What legitimizes Christianity beyond the bible?

first off, I am an agnostic. so you may see some bias, I assure you it's not on purpose, I want this thread to refrain from mudslinging and the like.

What gives Christianity it's right to exist as a religion?
What draws people to it's teachings?
Why does it have teachings at all?
Why are the teachings of Christianity centered so far away from reality?

these questions might offend some Christians, I don't mean them in any hostile nature,
it's just that my perception of reality seems infinitely removed from what Christians talk about and seem to feel.

What is it about Christianity, beyond the bible, that gives it any sense of credibility in these times of science?
faith?

reply to post by yourmaker


While some may not like to admit it Christianity is nothing but the interpretations of a fiction book.

Its legitimacy supposedly comes from the 'morals' it teaches, which really are not christian but human morals.

Its strongest legitimacy tho is numbers, its a social thing. Without its millions of followers it would just be regarded as another crazy cult, which it is. People forget that the people who told them Christianity and the bible are real were forced to believe that.

Christianity is manipulation and should not be trusted.

reply to post by yourmaker


What gives is a right to exist is simply that people believe in it and propagate its ideas.
Its original appeal was to the poor, it was a non-exclusive religion which helped it take root in Roman society.
It has teaching because like any religion, movement, whatever, you have to say something if you want people to follow you.
Keep in mind that objective reality is an illusion, but the idea that there is something greater than ourselves has a strong pull on people for some reason.

I think what gives it credibility is for some it provides a sense of social cohesion, and doesn't make them feel stupid.

Overall though I completely agree with you, it is unfathomable to me that people believe in some magical god who set up a universe to sit in judgement of our actions after we die.

In today's world, religiously-oriented people want two things: Freedom and a sense of something greater that gives them hope and purpose in this bleak world. Many religions give the latter but it usually comes with a lot of religions laws that are not compatible with modern living. Christianity doesn't. It is very easily liberalized because people focus on Jesus' "don't judge, don't hurt, love everybody, you're going to heaven as long as you accept me as your savior (whatever that means to you)" to the practical exclusion of the rest of the Bible. There is no asceticism like there is with Buddhism, no complicated mythology like with Hinduism, no detailed order of living like with Judaism and Islam. It is the easiest path to follow because it's the least demanding and simplest mainstream religion out there.

Nothing, thats why its a faith.
The bible itself is scripture teaching scripture. There is a lot of history and science contained within its pages that has been verified but if you want to see what verifies it the most is the millions and millions of people who follow/ed Jesus as the Messiah
It teaches what no other religion teaches. Grace and servitude, grace from God and servitude to fellow man. Christians dont have to do anything to earn it... nothing. Its a gift.
There is no demands placed on the Christian other than to serve his fellow man in love as Jesus did.
Granted most Christians fail miserably (I am one who fails), but grace abounds in Jesus to us.
Its a Gospel of peace.....and its not for everyone only those chosen. Ephesians 1.
If its not revealed to you its not for you.
and I will guarantee 90% of what you believe is Christianity is wrong, most people even most Christians dont understand Christianity is a relationship based faith. God to man. Most Christians still think God serves them.

Its unfathomable that some people dont think they will have to account for their actions, we wouldnt have a consciounce if we were not accountable

reply to post by Reddupo


Wow...that what a great response! While i agree, i think its also one of the most dangerous (for lack of a better term) religions in that it seems to retard the gaining of knowledge. Many of the eastern religions promote the gaining of knowledge. The Abrahamic religions seem to declare their respective holy books as the end all, be all to everything there is to know about life. This is the most disturbing part to me. I think the question the OP poses is a very valid one.

reply to post by yourmaker


Well you have to be careful here when you say beyond the Bible. The Bible wasn't written like other books.

But it works the same way with any historical event or person. Like we don't know if Socrates was real for example or if all the pharaos were real or all the roman emperors were real or anyone in history that matter. We weren't there. Everything we know about history is based on writings from people which could have just been stories. We don't even know if Abe Lincoln was real, we weren't there. But we can assume he was based on what we have.

Sure you can say, well it's just a bunch of writings. That doesn't prove anything. But then you're basically discounting all of history right along with it. For example we have better writings about Jesus than we do some of the emperors or philosophers that we never doubt existed. Truth of it is, if you throw the Bible out, then by the same standards, you bascially have to throw out all ancient history with it and that doesn't sound very logical.

