in it. White kids did that, too. Now the environment has been corrupted, for them and for us. Yeah, we're so much better off.

And finally, the US army, gold miners and settlers shot entire buffalo herds from the platforms of trains and left them to rot in the dirt until there was nothing left for the natives to eat. Okay? Now look at the boycotts and embargoes going on today against our concocted enemies. We haven't changed our mind games or our tactics one iota. And we never minded playing dirty.

Yes I understand that many wish to return to this idea of pristine living, including many environmentalists. If you want to talk about that, do you want to hunt buffalo? Do you want your woman to have her baby by the river as they did then? I posted about pioneers because life was hard for them. I dare you to go out in the wilderness and live like your ancestors. There's plenty of land where I am right now, completely unsettled. This state I am temporarily in has the least amount of population.
Clan of the Cave Bear was also living close to the land and they traveled in packs as nomads and the women collected berries and nuts along the way.
I understand that you are harboring anger at early miners and others. I somehow doubt that you seriously want to hunt buffalo to live and are hankering for moccasins and arrows. If you are well good luck to you.

Yes, you are right the Black Plague was in Europe. Would you like to go back to those times either? That is my point. Life was hard all through the ages. Trying to go back to some pristine way of life will always yield a life without lights or proper sewage or good doctors or whatever. Unless you want a witch doctor to treat you. Your choice man.

Oh yes, and too bad the kids aren't playing with tomahawks?

You know what the road to hell is paved in good intentions. All you people that believe in the mythical indian man that did absolutely nothing wrong are a bunch of loons. These people were killing each other long before the white man ever showed up. And the best part is they don't want to go hunt in the wild - I could atleast respect that if it were the case. All they want is free land handed to them on your dime while they spin you fairy tales. These people are immigrants themselves and are not even native to the land they demand. Stop being so gullible.

Originally posted by aching_knuckles

Originally posted by dayve
Screw their land.... they got casinos all over the place and reservations, with their own laws and governments. Plus each of them getting 3k+ a month seems like this should never be brought up again.... Someone needs to snatch the land right back from under their feet. Greedy indians

This post is a perfect example of extreme ignorance. All "indians get 3k a month"?? Wow I should tell my family that. Generally, alot of places off the res wont accept or even know how to process the tax free transactions we are supposed to legally get. So maybe before you spout off, you should know what you are talking about....greedy American.

Most indians i know dont even live on a res and get paid, most of it is for casino prophet. Maybe im a greedy ignorant American, but im not gonna sit with my hand out expecting people to pay for what my ancestors went through. They didnt take our land but took us from our land and made slaves out of em

There are plenty of Natives sitting on reservation taking the "dole" as the English put it.
But we're not repressed anymore, I'm not. I don't even think about it unless a thread like this
comes up.

Here's what it's like for me. I get free medical care from a "sort of" strip mall health clinic-hospital.
It's like a Baskin Robbins of medicine; diabetes-aisle nine, arthritis-aisle two, and prescriptions
are picked up as you check out. The VERY cool, thing about this system is the efficiency
with which it runs. Because it is not-for-profit it is the most highly efficient health care I have
ever seen. You literally can go in for a root canal, a benign tumor removal and a kidney stone
in the same day. It will all be scheduled for you...in and out.

Also, there is no "stipend" or monthly payment even though my tribe is wealthy. If you want to
complain and pull all the strings, you can get tax exemptions, and aid for going to college, or
attending trade school. and there are a few other perks, like claiming minority status at a
job interview (if the drunken indian stereotype doesn't negate that particular benefit).

But I could care less, we all all human, we all live, we all die, and we don't get to take ANYTHING
with us when we leave this planet.

That being said, the UN can cram it. They have NO jurisdiction to even have an opinion
as they didn't even exist at the time.

IMO, this is just more race-baiting to garner the sympathy vote for Obama again, and I ain't
buying into it again. BTW, I'm sorry I voted for Obama the first time...it won't happen again

reply to post by karen61057


If they never owned the land then how could we ever have bought it in the first place? Paradox much?

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus


Yes I understand that many wish to return to this idea of pristine living, including many environmentalists. If you want to talk about that, do you want to hunt buffalo? Do you want your woman to have her baby by the river as they did then? I posted about pioneers because life was hard for them. I dare you to go out in the wilderness and live like your ancestors. There's plenty of land where I am right now, completely unsettled. This state I am temporarily in has the least amount of population.
Clan of the Cave Bear was also living close to the land and they traveled in packs as nomads and the women collected berries and nuts along the way.
I understand that you are harboring anger at early miners and others. I somehow doubt that you seriously want to hunt buffalo to live and are hankering for moccasins and arrows. If you are well good luck to you.

What I'm saying has nothing to do with returning to the past, that isn't even an option and we all know it. Its about looking a little harder and more honestly at some of the mistakes of the past and trying not to make bigger, more modern mistakes. The idea that we might need to be "told" by a "higher authority" that we should clean up our dirty doorstep is beyond sad.

Clan of the Cave Bear is fiction. FICTION. Fun read, though.

