500 Kiloton German Hydrogen Bomb Goes Missing

reply to post by tk7936


I would question that as well, even using the AIP system, there are still moving parts which cause noise. The AIP also has a very limited range, so it's not as if they can cruise the whole way using it and the Dolphin can only do 400 miles @ 8 knots submerged. That is actually piss poor performance when compared to any modern SSN, such as the Astute which can do unlimited miles at 30+ knts submerged, and would make finding it very easy.

Given the supposed NATO vessels "looking for this sub" (the story is BS btw) knew it's point of departure, it's heading and it's destination, this would have made it even easier to find.

reply to post by stumason

Your information about the newer dolphin 212A type subs is not correct.
They can speed up to 20 knots submerdged and there are deliberately no moving parts in the sub.
Also their range is 8k miles (surfaced at 8kt) and 400+ miles fully submerged while unsupplied for up to 30 days on station. The maximum range running solely on the fuelcell-system is not publicly known.

*I'm not saying the story is true though. My point is only about the 212A dolphin class and their capability to vanish in a scenario like in this story.

reply to post by ColCurious


The Type 212 is not the Dolphin class, matey. The Dolphin is based on the type 209 export variant. The 212 is only used by the German and Italian Navies.

As for "no moving parts", explain how the hell it moves through the water then? The AIP still drives the propellor using an electric motor.

EDIT: You also misread what I said. The maximum submerged range is 400 miles @ 8 knts. I didn't say it couldn't go faster, did I? Obviously, if it went at 20knts, it's submerged range would be greatly diminished.

Originally posted by kman420
Its really only a matter of time before someone decides to use a nuke, i just cant see practically every country racing to get nuclear weapons if no one planned on ever using them.

And it really only takes one going missing or sold to the wrong people, and somehow i cant see that "never" happening.

I mean how much money would a nuke and stealth sub cost? Wouldnt one of the oil rich companies easily beable to afford this? Im sure there only waiting till they have so many nukes in so many countries all pointed at us then what could we do?

It's not a matter of time until someone uses a nuke, because when they do, that's it. It's game over. No-one walks out the same again. When one nuke flies, they all fly and that isn't in anyone's interest. It's simple game theory. Right now we're in a check mate situation and no-one without a death wish would even dream of sending a nuke anywhere.

This topic actually in a few years of reading ATS has me somewhat questionable. The op I believe did a good job of reporting this story. First, I want to point out that the original source has updated information as it became possible and at first this warhead was believed to be of American built origination but has now been deemed to be Soviet in origin. This got me thinking to investigate some more. First we have waves of toxic waste being washed ashore on the west coast which has been documented with photographic evidence (a hefty bill to cleanup). Second we have the NATO summit coming up in Chicago of which some people believe will be the first time a shadow government goes public and even have photographic evidence of fully armed National Guard troops practicing evacuation drills in Chicago . All the while there will be Russian paratroopers in the United States doing a "terrorism" drill in which these paratroopers seize and control Denver international Airport and the HQ's of The CIA and another location. The Russian troops will arrive one week before the drill and will not be confined to a US base but will be given access to US special service weapons at Fort Carson (don't believe me Google it). On top of this I said "Hey, im just reading into conspiracy theory and started looking at MSM sites and stumbled upon this gem: www.foxnews.com... This article even states two things : "Makarov's statement on Thursday doesn't seem to imply an immediate threat, but aims to put extra pressure on Washington to agree to Russia's demands.

The two-day conference in Moscow is the last major Russia-U.S. meeting about military issues before a NATO summit in Chicago later this month."

and: Moscow rejects Washington's claim that the missile defense plan is solely to deal with any Iranian missile threat and has voiced fears it will eventually become powerful enough to undermine Russia's nuclear deterrent. Moscow has proposed running the missile shield jointly with NATO, but the alliance has rejected that proposal."

The Keyword there is "The Alliance" this seems like cold war propaganda to me and I'm am now certain something is going to happen. I'm not predicting but firmly believe something will happen this month.

Found this little nugget/article today.

JERUSALEM (AP) -- Israel on Thursday received its fourth German-made submarine capable of launching nuclear warheads, expanding a fleet that experts say could be used in an attack on Iran..........The Dolphin-type military submarine is one of six Israel has ordered from Germany, which subsidizes the submarines.