The Bible is a collection of books that tell the beliefs of the authors. The NT is written as a testimony. Think like someone on the witness stand in a courtroom testifying to what happened. You're the jury and you either believe what the witnesses say or you don't.

But when you say, what outside the Bible backs up the Bible? You're forgetting the Bible wasn't put together like other books. The NT is not a single book by a single author with a single agenda. It is a collection of books by a collection of authors written at different times and places and put together as a whole later. In other words, it's more than one book all of which are outside themselves.

All the NT books USED to be OUTSIDE the Bible. Used to be all there was, was the OT. Everything else used to be a seperate book by a seperate author. When you say, what writings outside the Bible back up Christianity? Well every single book in the NT backs up the Bible. This is what they mean when they say the NT backs itself up.

There are some other writings by historians that mention Jesus, and whole other Gospels by even more authors, but the point is you don't wanna discount every book in the Bible simply because it's in the Bible. I'll show you why.

For example we all know JFK was real. There's plenty of books that tell the life of JFK. But what if we took every book about JFK and put them together into a single collection called the JFK Bible? Could you then turn around say, oh that means JFK didn't exist? That he was a mythical figure cause there's no proof of him outside the JFK Bible? Well no, there used to be proof OUTSIDE the JFK Bible, but you went and put it INSIDE the JFK Bible. That doesn't mean it goes from being true to mythical.

No you can't dissappear someone from history just because you took all their historical writings and put them into a single collection. It doesn't work that way. If it did then that would mean you probably don't exist because the government takes everything it knows about you and puts it in one big NSA file.

Does that mean you're not real because there's nothing OUTSIDE your NSA file to prove you exist lol? No of course you exist. All your documents just got put in the same file is all. The NT works the same way. It's just a collection of writings about Jesus. You can either believe them or not, but that's up to you.

But you can't say a document is true or not true simply because of which file folder it's in. There could be a true one and a false one right next to each other in the same folder. That's the best way I can say it.

This video may also help. It's from an atheist scholar that doesn't believe Jesus was God, but knows how historical writings work.

Originally posted by nunya13
reply to post by Reddupo

 

Wow...that what a great response! While i agree, i think its also one of the most dangerous (for lack of a better term) religions in that it seems to retard the gaining of knowledge. Many of the eastern religions promote the gaining of knowledge. The Abrahamic religions seem to declare their respective holy books as the end all, be all to everything there is to know about life. This is the most disturbing part to me. I think the question the OP poses is a very valid one.

Wow...that what a pathetic response! I completely disagree. One of the greatest dangers atheism has is its lack of compassion. Christianity and Christs followers have promoted the sciences and made some of the greatest leaps for humanity ever. To deny that is to accept ignorance in its completest forms.
God has promised everything will be made known and contained within that promise it the desire for Christians to search, you cry and complain because Christianity contends against evils that you desire.

It is a progressive religion of morales, morales you deny

A list of Christians whose understanding of science changed the world
www.godandscience.org...


Deny ignorance DONT embrace it

Originally posted by yourmaker
first off, I am an agnostic. so you may see some bias, I assure you it's not on purpose, I want this thread to refrain from mudslinging and the like.

What gives Christianity it's right to exist as a religion?
What draws people to it's teachings?
Why does it have teachings at all?
Why are the teachings of Christianity centered so far away from reality?

these questions might offend some Christians, I don't mean them in any hostile nature,
it's just that my perception of reality seems infinitely removed from what Christians talk about and seem to feel.

What is it about Christianity, beyond the bible, that gives it any sense of credibility in these times of science?
faith?

1 Everything
2 Who cares?
3 Who cares?
4 LINK

reply to post by longjohnbritches


You think talking snakes, talking bushes on fire, invisible sky men, people made out of dirt and a rib, people turning into salt is reality? I really hope you dont.

Originally posted by yourmaker
What gives Christianity it's right to exist as a religion?

Everyone has the right to believe what they believe. Religions don't have to earn the right to exist.

Originally posted by yourmaker
What draws people to it's teachings?

A belief that many of us were raised in, teaches we all have someone in the sky who loves us, that we don't have to miss our loved ones, and that we'll never truly die and be with them better off in the next life. A belief that's culturally seen as morally superior, and people who don't hold it are often seen as inferior. A belief that gives a sense of community, and provides a sense of guidance for those who can't guide themselves.

