Jiddu Krishnamurti asks; "Why don't you change? What prevents you?"

reply to post by Sahabi


Why don't you [general] change?

You are afraid.

Solution: Be Fearless.

It takes practice to become fearless. It takes courage to become fearless. It takes deep thought and personal scrutiny to become fearless.

But, it is worth it.

The outside will never be changed until the inside has been changed.

There is an outside - the actions of other humans who do not share your mindset.

You cannot change them.

But, you can can change what you show them.

When you are fearless and secure in your fearlessness, you also exude an aura of calm, assurance, peace, and warmth. Is this not what we all need?

Originally posted by satron
It's almost impractical to change yourself, sadly. That's why a lot of people move away when they need to change, but not everyone can do that. A lot of people aren't equipped with knowledge on how to change themselves without offending their friends and family, so a lot of people are just stuck.

It is very practical to change yourself.

Just stop worrying about how other people will react.

The problem is not that we don't know how to change, it is that we are afraid of how our comfortable and safe lives will change if we do.

But, if you are stuck, the only solution is to become unstuck.

If your soul is screaming that things are wrong, then fix things until your soul is content.

Originally posted by TheOneElectric
Looks like it's time.
Ego death is coming.

Question: Is it possible to achieve in the time span of two months? This is with the assumption that I have been going through a spiritual journey for a while (haven't we all)

Anything is possible.

If your time limit is two months, then do it in two months.

However, be prepared to be immersed in incessant shock and awe for every day of those two months. Because, the more you learn, the more you see, and the more you see, the more you understand.

Do it.

reply to post by CosmicEgg
reply to post by earthling42
reply to post by ottobot


I enjoyed your replies, and I can agree with many of the points being made. You've all articulated well, and i hope we can all continue to learn and understand. From past threads and posts, we can see that we're all pretty much on the same page here.

Through our own thoughts, emotions, yearnings, and actions... it is quite evident how the inner effects the outer (& vice-versa), and how the one corresponds with the many, and the many with the One.

Let us discuss further, and perhaps we can begin to iron-out the specifics of why I can not properly address the op question.




Me, this physical human being:

I recycle my garbage, pick up loose litter, and properly dispose of all things I use. Why does world-wide pollution of the air, soil, and water persist?

I do not engage in, watch, or support immoral, improper, or illegal sexual conduct. Why does rape and pedophilia still continue?

I help all that I can, I give, I forgive, I kgnow others as self, I build people up instead of knocking them down, I work towards and discuss unity and peace amongst mankind. Why does war, tyranny, and genocide rage on?

I conduct business transactions and money exchanges with the utmost understanding for the other. Why do sweat-shops, slavery, and economic warfare/slavery still continue?

I befriend wild and domestic animals. I watch the ground as to not kill insects intentionally. I carry insects out of my home and safely put them outdoors. Why does the extinction of animals continue?

See where I'm getting at?

Does this mean I am not laboring hard enough?
Does this mean I am still missing something?
Does this mean that I am only disillusioned by false self-righteousness and I am corrupt?
Does this mean my heart is wicked?
Or does this mean that it takes more than only changing the inside?

Peace.

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


Nice reply.

In so many systems we observe the 'individual' as directly contributing to "something bigger than its own self".

Blood cells, to organs, to physical bodies.
Stars, asteroids, planets, moons to solar systems, to constellations, to galaxies, to universes.

The point I am trying to stress is that we as human beings are not supposed to apply "absolute/enlightened" concepts or principles to every aspect of life. Once realized, understand and let it pass. This was warned many times as "attachment to ideas." So you are definitely right!

There is this "absolute/enlightened" understanding, and there is also the relative human understanding. The tree is an individual tree, but it is also the entire forest. We must seek balance with the individual and the All in order to be whole; holy.

Change must happen, but more actually, change does happen. We can't name one thing that is permanent. Not a physical thing, not a thought, emotion, or anything. It is all constantly changing. That was a great use of "impermanent" in your cave

What are your thoughts on the reasoning in my previous post? About changing for the "good" inside but still observing "bad" outside.

I've only learned of Jiddu last year. He is definitely my style of philosopher. I really enjoy how his articulations open our own minds to philosophize with him as he speaks, instead of preaching or talking at us. Very wise brother, and I am happy he decided to step away from the position that he was being groomed for, i.e., World Teacher.

Peace Brother.

reply to post by Sahabi


I know you did not address me, but I think I can answer your question.