Isreal gets a new German Sub

reply to post by Voldemorton


It is a total misnomer latching onto this "capable of launching nuclear weapons" thing. It's like the Argentine Foreign minister complaining the UK had a sub "capable of launching nuclear weapons" in the South Atlantic, in breach of a treaty banning nuclear weapons.

Capable does not mean it will and in this age where a nuke can be strapped to any conventional ordinance, such as a cruise missile, virtually any platform is "capable of launching nuclear weapons", even a C-130 or an Airbus for crying out loud.

Since there is no confirmation to this one it must be a hoax.

However, couldn't a sub electro-magnetically attach itself to a freighter and go on minimum life support? Thats what I'd do.

reply to post by 3litechasr


Aside from requiring an immense power source which would kick out an EM field a Nimrod on the ground could detect, let alone any ASW aircraft in the air, I think the freighter Captain would notice the massive increase in drag and a problem controlling his vessel if one did that, so no, I don't think that is a viable idea.

Originally posted by AnonymousCitizen
Raw Reports

A nuclear weapon that wasn’t supposed to exist, a single 500 kiloton hydrogen bomb, one of four being tracked, was seen being loaded at the German port of Bemerhaven, Germany. The groups assisting in what we were informed was a counter-terrorism surveillance operation were the American NSA, British MI 6, the Office of Naval Intelligence and the British Royal Navy.

The “device” was loaded onto a Germany built “Dolphin” submarine and left the harbour doing 7.5 knots.

The submarine disappeared while being tracked by every sophisticated device NATO seems to be able to own or borrow.

Weapons of this type are generally located through use of specialized aircraft, in this case, the Boeing Sentinal E3D. These are highly modified 707 aircraft. The British have 7 of these operating out of RAF Waddington. They were placed on “mechanical fault standown” on April 14. Who would have thought all these planes were preparing to discombobulate?

It seems Germany is giving these things out as party favors, sub included. Hope this does not end badly.

If this is the case and a nuke is missing that shouldn't have been there in the first place, something is about to go down. We have the NATO summit in Chicago and dthe Olympics in London.

reply to post by stumason

Okay, I had to ask someone and technically 212 types are dolphin II class (but still considered dolphin class) and they really are banned from export outside of NATO.
In regard of the issue of moving parts, please watch the small videoclip I added in my previous post.

You are absolutely right about me missreading your post though, sorry about that. I was really tired when I wrote my post.

reply to post by ColCurious


Still unsure about your source chap. The 212 is not a Dolphin II, as the Dolphin is the Israeli name for the export variant of the 209 they are bing given (although there are differences between the 209 and Dolphin, making it more of a cross between a 212 and 209), so it wouldn't make sense for the Germans to call the 212, a Dolphin II.

I missed your vid though, I will have a look later on when I get home..

reply to post by stumason

My "source" is family, since marine is not my branch. I found the rest of the data about type 212A on the internet, so I'm no expert.
But if I understood right, "Dolphin" is a class, named after the first israeli vessel , while the "212A" for example is also a type. So the dolphin class subs can be different types and the first ones were type 800. It's only a naming issue basically.

I did a quick search using the words "U212 Dolphin Class submarines" and found this:
U212/U214 Type Submarines

Israel's Navy ordered six Dolphin Class U212 Submarines, of which three have been delivered and two more will be delivered by 2014. The sixth submarine was ordered in May 2011.

From the source article:

ETs/EDs Raid Bremerhaven, Germany Last Week;
“Disappear” Dolphin Sub, Nuke & Crew While Under Comprehensive NATO & Intelligence Agency Surveillance!
ETs/EDs (extraterrestrials/extradimensionsals) of the Liberation Forces raided Angela Merkel’s Germany last week, a move expected by the writer, given Germany’s decades of WMD (weapons of mass destruction) proliferation (chemical weapons and precursors, supplying missile expertise, illegal sale of ultra centrifuges to anyone with cash, plus providing quiet Diesel-electric subs to Israel, but set up to allow for rapid conversion to nuclear cruise missile launch platforms). Call the ETs/EDS most unhappy!

www.veteranstoday.com...

Originally posted by zeeon
Can we stop with all the armchair "experts" in this thread? Honestly?

For all the people calling BS on this story, how much real world experience do you really have?
I've worked on, tested and been in an E-2C Hawkeye (similar to the AWACS). Further that - I've worked on a multitude of electronics for many air frames, spent 13 years as an Aviation Electronics Technician.

