Where did logic come from? God

When you go to university and you take a class of logic who do they teach you about? The Greeks !

Thats what they go back the greeks.The rules of logic, when they teach you certian rules of logic.So who laid down those rules? Again , the greeks! It's known, the laws of logic were laid down by ancient greeks.Not to say that people may not done it before but far from historically, archaeologically, those are the earliest records of it, laid out systematically.The greeks known for their logics.

The point is that the greek logicians , plato , aristotle , greeks philosophers who used their minds to understand the world around them !What did they conclude , that there is no GOD? No, aristotle and plato and others conclude that there has to be a god !! so if it was soo illogical, how could the masters of logic come to conclusion that there has to be a god?

Makes You think !!!!

Logic is against God.


If God created logic , then he created something that can beat him , therefore he isn't omnipotent therefore the biblical God(who is described as omnipotent) can't exist.

There are countless logical arguments against God.And BTW, the greeks believed in more than 1 God.They didn't believe in those described by the Bible,Quaran etc.

Makes you think!

reply to post by DumbTopSecretWriters


No. Logic is not a thing, it's a way of thinking. There are no "Rules". Any living thing capable of concious thinking can apply logic to situations, however humans surpass any other organism on earth with our ability to think. Logic goes against religion.

Well, I just had no idea how blind I had been up till right this very second! I believe!

Honestly, sometimes...

Originally posted by DumbTopSecretWriters
When you go to university and you take a class of logic who do they teach you about? The Greeks !

Thats what they go back the greeks.The rules of logic when they teach you certian rules of logic,so who laid down those rules? Again , the greeks!It's known, the laws of logic were laid down by ancient greeks.Not to say that people may noy done it before but far from historically, archaeologically, those are the earliest records of it laid out systematically, the greeks known for their logics.

The point is that the greek logicians , plato , aristotle , greeks philosophers who used their minds to understand the world around them !What did they conclude , that there is no GOD? No, aristotle and plato and others conclude that there has to be a god !! so if it was soo illogical, how could the masters of logic come to conclusion there has to be a god?

Makes You think !!!!

edit on 2-5-2012 by DumbTopSecretWriters because: (no reason given)

a valid point.
however, to me it seems there's something missing in your reasoning
didn't most of the logical stuff these guys came up with was the result of trying to deal with tangible real problems?
might this be an explanation why they didn't bother trying to use logic to prove/disprove god

disclosure: I'm an atheist. If you think Christopher Hitchens was a bad ass (not saying that you do, to be precise, how would I know), you ain't seen nothing yet. I'm a cynical and sarcastic as he was, just not pretending i am as smart as he was.

take care

I think the point of logic is that there is not someone setting down rules. Compare it to mathematics. Mathematicians often talk of discovering formulae because they represent relationships that exist regardless of what anyone's opinion about them is, and remain true regardless of one's beliefs.

Originally posted by OrNaM3nT
Logic is against God.


If God created logic , then he created something that can beat him , therefore he isn't omnipotent therefore the biblical God(who is described as omnipotent) can't exist.

There are countless logical arguments against God.And BTW, the greeks believed in more than 1 God.They didn't believe in those described by the Bible,Quaran etc.

Makes you think!

The conversation was about greeks laying out logic and concluding there has to be a or any god with their understanding , not islam nor christians then you say logics is against god and you say by the way greeks believed many gods.Dude you don't make sense , lol....The point is according to them that there has to be a supreme being.

Originally posted by OrNaM3nT
Logic is against God.

from a logical perspective this makes no sense.
logic is not about being for or against something
it's about applying principles of thinking to determine whether statements are TRUE or FALSE, whereby none of these outcomes do imply a moral or ethical or emotional judgement.

you are aware of some of its nicer examples I assume?
The Cretenzer, for example?

The Cretenzer wakes up and says "all Cretenzers are liars"
this is a nice example of a paradox. People who love logic love this kind of stuff
mortal folk just don't care, i guess

Originally posted by DumbTopSecretWriters

Originally posted by OrNaM3nT
Logic is against God.


If God created logic , then he created something that can beat him , therefore he isn't omnipotent therefore the biblical God(who is described as omnipotent) can't exist.

There are countless logical arguments against God.And BTW, the greeks believed in more than 1 God.They didn't believe in those described by the Bible,Quaran etc.

Makes you think!

