NDEs: Heaven and Hell

reply to post by Hydroman


I didn't get the chance to.


reply to post by lonewolf19792000



What about all that mess about the "gnashing of teeth" and "eternal punishment" and "lake of fire"?

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
This is a "chicken or the egg" question. We will find out when it's our time. I believe when we die we stay dead until the resurrection if we are found worthy of being resurrected and if not we stay in sheol..eternal death.

Ah, well that's different. I wonder how these people who experience NDE's see people in heaven and hell? Maybe because those experiences are not real? What do you think?

Originally posted by arpgme
I didn't get the chance to.

Do it. Do it now, for I command it.

Oh ok. I know which video you were talking about now. I'm going to respond to your response.

Originally posted by Hydroman
...What I gather from that video though, is that the left side brain is the logic side. The right side of our brain is the "spiritual" side. Her left brain shut down, which meant only her right brain side was still alive. That's why she experienced the Nirvana. Maybe NDEs happen when the right side over takes the left side? It's not really anyone leaving their body, it's just a function of the right side brain.

It's cool how she says that we have two minds in our body. This is also proven with split-brained patients who have had their corpus collosum cut in half.

I used to think the same way about the brain split, but then I realized that there were people born deaf and blind who could actually see and hear when they had their near death experience. That is really good evidence against the theory that it is just the right-brain doing it.

Originally posted by arpgme
I used to think the same way about the brain split, but then I realized that there were people born deaf and blind who could actually see and hear when they had their near death experience. That is really good evidence against the theory that it is just the right-brain doing it.

That's an interesting thought if those stories are true. What did they see or hear?

reply to post by Hydroman


I really couldn't find many sources of being deaf on hand, this is a short one though. This person was deaf and talks about a being "talking" with them and not wanting to come back to Earth for a lifetime of being "deaf" [1].

As for the blind:

Yeah, I just watched that blind one a few minutes ago. It is interesting. I couldn't find a testimony of a deaf person having NDEs, but I'll check your link out.

In the meantime, I thought this article was interesting. It describes how one's culture plays into the NDE:

www.horizonresearch.org...

Culture and NDEs

Understanding the role of culture on NDE is very important. The central features of the NDE have been recorded throughout history and across numerous cultures and religious groups. NDE have also been described in atheists as well as those with a particular faith, whether it be as practising members or non practising members of a particular religion.
Historically, there have been descriptions closely resembling the NDE in the beliefs of Bolivian, Argentinian and North American Indians, Buddhist and Islamic texts and accounts from China, Siberia and Finland. The commonest features are a) having an out of body experience, b) a reunion with ancestors and departed friends, c) an experience of light accompanied by joy and peace, d) a border or dividing line between the living and the dead. Today, stories of near death experiences have also been described from many areas of the world including India, China, South America, and the Middle East. Interestingly in these countries there has been relatively very little if any publicity given to this phenomenon. With the NDEs recalled from people in non western cultures, it has been found that although the central features are universally present, the interpretation of the experience may reflect personal religious or cultural views. In other words people from different parts of the world may all feel peaceful, see a tunnel, a bright light together with a being of light, and also have a sensation of detaching from their bodies, but they may describe the identity of the being of light according to their own cultural and religious backgrounds. In one study carried out in 1985, the experiences of 16 Asian Indians were compared with those from Americans and it was found that the Indians unlike the Americans often encountered Yamraj, the Hindu king of the dead. The largest cross cultural study was carried out in 1977 by Osis and Haraldsson, which focused more on death bed visions, these are the experiences that people have had usually in the 24 hours before death. These are different to the classical near death experiences in that carers who had looked after the individual during the dying process had recalled them from what they had observed of the dying patients'. In this study they examined approximately 440 terminally ill American and Indian patients as described to their doctors and nurses. The commonest feature, which occurred in 91% of cases was the apparition of seeing deceased relatives. There were a total of 140 reports of seeing religious figures, usually described as an angel or God. In the cases in which these were specifically identified, they were always found to be described according to a person's religious beliefs: no Hindu reported seeing Jesus, and no Christian a Hindu deity.

reply to post by arpgme

What about all that mess about the "gnashing of teeth" and "eternal punishment" and "lake of fire"?

The "lake of fire" is after the Great White Throne Judgment. And there are different levels or types of separation from God, There is also the "outer darkness". Not everyone receives the same level of punishment or seperation from God in the afterlife.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
The "lake of fire" is after the Great White Throne Judgment. And there are different levels or types of separation from God, There is also the "outer darkness". Not everyone receives the same level of punishment or seperation from God in the afterlife.

Are you saying that not everyone receives the lake of fire as well? Some just go to darkness? What about demons and fallen angels, what do they get?

reply to post by Hydroman

In a previous post you suggested the cultural conditioning as setting the standard for what the content of the NDE would consist of. I think the article you link to has it more as the cultural conditioning providing the framework in which the experience is interpreted.

From the section you quoted is the part about experiences and visions in the 24 hrs. before the death of the terminally ill.