By changing yourself, all outward actions will reflect that change. Also, one must understand that this change does not have a finality; an end, it is a process of continuity. If I transcend violence, will the world completely transcend violence? Of course not, that is crazy. Violence will continue in the world, and since I AM THE WORLD, the urges to act violently will persist within me also, that is why I AM VIOLENCE. But I also know violence brings more suffering and sorrow, and I don't want that. So, accepting this as true, I am continuously aware of what is happening, in every moment, and the minute violence arises it is seen for what it is and the mind becomes extremely quiet. Thus, I, as in this mind and body, am an agent of transcending violence within the world. Because of this, the world has now changed, maybe You don't see it, and maybe I don't see it completely always either, but it has.

My little contribution of transcending violence acts like the Butterfly Effect, it changes the world in ways I may not even know. When the Buddha awakened, he said, "The whole world has awoken". Why? Because his awakening was an agent of that change. Will the whole world awaken? I don't know, but they have the chance now.

Peace

PS. Just seen your post addressed to me. I agree 100%, you said it as good as it can be said. And yes, I am also glad he 'stepped' away form "World Teacher", , we have enough of those already.

reply to post by mnkyvsalien


I also believe there are some who use every means necessary to keep us dumbed-down, submissive, and compliant. Our emotions, intellect, mind, bodies, health, and energies are understood and being used against us to fulfill certain agendas.

However, I do not in any way believe psychedelics are any answer to our obstacles. Rely on them for anything, and you make it your god, your crutch, your dis-ease.

Peace.

Originally posted by ottobot

Originally posted by satron
It's almost impractical to change yourself, sadly. That's why a lot of people move away when they need to change, but not everyone can do that. A lot of people aren't equipped with knowledge on how to change themselves without offending their friends and family, so a lot of people are just stuck.

It is very practical to change yourself.

Just stop worrying about how other people will react.

The problem is not that we don't know how to change, it is that we are afraid of how our comfortable and safe lives will change if we do.

But, if you are stuck, the only solution is to become unstuck.

If your soul is screaming that things are wrong, then fix things until your soul is content.

That's why it's impractical.

It's like saying it's impractical to worry about running out of fossil fuels, because we have a star at our disposal.

Many people don't know how to change in a way that will benefit themselves, that's why it's impractical.

reply to post by satron


Have you, satron the human being, ever done/said/thought contrary to family, authority, or society norms... in an effort to better your self, improve your self, or change your self? To better help others, to cause less suffering to others?

If you can answer yes, then you must have hope in all of mankind, for we are all one mind.

We can change for perceived good, evil, or neutrality. Not one thing is permanent, all is bound by the cycles of change. Even your emotions and thoughts change. Sometimes you are hungry, sometimes full, sometimes neutral. Sometimes angry, happy, depressed, etc.

So why not change?

Krishnamurti has been influenced by "General Semantics" (look it out, very interesting). Maybe you have heard JK using the term "time-binding", and it is a term that has been invented by Alfred Korzybski (the man who created General Semantics). Korzybski said that we are "time-binders", and it means that if there's a clear difference between humans and the other animals, it is the capacity to build upon the work of our ancestors, to transmit information through thousands of years. Humans have at their disposal the work of all previous generations, humans start where their fathers have stopped, while other animals start at the same point as their ancestors. Without the time-binding capacity, we wouldn't be able to build civilisations, without the time-binding capacity, we would have to rediscover or reinvent the wheel again and again. This is a great capacity, but it can also become a burden, because we don't transmit to the following generations only the good stuff, but also the bad stuff. That is our prison of knowledge, false or true knowledge, and we build our societies around that accumulated knowledge. Now, the one you are today didn't just appear like that, but you have been shaped by the semantic environment, and that semantic environment is the product of all previous generations. You are who you are because our societies are still shaped by what some people have said thousands of years ago. Aristotle said that some people are meant to be dominated, and others to be dominant, then others later have built other theories on the one of Aristotle, which ultimately leads to our society of today. Is what Aristotle said total bs or not? You have to first respond to that question. You have to ask yourself "what is human nature?". Because if you believe that you have to change, you have to acknowledge the fact that you have been walking in the wrong direction, and so you have to understand what went wrong, where, why and how. Nothing is "immanent", everything has a cause, even if we can't understand that cause yet.

You also have to understand how the brain works, and how it has evolved through the ages. The brain is made to respond first with emotions and reflexes, and the cortex (rationality, logics..) came only later. You can agree if I say that lots of problems today are because of emotional reaction (ego, fear ..) instead of calm reasoning with the big picture in mind.

Originally posted by Sahabi

I recycle my garbage, pick up loose litter, and properly dispose of all things I use. Why does world-wide pollution of the air, soil, and water persist?

I do not engage in, watch, or support immoral, improper, or illegal sexual conduct. Why does rape and pedophilia still continue?

I help all that I can, I give, I forgive, I kgnow others as self, I build people up instead of knocking them down, I work towards and discuss unity and peace amongst mankind. Why does war, tyranny, and genocide rage on?