The conversation was about greeks laying out logic and concluding there has to be a or any god with their understanding , not islam nor christians then you say logics is against god and you say by the way greeks believed many gods.Dude you don't make sense , lol....The point is according to them that there has to be a supreme being.

edit on 2-5-2012 by DumbTopSecretWriters because: (no reason given)

You're not making sense. I don't know why you're talking about greeks, logic was around waaaay before the greeks. It was around when living things could consciously reason and think for themselves.

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by DumbTopSecretWriters

Originally posted by OrNaM3nT
Logic is against God.


If God created logic , then he created something that can beat him , therefore he isn't omnipotent therefore the biblical God(who is described as omnipotent) can't exist.

There are countless logical arguments against God.And BTW, the greeks believed in more than 1 God.They didn't believe in those described by the Bible,Quaran etc.

Makes you think!

The conversation was about greeks laying out logic and concluding there has to be a or any god with their understanding , not islam nor christians then you say logics is against god and you say by the way greeks believed many gods.Dude you don't make sense , lol....The point is according to them that there has to be a supreme being.

edit on 2-5-2012 by DumbTopSecretWriters because: (no reason given)

You're not making sense. I don't know why you're talking about greeks, logic was around waaaay before the greeks. It was around when living things could consciously reason and think for themselves.

You my friend, misunderstood everything.

reply to post by DumbTopSecretWriters


No I didn't, I don't know why you're saying the greeks are masters of logic. We know a lot more about the world we live in now than they did, we can come to a much more logical understanding of the universe now. Their religious beliefs aren't from logical thinking.

"the laws of logic were laid down by ancient greeks"
This makes zero sense, read what I said, I didn't misunderstand anything.

Originally posted by DumbTopSecretWriters

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by DumbTopSecretWriters

Originally posted by OrNaM3nT
Logic is against God.


If God created logic , then he created something that can beat him , therefore he isn't omnipotent therefore the biblical God(who is described as omnipotent) can't exist.

There are countless logical arguments against God.And BTW, the greeks believed in more than 1 God.They didn't believe in those described by the Bible,Quaran etc.

Makes you think!

The conversation was about greeks laying out logic and concluding there has to be a or any god with their understanding , not islam nor christians then you say logics is against god and you say by the way greeks believed many gods.Dude you don't make sense , lol....The point is according to them that there has to be a supreme being.

edit on 2-5-2012 by DumbTopSecretWriters because: (no reason given)

You're not making sense. I don't know why you're talking about greeks, logic was around waaaay before the greeks. It was around when living things could consciously reason and think for themselves.

You my friend, misunderstood everything.

wow, that's a pretty strong claim, don't you think? "misunderstanding everything"?

the reason why I make this reply is that I like the topic and i would be disappointed to see it going down in personal attacks.

the person who "misunderstood everything" has a huge chance of being correct in his assumption that logic precedes the greek. maybe we make this association with the greek because they might be among the first to turn it into a profession of some kind (please note the "might be") or maybe it is because it were their ideas that were brought to us after catholics started to lose their grip on people, in that era we call the dark ages?

can we enjoy a nice, logical debate? I would be so grateful

One of the most basic early logic arguments of the time, revolved around the existence of the number zero, and the logical could be reached that: If zero exists, then god does exist and god does not exist.

This concept was debated from Greece to Babylon. The Greeks hosted philosophical symposiums, and invited scholars from all over the known world to attend. It was a Greek tradition.

reply to post by DumbTopSecretWriters


The Greeks did not have access to the same degree of information as us.

Also, they weren't "Masters of Logic". They may be credited for starting logical thinking officially, but they weren't masters. Our understanding of what forms thinking give better predictions about reality continually grows. Modern Logic, is far more refined, accurate, and trustworthy than their logic.

~
They believed in multiple gods. Many Monotheists and Atheists alike find that illogical. They also believed in many other things we don't believe in today. Evidence, information, and logic proves they were wrong on many accounts, on many things that we now know are wrong. The earth isn't the center of the Solar System and Universe just because Aristotle and other Greeks believed it. Polytheism is not correct because they believed it either. Monotheism, is not correct just because it resembles their beliefs either.

~
Instead, we can just evaluate things using our modern logic that's far more developed than theirs, and using all the modern information we have access to. Which I'd say would lead to a different conclusion, but that's not the point. The point is that modern reason should be trusted more than expired reasoning. Discussions on the topic should be grounded in modern views.