The commonest feature, which occurred in 91% of cases was the apparition of seeing deceased relatives.

Since I did spend a few years of my life attending to the needs and comforts of the terminally ill people, I will relate an anecdote in a vague enough way as to hopefully not violate any confidentiality.

It was approximately twelve hours before she breathed her last that I went into her room. She was from a large Asian country that has many local dialects, so that she and her boyfriend, who was her only visitor, didn't exactly communicate flawlessly with one another.

She was alone in the room when I entered, but she was conversing with someone I couldn't see. I determined where, by her posture and eye focus, the person or persons would be. So in my best Western Barbarian's facsimile of an Eastern show of respect, I bowed, then waited for the conversation to end before attending to her needs.

About an hour and a half later, when I next went into her room, she seemed rather animated and said something to her boyfriend who was then visiting. He said, "She says that you know everything!"

"Oh?" I asked, "about what?"

"I can't quite understand what she means", he replied, "I'm sorry."

So I don't know who she was talking to. But I can guess that it was as real to her as I was. I don't know if this helps the discussion or not. But there it is.

Originally posted by pthena
About an hour and a half later, when I next went into her room, she seemed rather animated and said something to her boyfriend who was then visiting. He said, "She says that you know everything!"

"Oh?" I asked, "about what?"

"I can't quite understand what she means", he replied, "I'm sorry."

The lady was talking about you and said that you know everything? Did I understand that right?

reply to post by Hydroman

That's the impression. But I did point out that she and her boyfriend did not communicate flawlessly due to the dialect issue. I only speak English, He, the boyfriend spoke very good English. The breakdown would occur between her and him.

add: I don't know the language she spoke, so obviously, I don't know everything.

reply to post by pthena


Oh ok, I get the point now. I was confused for a moment. Very interesting...

Speaking of spirits... There is a tribe called The Piraha and they don't believe in God, they have no word for God in their language but they have a word for spirit.

When a Christian missionary first went over there, a spirit arrived and The Piraha was asking if he seriously couldn't see the spirit because they all could. After a while of staying there, the Christian Missionary began to be able to see the spirits that they talked to as well.

Interesting enough, they would astral project and play "acting roles" with their spirits. To them the spirit was just used for acting and story telling and somehow they still believed that after they die they just go in the ground.

They are very strange, but interesting...

reply to post by arpgme


It's amazing, all these different beliefs out there. Jeeeez I wish I knew what the truth was.

reply to post by Hydroman


I would also like to point out that there language have no words for "past" or "future", it is all about "now" with them. The word for "ground" is the same word for "sky".

They have no religion. Maybe that is why they don't care to figure out what the spirit is for. The just play with it.

reply to post by Hydroman

It's amazing, all these different beliefs out there. Jeeeez I wish I knew what the truth was.

Personally, I'm going to look into Stoicism. Precisely non-dualist. I've got theories, but that's about it.

reply to post by arpgme

Piraha People
The Pirahã have no concept of a supreme spirit or god[11] and they lost interest in Jesus when they discovered that Everett had never seen him. They require evidence for every claim made. They aren't interested in things if they don't know the history behind them, if they haven't seen it done.[5] However, they do believe in spirits that can sometimes take on the shape of things in the environment. These spirits can be jaguars, trees, or other visible, tangible things including people.[12] Everett reported one incident where the Pirahã said that “Xigagaí, one of the beings that lives above the clouds, was standing on a beach yelling at us, telling us that he would kill us if we go into the jungle.” Everett and his daughter could see nothing and yet the Pirahã insisted that Xigagaí was still on the beach.[13]

This Anthropologist Everett seems to be the expert on the Piraha. Interesting that nothing seems important to them that isn't direct personal experience. No brainwashing from other people's claimed experience or handed down ancient religion.

reply to post by Hydroman

Are you saying that not everyone receives the lake of fire as well? Some just go to darkness? What about demons and fallen angels, what do they get?

He is apparently a member of the Chuck Missler cult.
You can do a google search with his name and "purgatory", and you will find out that he wrote a recent book which describes what is being called The Protestant Purgatory.
This is where these people who create false religions inevitably end up, in universalism and pantheism.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
The "lake of fire" is after the Great White Throne Judgment. And there are different levels or types of separation from God, There is also the "outer darkness". Not everyone receives the same level of punishment or seperation from God in the afterlife.

Are you saying that not everyone receives the lake of fire as well? Some just go to darkness? What about demons and fallen angels, what do they get?

No, everyone not found in the book of life goes into the lake of fire. But that judgment happens after the Great White Throne Judgment. Right now there are different degrees or levels of torments, we are not at that judgment yet.

reply to post by jmdewey60


No, there is no Protestant purgatory, that's absurd. If I've told you once I've told you 50 times my doctrine comes from the Bible. Jesus said torments would be greater or lesser for certain people, cities, and nations. And Revelation says everyone not found in the book of life after the Great White Throne Judgment would be thrown in the lake of fire.

Read the Bible sometime, it's fascinating.