I conduct business transactions and money exchanges with the utmost understanding for the other. Why do sweat-shops, slavery, and economic warfare/slavery still continue?

I befriend wild and domestic animals. I watch the ground as to not kill insects intentionally. I carry insects out of my home and safely put them outdoors. Why does the extinction of animals continue?

Does this mean I am not laboring hard enough?
Does this mean I am still missing something?
Does this mean that I am only disillusioned by false self-righteousness and I am corrupt?
Does this mean my heart is wicked?
Or does this mean that it takes more than only changing the inside?

The answer to all of your questions: You are alive in the world. But, you live your life in your world. When you "change the world", you are actually changing your world. By changing your world, making it better where you are, you also change the worlds of other people who come into contact with you and your sphere of change.

You are changing the world, one world at a time.

Originally posted by satron
That's why it's impractical.

It's like saying it's impractical to worry about running out of fossil fuels, because we have a star at our disposal.

Many people don't know how to change in a way that will benefit themselves, that's why it's impractical.

I disagree with you.

Just because it's difficult doesn't mean it's impractical.

What is it that causes you to say it's impractical? Is it because it is a daunting task? Is it because you don't want to put forth the effort to accomplish the change? Think about it.

If changing yourself makes your life and the lives of those around you better, it is not impractical.

You are saying, essentially, that there's no point in changing one thing since you can't change everything. From my standpoint, if you can change just one thing - you do change everything. Even if it's just a tiny change, it is still change.

You will never know how to change if you don't try it.

So, try it.

reply to post by Sahabi


Hi Sahabi
Me or you, as well as anyone else will not be able to change the world.
The only thing we can do is see the immoral, reject the immoral to live morally.
The world will still be corrupt, poluted, in war and so on.

Don't doubt yourself.

This is not so much an philosophical question, but is has all the more to do with feeling.
Caring and loving, are the magic words here.

Because you care, you started this great thread
Because you love, you are loving to all.

Originally posted by ottobot

Originally posted by satron
That's why it's impractical.

It's like saying it's impractical to worry about running out of fossil fuels, because we have a star at our disposal.

Many people don't know how to change in a way that will benefit themselves, that's why it's impractical.

I disagree with you.

Just because it's difficult doesn't mean it's impractical.

What is it that causes you to say it's impractical? Is it because it is a daunting task? Is it because you don't want to put forth the effort to accomplish the change? Think about it.

If changing yourself makes your life and the lives of those around you better, it is not impractical.

You are saying, essentially, that there's no point in changing one thing since you can't change everything. From my standpoint, if you can change just one thing - you do change everything. Even if it's just a tiny change, it is still change.

You will never know how to change if you don't try it.

So, try it.

It's impractical because many people have no practice doing it. They might not have an example to lead by. Not all of us are able to go through with the changes needed because too many are required, or their life circumstance won't let them. They could succeed, but they could also fail, BADLY.

If you change yourself, you're not just changing one thing, your changing MANY things.

It's not a feel good notion, but it's reality.

reply to post by satron


Yes, and my point is: You'll never have practice changing if you don't initiate change.

The only thing preventing initiation of change is Fear.

So, the solution would be to start small and work your way up. For example, instead of choosing regular soda, drink a diet soda. Do this every time you remember to, and eventually you will be drinking diet soda the majority of the time. As a side effect of drinking less sugar, you will begin to lose weight. As a side effect of losing weight, you will be able to walk faster. As a side effect of being able to walk faster, you will be able to walk longer without being winded. Do you see where I'm going with this?

One tiny change is all you need to get started. You don't have to tackle the world, just one thing that you can easily change.

It only seems impractical because people don't want to take the chance on practicing.

And, so what if you fail? That's why you get back up and try again. This is what practice is for. The more you practice, the less you fail.

Use failure to your advantage, as a learning experience, and there's nothing to fear.

And, anyway, this thread is about You (Me, We) specifically.

Why don't You change, Satron? (Or, why do You?)

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


Peace be with you. That was a great explanation, and I also agree.

I know Jiddu is no god of whose words should be held on to, but I am affixed to the words, "you would prevent all wars." Do you think he means that all of us need to work harder to literally prevent all wars to the utmost of our means and ability? Or does this mean to practice this in one's own life and allow it to radiate outwardly from within?

reply to post by TheOneElectric

Question: Is it possible to achieve in the time span of two months? This is with the assumption that I have been going through a spiritual journey for a while (haven't we all)

Change can occur at the blink of an eye, over night, or over the span of eons. It appears change is not bound by time.

Does change always need a catalyst or cause?

reply to post by ottobot

When you "change the world", you are actually changing your world. By changing your world, making it better where you are, you also change the worlds of other people who come into contact with you and your sphere of change.