Incidentally, all of my grandchildren were born at home and they're all grown up and heathy. The question is, why would any thinking woman go to the place where the worst germs congregate to have a child?

reply to post by SonofLeod


The Europeans and the like didn't buy the land, it was taken by force. Sure there were some treaty's and things of that nature that were passed but it always turned out the Natives got stuffed in the end. Someone else would come along and go against the treaty because of greed, they wanted more and more land and before you knew it the Natives were being marched ruthlessly throughout the country. Ever hear of the trail of tears? It's all a sham in the end, no one should have to pay to live on land. Hell the Natives knew what was right by having everyone pitch in and earn their keep without payment, your payment was shelter and food.

Originally posted by frazzle

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus


Yes I understand that many wish to return to this idea of pristine living, including many environmentalists. If you want to talk about that, do you want to hunt buffalo? Do you want your woman to have her baby by the river as they did then? I posted about pioneers because life was hard for them. I dare you to go out in the wilderness and live like your ancestors. There's plenty of land where I am right now, completely unsettled. This state I am temporarily in has the least amount of population.
Clan of the Cave Bear was also living close to the land and they traveled in packs as nomads and the women collected berries and nuts along the way.
I understand that you are harboring anger at early miners and others. I somehow doubt that you seriously want to hunt buffalo to live and are hankering for moccasins and arrows. If you are well good luck to you.

What I'm saying has nothing to do with returning to the past, that isn't even an option and we all know it. Its about looking a little harder and more honestly at some of the mistakes of the past and trying not to make bigger, more modern mistakes. The idea that we might need to be "told" by a "higher authority" that we should clean up our dirty doorstep is beyond sad.

Clan of the Cave Bear is fiction. FICTION. Fun read, though.

Incidentally, all of my grandchildren were born at home and they're all grown up and heathy. The question is, why would any thinking woman go to the place where the worst germs congregate to have a child?

Finally some sanity. I must have been talking to cave bear chief before. Jokes aside, these are issues that we as Americans need to work on together. Not "natives" (I really hate that word) and black and asian and white Americans. No all Americans need to build a better future for everyone together.

reply to post by rival


That being said, the UN can cram it. They have NO jurisdiction to even have an opinion
as they didn't even exist at the time.

Sadly, they do have jurisdiction. Its called a treaty and isn't that the most amazing thing? Our leaders actually want to abide by this particular treaty. If nothing else worries us, that should.

This is a problem that has been with the US for years, and will continue to be a problem for years to come. It will continue until the US stops supporting the Native peoples, and has them join the rest of society, as part of the country.

While the history of the country is not one for debate, as it is littered with broken promises and treaties, save one. For years the policy was to try to destroy and that was found to be not a good policy and hence was turned around slowly. But change has to be slow, and the question is what good would it do if the native people were given all of the land that they claim back? And could it be proven that it was their land in the first place, as the history shows that they are constantly moving and migrating from point to point. Wars between the native tribes in competition for lands and resources are a part of their history.

The UN means well, but fails to see how such would benefit’s the tribes, or how that the tribes with casino’s do not share the wealth with others who do not have such. It is a complex system, and ultimately, there is one other little aspect that the UN report does not mention, that while there are 310 reservations, that equates out to 310 different countries. The Reservations do not or are not obligated to follow state law, rather they have to follow federal law. Any crime that happens on a reservation that is not committed by one of the natives, is considered automatically a federal crime.

Pumping money or throwing money at a problem, where it is more social and cultural, does not work. Native Americans are given more opportunity to excel, even to the point where there are federal grants in the works to preserve the language and culture of the different tribes. Combine that with the face that even though they know that the federal government does not play fair, they continue to sign the same treaties, thinking it would be different. There is nothing to stop someone who is native American, from going to college and leaving the reservation, or even becoming a leader in their industry, to bring back jobs to the reservations, save one thing, and that is the reservation itself and the different governments that control said lands. They do not want to change, in an every changing world, and that ultimately leads to the problems that are faced. Then the question of what happens when the money runs out and there is no more, they would be in the same spot as they are right now. The solution, and it is painful for both sides, is to meet and end the reservation system, having them join society and live, not to say where it appears to be hopeless.

Originally posted by pierregustavetoutant
That's a lot of land for the 3 American Indians that still exist.

There are plenty of us still here. I may not be full blooded but then again how many americans are? Justice for the redskins!

Originally posted by Jagermeister
But you do not come into my country and demand free land simply because you think you are entitled to it.

How ironic.....dont you suppose that how the indigenous people the world over feel about European influence??

reply to post by Jagermeister


Jagermeister: Jokes aside, these are issues that we as Americans need to work on together. Not "natives" (I really hate that word) and black and asian and white Americans. No all Americans need to build a better future for everyone together.

Agreed, absolutely. I couldn't care less what someone calls me. But we would need a better foundation to build that future upon. Understanding the mistakes of the past (none of which any of us personally perpetrated) and treating one another with dignity and respect seem to be major stumbling blocks for all sides in this debate.

reply to post by Jagermeister


"You're country"? lmao my friend your ignorance is showing. "Welcome to the United States of Jagermeister"

Originally posted by Irish614
reply to post by Jagermeister

 

"You're country"? lmao my friend your ignorance is showing. "Welcome to the United States of Jagermeister"

I was born here. I am just as much a native to this country than anyone else. Besides, a country full of Jager? Sign me up. That's a hell of an export.