Who wouldn't be drawn to Christianity?

Originally posted by yourmaker
Why does it have teachings at all?

The bible writers put their views on what was good or bad in their writings. They wrote Mythology to match their Philosophy. Churches constantly reinterpret to suit the times.

Again, this goes back to a Religions right to exist. Of course, for a religion to form, it must have some kind of teachings.

Originally posted by yourmaker
Why are the teachings of Christianity centered so far away from reality?

Because we don't innately understand reality. Instead, our understanding of it constantly grows. Simply, the ideas they held were based on their understanding of reality. In the modern day, our understanding has moved far on from that primitive point.

Originally posted by yourmaker
What is it about Christianity, beyond the bible, that gives it any sense of credibility in these times of science?
faith?

I don't understand "Beyond the Bible." That's implying the bible is proof. The fact is, if the bible could be proven inspired, or flawlessly accurate, that would essentially be all the proof one would need, and the issue of interpretation would be the topic. However, there's no secular scientific evidence showing any factual support for the bible being inspired, or Christianity being correct. Instead, Every relevant scientific discovery we've had that weren't made before it was written, have shown the exact opposite.

~
Christianity is real in that people believe in it, but, I can't really say it's claims are factual. I'd feel this to be obvious enough, that I'm a little lost at what exactly your angle is here.

reply to post by yourmaker


What legitimizes Christianity beyond the Bible is personal experience.

Many people have their belief confirmed through answered prayers, supernatural experiences, or by validating their life experience against the Bible's teachings to see if the predicted cause and effect relationships hold true.

For example, when you lie or steal, you run the chance of getting caught and causing yourself and others misfortune. Bernie Madoff did both and now he sits in a jail and his son committed suicide. While not every person who lies and steal will be caught, the longer a person behaves this way, the higher the probability that they will get caught at some point and cause negative experiences for themselves and their communities.

The basis of Christianity is a written history of a people who were trying to identify the best social rules and framework for long-term group success. The literal Bible is a social experiment that documents both failures and successes, as it relates to group harmony and prosperity. Similar to science, you can duplicate their experiments by observing the world or your own life to test whether you get the same results and can draw the same conclusions.

Originally posted by xxsomexpersonxx
I'd feel this to be obvious enough, that I'm a little lost at what exactly your angle is here.

I want different perspectives on the matter. if I am to continue piecing together true unbiased thoughts of what reality is, I must take into account your views as well so I can remove any illogical premises relative to our collective reality from the bigger picture.

The major underlying question would be where does the inspiration for Christianity come from?

and if such things like a God and Satan do exist like many many people DO believe in,
where is the evidence of such? what is the basis for their creation?

Originally posted by MaryStillToe
reply to post by yourmaker

 

What legitimizes Christianity beyond the Bible is personal experience.

Many people have their belief confirmed through answered prayers, supernatural experiences, or by validating their life experience against the Bible's teachings to see if the predicted cause and effect relationships hold true.

While this notion is true, it shouldnt be like that. Belief in anything should be based on Evidence. And plus dont you think that the Jews that died in the Holocaust preyed or that the kids starving in Africa prey? Think about it.

Originally posted by yourmaker

Originally posted by xxsomexpersonxx
I'd feel this to be obvious enough, that I'm a little lost at what exactly your angle is here.

I want different perspectives on the matter. if I am to continue piecing together true unbiased thoughts of what reality is, I must take into account your views as well so I can remove any illogical premises relative to our collective reality from the bigger picture.

The major underlying question would be where does the inspiration for Christianity come from?

and if such things like a God and Satan do exist like many many people DO believe in,
where is the evidence of such? what is the basis for their creation?

I think you're trying to apply science to an area where it doesn't apply. Christianity is all about the life of a historical figure known as Jesus who's already come and gone in the physical sense. The NT isn't like the OT.

When you're talking about historical people there's no scientific test that someone named Jesus existed or anything like that. Science doesn't apply there, it's a completely different field of study.

This area is covered by historical documents and literary scholars. Like I said the Bible is like a bunch of witnesses on the witness stand just giving their story. You either believe their story or you don't. But remember, witness testimony is very important. We still sentence people to the death penalty on nothing but testimony to this day so you can't completely discount it.