I like the way you said this. It puts this concept into a nice perspective.

"This is what it's like when worlds collide." - Powerman 5000

For some reason I thought of this song when I read your reply.

I create the world I want to see, inwardly and actively... I am at peace and accepting of the world others are creating... but my world effects other worlds when they collide.... so I should be mindful of how I would like those collisions to effect me and others... to cause less suffering and bring about more peace, if that is what I would like to see. How's this flow for you?

reply to post by earthling42


Thank you earthling42 for the nice and encouraging words. I understand what you're saying, it makes all the sense.

I see the vastness in the speck of dust, and I understand the beauty and wonder all around. However, the suffering of plants, animals, mankind, and earth is constantly tugging at me. Really, I can't ignore it no matter how beautifully I see the world, or am mindful of compassion, love, and peace.

I don't know how to "stop all wars," but I desperately want this.

May Peace be with you.

I am a recovering transhumanist. I actually was not very familiar with the terminology and the whole vocabulary behind it until recently.

I read some Nietzsche when I was a kid. I have loved history since a young age...I guess maybe since I had the use of reason. I would sit and watch my father talk about this or that and after the official story he would let us in on tit bits of actual history. I have since been aware of mankind's many pitfalls and attempts at something more than darkness.

I don't know. I use to think that mankind was being set back because we werent allowed to achieve real progress. Ignorance and the common man held back our species due to their blind devotion to fantasy and the false hoods of religion.

I thought of myself as privy to knowing the true nature of the world and the mentality of its leadership. I thought that was enough to fill the void I was creating. I thought being more and better than everyone was enough. I thought so and I was. I went from being a bullied kid in grade school to becoming something no one really wanted to mess with. I am not a big guy. I admit my physical appearance is not threatening. It is actually inviting and warm.

I used my intellect to effect control over those around me. I had everyone eating out of the palm of my hand. I was absolute. I commanded the group I spent time with and whenever I jumped into another group I quickly took over as master of opinion/ master of ceremonies.

I thought that was the purpose of my natural abilities. I was good looking, smart, my father had good enough connections for me to set up with whatever job I really wanted, within reason. I ran circles around everyone around me. The clock was well greased and running smoothly. So I thought.

I had any girl I wanted, I noticed certain "unexplainable" phenomena happening proving that I could also affect certain psychic traits others coveted and envied me for. I didn't even brag about it, they would be the first to notice them and become more observant since I tried to hide them. They thought I could make them just like me.

I tried for some, but their minds would not bend to the truth I tried to show them. In the end they sought parlor tricks or false truth so as to have the effect I had, not the purpose.

Soon I discovered how alone I truly was. I have not lost my true friendships from then. They did adjust though. They had to since they loved me and I changed. I came to refuse to shine. I saw the evil that drove my "super self"

I became, for all intent and purpose, one of the super men Nietzsche talked about. I had the world at my fingertips, and what's more I was proving to myself that I could out do the talent of the day....everything was in line for my ascendancy to the "throne" of my choosing.

I would have not questioned myself for a purposeful redesign had I not had my heart very present and clear to me. I knew my heart and it commanded my conscience. My mind commanded my will. The battle was fierce.

In the end they both lost. My heart that would not surrender what I saw as a misbalance and my mind would never give in due to its cold logic and vision of the future.

I don't know what I am now. I honestly am trying to find a union of both worlds. Those I see that are good fill me to no end. Those I see that are evil, I see as my natural enemy. Like a scorpion stinging the toad. It is in my nature to fight what my eyes see as wrong. It is in my nature to have unending loyalty. I will die with my people. I will not transcend beyond them and abandon them. Those I never cared about before mean something to me now. Those I would follow to hell because I believe in their message of progress and the works of Titans as I see it, I cannot hurt.

What am I to do?
I was raised a good American, a good citizen, a good person. My parents did an excellent job with us all and produced fine men and women for tomorrow. I just don't know if this world is the one I was made for.

I refused to serve in the military even though it to me is like a bee refusing honey.I was made for war.I refused my war. My soul would not let me raise my fists in anger. My heart would not lie to me. I would not summon my strength to strike down an innocent.

I believe, and many will not understand me, I believe in the elite´s right to rule this world. I believe they have earned it. I believe we have failed to maintain a sound enough reason to entrust us with the world we now occupy. We have proven ourselves unworthy. The thing is, they have as well. What do I do?

If I were to dedicate myself to helping them,I know I could do much good and still remain in line with their vision of the world, my vision. I know I could do much good resisting them and helping to create a strong conscience in many people I can effect. What do I do? I don't have the answer. That is why I cant just turn my back on them all. I cant turn my back on the others either. so what now?

Do I help mankind to become what even I thought was the future.The rest? who is right. My mind? My Heart?

Thats why.