AWACS DO have the capability to track multiple targets - especially if they can get a track on any type of signal originating from the sub (such as a tracking signal or any other type of electromagnetic emanation that leaves the surface of the water with enough signal strength).

You only need ASW (Anti-Submarine Warfare) detection when a subs running silent with no comms. Theoretically, if they knew the bearing of the sub when she left harbor an AWACS could fly around and passively detect any RF signals and trace them back. Just depends on bearing, range, and signal strength.

If the subs running with no comm's then we're talking about Passive/Active dipping sonar, MAD (Magnetic Anomaly Detection), Sonobouy's etc - typical ASW tactics to track her down.

Now that the technical details are out of the way - Those of you asking for official sources aren't going to get any.
If you think that the MSM (as biased and controlled as WE ALL KNOW THEY ARE) is going to report on a story of this magnitude - ie. the Germans lost a freaking nuclear weapon AND a submarine - then pass some of those drugs your using my way because I'd like to have some.

Fact of the matter is, if this is real - then it's most certainly classified.
If you want a little historical precedence - Tom Clancy's famous book "The Red Ocotober" was based on factual events. A Russian submarine really did defect to the United States, and she really did make it past our (at the time it was called) SOSA net surround Pearl Harbor. I have inside knowledge (from a family member who was an ASW officer on active duty) who can confirm this for me. The United States has still yet to release any classified material surrounding the situation.

Please don't assume something is fake because we don't have "Official" (read state sponsored media) telling you it is. Let's be smarter than that.

I agree with your statement. However; the OP never said anything about the Naval E-2 Hawkeye, they were talking about the E-3 AWACS used by the Air Force, which the OP claimed they were all "mysteriously" down at the time of the event, so central to the story. Turns out the UKs were down (they also quoted a wrong number of aircraft) briefly for maintenance, but are back up. Those aren't and to my knowledge have never been used for ASW (they are USAF assests in the US). I suppose they could take info from other assests and pass it along via data link, but so could several other assests. Even if this was happening, those that live near bases with ASW assets should be buzzing with activity, and no one has reported that. Your right on the dipping sonar from HELOs that would be out at sea which none of us would know about. (Unless of course its all run by TPTB, "inserts pinky to corner of mouth and cackles".)

Second, under ratified treaties, the Germans do not have nuclear weapons and have never claimed to have nuclear weapons. The only thing close is under very certain wartime conditions they can drop US weapons, open sourced to be B61 aircraft bombs, which are NOT 500kt. These could not be fired by a submarine. We would also have to assume the PALs (permissive action links arm the thing) are also compremised.

Now, I have some inside knowledge, but for the sake of the board I provided open source links in my posts. So of course any capabilities of said systems could be different based on classification. So is this in the realm of possibility, sure, and your right it would be HIGHLY classified, is it likely? No it's extremely unlikely. Which is why I shot it down, armchair expert extrodinar that I am . Because even if I was the head of the CIA I wouldn't be able to tell anyone anything on here without breaking the law...............But come on I mean let's say the OP started with, "Missing UK nuclear weapon....." well that's much more plausable, because at least the UK has their own nukes.

Now that some facts have emerged i think it's safe to say the Israeli's are not about to blow up Chicago or London.

However, when it comes to nukes things start to get murky, especially when combining nukes with Israel.

Lets review the new sub, INS Tanin ( Crocodile ) Dolphin class, Air-Independent Propulsion, 10 forward Torpedo tubes .

6 x 533 mm/ 21 inch tubes - Torps/Harpoons/Tomahawk : Although Clinton refused to supply Tomahawks Israel may have acquired elsewhere (murky) or subsequent administrations may have supplied (murky).

4 x 650 mm/ 25.5 inch tubes - ?????? Popeye turbo nuke cruise (Israeli) ????? (very murky).

The only warhead that comes close to 500 Kiloton is the W88 (475 Kiloton) used in Trident II as MRV's , up to twelve by design but limited to 8 by treaty.

It is technically possible to fit a W88 to the Popeye Turbo and fire it through the bigger tubes, not so sure that it can be fitted to a Tomahawk and fired through the standard tubes, but it may be the case.

If the story about a missing nuke is true it can only be a W88, i find it very hard to believe a W88 has gone missing, although i cannot blame Israel for wanting to acquire one.