Originally posted by DumbTopSecretWriters
When you go to university and you take a class of logic who do they teach you about? The Greeks !

Thats what they go back the greeks.The rules of logic, when they teach you certian rules of logic.So who laid down those rules? Again , the greeks! It's known, the laws of logic were laid down by ancient greeks.Not to say that people may not done it before but far from historically, archaeologically, those are the earliest records of it, laid out systematically.The greeks known for their logics.

The point is that the greek logicians , plato , aristotle , greeks philosophers who used their minds to understand the world around them !What did they conclude , that there is no GOD? No, aristotle and plato and others conclude that there has to be a god !! so if it was soo illogical, how could the masters of logic come to conclusion that there has to be a god?

Makes You think !!!!

edit on 2-5-2012 by DumbTopSecretWriters because: (no reason given)

reply to post by DumbTopSecretWriters


Yes you're right, Plato and Aristotle believed in the gods. Of course, they weren't the christian concept of a God, but it doesn't matter. In fact, Aristotle's logic became exalted with the church and he reigned as the grand-master of logic for 2000 years—but that has changed. Modern philosophers refined logic and the way it's used, namely by showing the problems with Aristotle's syllogisms. Also, most modern philosophers are godless.

As Hegel pointed out in his Phänomenologie: no premises are explicit to start with; no problems are solved, but each problem is outgrown in turn while the level of consciousness rises. So, as god has almost been outgrown, and continues to be outgrown, logic continues to be useful. How is that possible if they're one in the same?

Aristotle's logic, as important as it was to the development of philosophy, is now pretty much useless to someone learning logic. And god? I would say god has never been useful to anyone attempting to learn logic.

Logic logic logic logic logic.

Logic is the mere beginning of wisdom.

But like religion, it too is misused. I've seen far too many people value logic above all else. They also demand that everybody use logic and those that don't use logic are beneath them. Those who value logic also think that they and only they have the truth and that everybody else must bow down before them. In other words, for some reason, logic tends to turn many people into arrogant pricks.

But there is one big huge weakness to logic that they tend to ignore.

Logic can be used to justify anything.

But be forewarned of the tricks the logical will use against you too. They'll say anything else is just reason, and to be ignored.

They also claim that logic is different than religion.

But if you come to the same conclusions about morality and use the same morality of religion, how different are you guys really? You just used a different means of deciding, but since you're doing the same behavior as the religious, how different are you really? Oh, wait, it can't be the same behavior because you used logic to rename it. Silly me.

That's like saying that a tennis shoe is not a tennis shoe because it has Velcro while the tennis shoe that has laces is a tennis shoe.

But in reality, a tennis shoe with laces and a tennis shoe with Velcro are still tennis shoes.

Logic has many faults. But overall, it is a good tool for finding out things. One should just be careful of extremist views, such as only logic can determine the truth. Any strongly held beliefs, regardless of the justification and wording behind it, are really no different than any other religious belief.

reply to post by DumbTopSecretWriters

When you go to university and you take a class of logic who do they teach you about? The Greeks !

Thats what they go back the greeks.The rules of logic, when they teach you certian rules of logic.So who laid down those rules? Again , the greeks! It's known, the laws of logic were laid down by ancient greeks.Not to say that people may not done it before but far from historically, archaeologically, those are the earliest records of it, laid out systematically.The greeks known for their logics.

Actually the Greeks themselves got it out of the big bang.

Because as science shows us without a shred of a doubt, the big bang started everything... so the big bang should get credit for logic.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Could you show me a geniune proof , that the greeks knew the big bang !!

I can and i'll tell you they couldn't figure that one out !

reply to post by DumbTopSecretWriters



If there is no God, then logic either always existed, or is a natural byproduct of the universe and ultimately man. And If God always existed, and he created everything, then he also created logic.


That is logic! lol


Although, how logic would create or happen itself, is a tricky question on it’s own, because it just doesn’t seem logical.


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft

Although, how logic would create or happen itself, is a tricky question on it’s own, because it just doesn’t seem logical.

The big bang proves that logic could create itself.
If God is non-existent, and if the big-bang is the only scientifically valid explanation for the origin of the universe...and all that is included within it.... then so be it.
Science has proven without doubt that logical thinking can emerge out of nothingness.