How to make someone senseless before surgical procedure...

reply to post by rebellender


With such an attitude people will die around you anyway...just wait and watch them die because you do not dare to take a chance to safe someone. This is serious busines brother...trying to think ahead, being informed is what it will be all about in shtf senarios. You be nice and keep yourself safe in your box,...

reply to post by zatara


You can soft-choke someone to make them pass out, but they won't stay passed out for long as if you choke them too much they'll never wake up!

Originally posted by RealSpoke
I don't think there is really a safe way to do it without drugs. If a person experiences enough pain they go into cardiac arrest and die.

I don't agree with you...

Shock can happen regardless of conscious state.

As far as appendix removal goes, not something I would fancy doing and I have medical experience and training. Best possible advise is Prevention is Better than cure, get any medical ailments sorted as soon as you can, before the shtf ideally.

I am currently going through much pain and discomfort because I am trying to get various things on myself sorted. If you currently suffer from medical conditions that can be fixed now, why wait for the shtf to get them fixed.

Basically look after yourself now when life is normal and services are available. If something goes wrong should shtf then unfortunately that's the way it is, treat what you can but know your limits.

I have said many times in the past regarding anything medical in a POW/SHTF scenario, don't worry about the heart attacks/appendix problems, you are more likely going to be taken out by infection from a small cut. Stock up if possible on Antibiotics, and don’t get into the habit of taking them when not needed. This allows them to be most effective when you really need them.

Consider Sedation instead of General Anaesthetics any day of the week.
Levels of consciousness have a massive bearing on the patient’s ability to maintain their own airway, too far under and they will lose that ability and unless you have the kit/knowledge to take care of their airway you will lose them anyways.
Sedation on the other hand will lessen the level of consciousness to a point that the patient can tolerate much more pain/stress but should leave the autonomic systems to take care of life support.

Unfortunately if the shtf really does happen, be prepared to make some hard/serious decisions both for friends/family or anyone that may depend on you and also be prepared for others to make the same difficult decisions about you and your well being.

Natural Anaesthetic, Yarrow is a natural plant that is about 12" high, and has a large, flat, white, and top made of small flowers. Pull it up, and the plump, short, purple roots have a juice inside that releases an anaesthetic that numbs. It is very useful to use to relieve tooth pain.

Alcoholic beverages, particularly whiskey and other strong liquors, were "natural" anaesthetics used throughout history in order to deaden pain before an operation such as removing a tooth or even an entire limb. This is because alcohol is a depressant which acts on the entire body and its systems and enough of it will cause blackouts and possible unconsciousness.

Who knows what we would face if things went down the pan, what decisions we may face and what situations we could find ourselves in. Know your limits and as above, be prepared to make decisions you would never have dreamt you would have to make but in the same breath understand why others may have to make the same decisions about you.

Remember the Hypocratic oath, first do no harm. In the original oath was a vow not to perform surgery. Hypocrates didn't know the cause of sepsis or traumatic shock, but he knew their results.

Our culture knows more than his did. Do you know more than him? This was the man who defined cancer.

Star Traveller (and the commenter who mentioned opium) really nailed this. If you're not not trained and equipped, the best you can do is find something to ease the suffering. And sometimes that reduction of trauma will help them pull through.

there will come a time when you just have to accept there is nothing you can do and survival of the fittest. you cant just hack people and let them die slow deaths of infection.....and if before the "shtf" time comes, if you feel like practising on anything, seek help cause you have gone to far with this whole thing.

reply to post by RealSpoke


Even with drugs this can be a very dangerous thing.
This is why anesthesiologists make a fortune.
They are the ones who balance your body on the edge of the abyss, too much and you go over, too little and you wake and go into shock possibly.

OP, there is no for sure thing, shock is a killer, even moreso in a field hospital situation.

Investigate ether.
It was used as an early anesthetic during the 1800's.
A source for ether might be found in a spray can of diesel engine starting fluid.

Another option would be chloroform, I believe that would be more hazardous.

ETA: Or read this link.... Wikipedia- Anesthesia
It reminded me about one that is still used, nitrous oxide.

If you research a lot on the subject, nightshade (in minute amounts) has been used as an anesthetic. Also, henbane. Yarrow root is an anesthetic (mainly for mouth and tooth pain-dentistry).

a reply to: zatara

just my opinion - but :

i would have grave reservations about the advisability of a person committing surgery if they need to ask ` how do we make the victim unconcious `

thats the polite response - and the wording is intentional

hmmm. well maybe natural stuff...I think some toads have tetradotoxin...you'd have to have a way to concentrate enough to get an effective dose. toothache plant has an anesthetic effect. if ingested in quantity though it causes vomiting and in lesser quantities it does not cause unconsciousness. there is a carrot look alike called water hemlock. it's lethal. just touching it and then your mucus membranes can be really bad. I wonder if a smaller than lethal dose is possible?

at any rate there are probably other natural sources of anesthetic or sophoric substances depending on locale. though i would recommend avoiding this sort of thing unless there is no option other than certain immediate death.

here is a video of a silly random plant sampler trying toothache plant on youtube:



a place to buy: www.rareseeds.com...

also:

books.google.com... YTC1Sim4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwic76W37NPKAhVG5CYKHbVwCYEQ6AEINjAE#v=onepage&q=anesthetic%20plants%20of%20north%20america&f=false

jamestown weed. also known as jimson weed. datura plants in general.

on researching i think none of the toads that contain tetradotoxin are native. local toads are more likely to to have bufotoxins. so that leaves plants, mushrooms, toadstools, mollusks, pufferfish...

but tetradotoxin in low quantities can cause unconsciousness but in larger quantities can cause coma and more probably, -death by paralyzing of breathing and heartbeat.

I read an article about awake brain surgery performed under hypnosis
arstechnica.co.uk...


Having had this surgery myself, I had a mild anesthetic that meant I could remain awake, without feeling any pain, you have to stay awake so you can communicate with the surgeon so they know they havnt damaged your speech functions

on reading further the form of water hemlock available in the US has a toxic dose so close to the fatal dose level that it is most unwise to try to use it as an anesthetic.

The type the Greek state used for capital punishment most famously for Socrates in 399 BC is likely a different species (conium.) This type is not found in america.

originally posted by: stormbringer1701
on reading further the form of water hemlock available in the US has a toxic dose so close to the fatal dose level that it is most unwise to try to use it as an anesthetic.

The type the Greek state used for capital punishment most famously for Socrates in 399 BC is likely a different species (conium.) This type is not found in america.

Conium most certainly IS found in America. Otherwise known as poison hemlock. There are several stands of it close to where I live. There's also water hemlock here. Passed some just the other day while I was out foraging for elderberries.

Ether. Chloroform. Certain Carefully administered species of Datura. But all three of these of course would have to be done with a great deal of working knowledge of these substances. Otherwise death or coma will, of course, inevitably result. Alcohol is not recommended - the subject will bleed out.

a reply to: stormbringer1701
Water Hemlock is the most toxic plant found in North America and should never be ingested in any quantity.
Datura, on the other hand is an effective anesthesia if administered by a knowledgeable herbalist. That said, Datura is a very dangerous plant if used by anyone without extensive knowledge and experience with it.

You would be best to use hypnosis to prepare them for surgery. Used extensively on the battlefields of World War 1, many operations (thousands) being performed successfully using solely the power of hypnosis.