The Biblical Crucifixion

Why is there another thread on the same topic, allready covered by NUT?

Why not continue the discussion in the other thread?

vvv

Originally posted by VreemdeVlieendeVoorwep
Why is there another thread on the same topic, allready covered by NUT?

Why not continue the discussion in the other thread?

vvv

Because my scope was the medical perspective. And he was getting crap for going "off-topic" for talking about the crucifixion outside of that scope.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by MESSAGEFROMTHESTARS

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by MESSAGEFROMTHESTARS

 

It is not possible to prove anything with real historic accuracy with scripture, I wish people would understand this... but to each their own I suppose.

Bullcrap. There are archaeologists who go to the lands of the bible and use the text to locate things never found before. There are atheist historians who don't deny that Christ died on the cross who take the gospels as letters of historical record that they can subject to the same methods they apply to all historical texts of antiquity. They deny the supernatural aspects of the gospels, but not the historical aspects.

I suppose I mispoke, yet I did reiterate the point I was trying to make previously... and that is..
or should have been...

It is not possible to prove anything with real historic accuracy with ONLY scripture...

If you think that I am denying the accuracy as to 'Christ' dying on the cross, you are wrong in this assumption.

sorry for the confusion

My scope was FAR greater. Watch some videos about all the things they have found in the lands of the Bible. Jerhico, Sodom and Gomorrah, old city of David, pool of Salom, the list goes on and on. Most everything skeptics for centuries have condemned as innacurate have now been discovered with the Bible and archaeology. Including the real Mt. Sinai in Saudi Arabia (Jabal al Lawz), not Egypt.

I would hope so...

I'm not speaking as to the locations, and every event.. for they would obviously contain some accuracy, for the texts would have to contain said accuracies to be even considered to contain any truths... I'm speaking as to the divine aspects of the texts, 2 miracles, 5 loaves and 2 fish, speaking with god and such...

although I do hold the beliefe that these are not to be taken literally, and are metaphorically speaking... the only issue I have is those who apply divinity, that at the same time deny any notion of astronomy, astrology, numerology and all sorts of linguistic coding that the texts contain with in their references. Something that even St.Augustine of Hippo alluded to, in regards to numbers. And the idea that the stars and lights in the sky are to be used to mark sacred times, which goes directly against those that claim that the texts don't reflect a celestial religion.

The easiest way to PROVE this point, is to acknowledge the dates of Easter and Christmas, what they are to represent, and the specific date or dates in which they are celebrated, and what these dates reflect with in Earths relationship with the sun, which then lends towards a pagan/celestial religious aspect.

just as you state... my scope was FAR greater.

reply to post by MESSAGEFROMTHESTARS

The easiest way to PROVE this point, is to acknowledge the dates of Easter and Christmas, what they are to represent, and the specific date or dates in which they are celebrated, and what these dates reflect with in Earths relationship with the sun, which then lends towards a pagan/celestial religious aspect.

You need to talk to the Catholics about that, those are pagan holidays. Jesus was born between 2nd-9th of September 2 BC, and the first Christians celebrated Passover.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Um, Mel Gobson's "The Passion" was no embellishment. He was beaten so bad he was unrecognizeable. They dressed him in a purple robe, put a crown of thorns on his head and a stick in his hand for a scepter and then beat him on his head with the stick. They spit on him, jerked his beard out by the roots and jews never shave so his beard was long. They took a 9 tail whip to him that had bits of bone and sharp metal lead tips and flayed him alive giving him the 39 lashes, because at 40 lashes you would die and they ripped the flesh off his ribs so bad his ribs exposed.

But because scripture is silent on certain details of the Passion, several scenes in the movie aren't found in the Bible. Many of Gibson's additions are quite plausible embellishments of brief biblical mentions. Some came from other religious sources, like the visions of the mystic nuns

Read more: www.beliefnet.com...

The Hollywood movie Produced by Mel Gibson, is an outrageous and unbiblical representation of the crucifixion that relied on the visions of 2, long dead nuns, Sister Anne Emmerich and Maria of Agreda.

The violence and the torture of Jesus, depicted by Mel Gibson, isn't in the bible, at all. As a matter fact it is almost absent.

Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.

That's all there is. The rest is speculation and morbid wishful thinking.

Sister Annes Emmerich:

Anne Catherine Emmerich was an Augustian nun who lived in Germany from 1774 to 1824. She is remembered for her mystical visions of Jesus' and Mary's lives, recorded in works like "The Dolorous Passion."

Because of the uncertainty, Emmerich's writings are not being included in the Vatican process by which potential saints' lives are researched.
Read more: www.beliefnet.com...

Marie of Agreda

Venerable Mary of Agreda was a Spanish Franciscan nun, who lived between 1602 and 24 May 1665. Her Cause was almost immediately introduced after her death, in 1672, as she had lived a life of evident holiness in the eyes of her contemporaries. During her life she had experienced mystical phenomena including private revelations. The content of these revelations were written down under obedience and after her death were widely circulated in Spain. The most famous of these writings is the Mystical City of God: Divine History of the Virgin, Mother of God.

However, when Divine History came to the attention of the Holy Office (called today the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith), it was condemned on 4 August 1681, on the basis of an evaluation by the University of Paris, and put on the Index of Forbidden Books by Pope Innocent XI. The Pope subsequently suspended its effect, at the request of the King of Spain. www.ewtn.com...