If a society is willing to sentence people to death just because of what another person said, then that same society should also be able to accept other types of testimony as well. Especially from early Christians that were persecuted, murdered, and crucified for not recanting their testimony of Jesus. If you can't believe that guy's story, well then you can't trust anyone lol.

But the bottom line is you're the jury and you have to decide if you think it's true or not.

But like I said, science doesn't apply. Like there's no scientific test to prove my name is really Mike. Because my name isn't really Mike. Physically I don't have a name at all. It's just an abstract label my mom gave me.

Now a scholar can show you historical documents like my birth certificate to prove that's the name my mom gave me, but there's no scientific test you can apply on the chemicals in my body and PROVE that I'm actually a Mike. That's the job of historical writings to solve.

Same thing after I die. You may find my tombstone that says Mike on it, and say see Mike existed. But the writing on my tombstone is just that, a historical writing that someone wrote down. There's no test you could do on the corpse to see if I actually went by the name Mike or that the great "Mike" existed in reality. I could have went by Bob for 80 years, dropped dead, and then someone put the wrong tombstone there for all we know. Science can't tell us if there was really a Mike.

But historical documents can.

It's not a question for science. Was there really a person named Jesus and did he do the things people claimed he did? That's for historians to argue about.

And you know what? That doesn't seem to be a problem for other ancient historical figures. But when it comes to Jesus we need a scientific test that Jesus was really Jesus? Well how about a scientific test that Socrates was really Socrates? lol, that's impossible. A name isn't a physical thing. It's an abstract thing that can only be recorded on paper and the events of that person's life because they didn't have video cameras back then. Not that it would help because people would just say it was CGI anyway. Bottom line is you either believe their testimony or you don't.

Originally posted by Zeer0
reply to post by longjohnbritches

 

You think talking snakes, talking bushes on fire, invisible sky men, people made out of dirt and a rib, people turning into salt is reality? I really hope you dont.

That's hebrew.

reply to post by yourmaker


what legitimizes any religion other then their txts and teachings and history?

Why are you targeting Christianity?

There are 100s of religions across the world, they are all "legitimized" the same way

Are you concerned with all religions or just Christianity? Do you have a vendetta?Or just a curiosity of this religion in particular over say, Islam, or other Abrahamic religions? Or Budhism , or Hinduism etc etc etc

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
Why are you targeting Christianity?

because it targeted me.

There are 100s of religions across the world, they are all "legitimized" the same way

Are you concerned with all religions or just Christianity? Do you have a vendetta?Or just a curiosity of this religion in particular over say, Islam, or other Abrahamic religions? Or Budhism , or Hinduism etc etc etc

I am not concerned with most religions, but the ones you hear about the most.
What legitimizes a religion? it doesn't stem from any logic or truthes. so what keeps people coming back for more?

reply to post by xxsomexpersonxx

A belief that many of us were raised in,

By people who were forced to believe in it.

Originally posted by Zeer0

Originally posted by MaryStillToe
reply to post by yourmaker

 

What legitimizes Christianity beyond the Bible is personal experience.

Many people have their belief confirmed through answered prayers, supernatural experiences, or by validating their life experience against the Bible's teachings to see if the predicted cause and effect relationships hold true.

While this notion is true, it shouldnt be like that. Belief in anything should be based on Evidence. And plus dont you think that the Jews that died in the Holocaust preyed or that the kids starving in Africa prey? Think about it.

A personal experiences is evidence to the believer, not necessarily to anyone else. If someone has been abducted by aliens, their belief in aliens is legitimized by their own experience. However, its not likely that they would be able to convince everyone who did not share their experience.

As far as Christianity and prayers go, there are no promises made that life will be carefree or void of suffering. Instead, suffering and pain are evidence that a person or groups of people have chosen the wrong the path. Also, it's not necessarily the one who suffers who chose the wrong path, but sometimes, the people who suffer are chosen to witness evil so that they can choose whether or not they believe that there is a better way of life.

Some people can't believe in God because life can be unpleasant, cruel, and unfair, but it's the price to be paid for freewill. How can you give someone a free choice without letting them observe and experience both sides so that they can actually make a choice? If there was only good, people wouldn't have a choice.

So do you either want to be free and have choices or do you prefer to be programmed? If people are programmed, then can you really call that existing?