Even if Israel has Acquired a W88 they still have to modify the Popeye Turbo and the Tomahawk (Again if acquired).

Much more likely they would reverse engineer the W88 for production while modifying the delivery missile.

As of now this just pure speculation, we do not know if any warheads are missing, we do know that Israel has capable subs and is looking around the world for suitable nuclear warheads.

There may be something to this story but it won't be as told, it may be a deliberate leak or false trail, or a story to spook the Iranians.

I think it would wise for us all to keep a watchful eye on the Dolphins in the coming months/years as that is where Israel intends to place it's nuclear arsenal, of that i am in no doubt.

As for false flags..erm not this time, this is more strategic and political.

Cosmic..

Originally posted by Cosmic4life
Now that some facts have emerged i think it's safe to say the Israeli's are not about to blow up Chicago or London.

However, when it comes to nukes things start to get murky, especially when combining nukes with Israel.

Lets review the new sub, INS Tanin ( Crocodile ) Dolphin class, Air-Independent Propulsion, 10 forward Torpedo tubes

.

6 x 533 mm/ 21 inch tubes - Torps/Harpoons/Tomahawk : Although Clinton refused to supply Tomahawks Israel may have acquired elsewhere (murky) or subsequent administrations may have supplied (murky).

4 x 650 mm/ 25.5 inch tubes - ?????? Popeye turbo nuke cruise (Israeli) ????? (very murky).

The only warhead that comes close to 500 Kiloton is the W88 (475 Kiloton) used in Trident II as MRV's , up to twelve by design but limited to 8 by treaty.

It is technically possible to fit a W88 to the Popeye Turbo and fire it through the bigger tubes, not so sure that it can be fitted to a Tomahawk and fired through the standard tubes, but it may be the case.

If the story about a missing nuke is true it can only be a W88, i find it very hard to believe a W88 has gone missing, although i cannot blame Israel for wanting to acquire one.

Even if Israel has Acquired a W88 they still have to modify the Popeye Turbo and the Tomahawk (Again if acquired).

Much more likely they would reverse engineer the W88 for production while modifying the delivery missile.

As of now this just pure speculation, we do not know if any warheads are missing, we do know that Israel has capable subs and is looking around the world for suitable nuclear warheads.

There may be something to this story but it won't be as told, it may be a deliberate leak or false trail, or a story to spook the Iranians.

I think it would wise for us all to keep a watchful eye on the Dolphins in the coming months/years as that is where Israel intends to place it's nuclear arsenal, of that i am in no doubt.

As for false flags..erm not this time, this is more strategic and political.

Cosmic..

Good info. Do you know if W88s are stored or ever were stored, at the US Air Bases in Germany? If this is true (and I still am solid it's NOT), since the Germans (as far as open sources publish) only have access to the nukes under NATO agrement on use air bases in Germany, would W88s even be remotely available. These are designed to be launched by SLBM, so I wouldn't think so (they may have also been fitted to the long cancelled GLCM which is basicly a land launched Tomahawk). The NATO agreement was in war the Tornado GR3 would deliver B61s.

How does the W88 compare with what we assume Israel already has in their arsenal?
Or is it "buy a sub and get a free nuke" week in Germany? I hate missing those sales.

reply to post by SrWingCommander


As far as i am aware W88's are only used on Trident missiles.

That is not to say that they cannot be retro-fitted to something else, but it would take a great deal of know-how and inside info to unlock one of these warheads.

W88's are designed with lots of fail-safes and security measures.

The only country apart from the US to have W88's are the UK and to fire them requires codes from the US, i believe all UK W88's are accounted for.

I think it would be a lot easier for Israel to steal the design blueprints and make their own, if they haven't already.

This is probably what the real story is alluding to, Israel has nuke manufacturing, has technological know-how, has submarine to fire them from.

To me the idea of Israel stealing a nuke is improbable, they can make their own in total secrecy.

The more i look into this story, the more it looks like lets spook Iran and stir the pot.

Cosmic..

Originally posted by AnonymousCitizen
How does the W88 compare with what we assume Israel already has in their arsenal?
Or is it "buy a sub and get a free nuke" week in Germany? I hate missing those sales.

edit on 5/4/12 by AnonymousCitizen because: (no reason given)

W88's = state of the art current inventory US/UK.

As i said in my above post, i'm pretty sure Israel has access to all technologies and can produce their own versions.

Cosmic..