As for Jesus having his beard plucked out, not in the bible. Wishful thinking on your part, Lonewolf.

Also, there is no biblical testimony of his ribs showing through torn flesh as he carried his cross. Again, morbid wishful thinking. Didn't happen.

Mel Gibson's version of the crucifixion of Jesus isn't based on biblical NT scripture, and thus in an unreliable testimony of any kind of truth, whatsoever.

reply to post by windword


Isaiah 50:6 "I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting."

reply to post by Iason321

1 Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.
2 Wherefore, when I came, was there no man? when I called, was there none to answer? Is my hand shortened at all, that it cannot redeem? or have I no power to deliver? behold, at my rebuke I dry up the sea, I make the rivers a wilderness: their fish stinketh, because there is no water, and dieth for thirst.
3 I clothe the heavens with blackness, and I make sackcloth their covering.
4 The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned.
5 The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back.
6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

Taken in context, or out of context, this verse just doens't apply to the crucifixion event.

reply to post by windword

That's all there is. The rest is speculation and morbid wishful thinking.

Many historians and writings from antiquity tell of a Roman scourging:

"The Romans employed scourging as torture or punishment to extract information or testimony."

Roman historian Livy, "Livy x.9" from the Westminster Dictionary of the Bible pg. 538

"Romans inflicted scourging on recalcitrant slaves or prisoners for withholding information and on criminals condemned to death by crucifixion."

New Catholic Encyclopedia 2003 pg. 756

"sometimes the victim died before the scourging was finished. Scourging sometimes lead to the death of the condemned person."

Harper's Bible Dictionary, pg. 914

"their bodies were frightfully lacerated. Christian martyrs in Smyrna were so torn by the scourges that their veins were laid bare, and the inner muscles, sinews, even entrails, were exposed."

Esubius, Westminster Dictionary of the Bible page 538

reply to post by windword


Here's some more re that Hollywood debacle:
(c/p from my post in the other EXISTING thread)...www.abovetopsecret.com...
I looked at the reviews for that movie today [4/27] (having finally figured out where you folks get this idea of him having been pretty much butchered before being strung/nailed up)....

I also figured out that if that movie is your reasoning for your wild claims of the absolute barbarity of his ordeal, and the 'medical doctor's assessment' of whether he died or not, you might need to be enlightened to some alternative 'stories'.

Is 'The Passion of the Christ' by Mel Gibson historically accurate?

Visions
Although 'The Passion' is based on the accounts of Jesus' trial and execution in the Biblical Gospels, some of the additional material comes from a book called 'The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ' by Anne Catherine Emmerich. Emmerich (1774-1824) was an Augustinian nun at the Convent of Agnetenberg, in Germany. She had many visions, and 'The Dolorous Passion' contains her visions of the sufferings of Christ.

If her visions were accepted as nothing more than imaginative reconstructions of what Christ's sufferings might have been like, there might not be a problem. But many people see them as revealing to us more information about the Life of Jesus Christ besides what we read of Him in the Bible. (A direct quotation from the Emmerich web site.)

There is a problem with this, in that it sets up another authority alongside the Bible - in this case, Emmerich's visions.

Comments on The Passion

We do not know what regulations, if any, existed in Roman Judaea. Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor who sentenced Jesus, would have had some latitude in devising and carrying out the punishment he decreed. While “flogging” and “beating” are attested in ancient sources, however, there are neither descriptions, pictorial representations, nor physical evidence for the brutal implement that is used at length and to such horrific effect in The Passion’s “scourging” scenes. Scourging as a practice is attested but the only weapon ever cited is a reed (Mark 15:19; Matt. 27:30). The Gospels are in fact quite terse in their rendition: “... after having Jesus scourged, he [Pilate] delivered Him over to be crucified” (Mark 15:15; cf. Matt. 27:26). Had Jesus been tortured in an exceptional manner (that is, had he been treated more harshly and differently than other crucifixion victims), this would presumably have been mentioned in the Gospels. The armed Jewish guards shown in the movie accompanying the high priests, who arrest and abuse Jesus, are pure fantasy (as are their costumes). The Romans would never have allowed the Jews to have their own army. Instead, the Gospels describe Jesus as being arrested by a “crowd of men with swords and clubs” (Mark 14: 43; Matt. 26:47, refers to a “great crowd”)

need more?

Even if The Passion adhered in every detail to the specific narratives of the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) or the Gospel of John, it would be neither accurate nor fair to take these texts as “scripts” for the arrest, trial, and crucifixion of Jesus. That is because these texts were not written down at the time, nor were they written by actual witnesses of these events. Instead they were composed two generations later and hundreds of miles away: between 70 and 90 C.E., and outside of the area of the Levant.

Because the Gospel authors were writing for an audience who did not live at the time or in the place of the events they were narrating, they worked to put the events of Jesus’ trial and death within the larger historical context of his life and mission. In his own narrative choices,...

pay attention, now:

... however, Mel Gibson has chosen to ignore what the Gospel writers strove to supply.

reply to post by windword

FLAGELLATION
The Roman whips varied from time to time and place to place. It must be remembered the Roman Empire was the dominant world power for around to 600 years! The cat o nine tails is a type of multi tailed whipping device that originally used as an implement for severe physical punishment. Usually made a cow or horse hide, with nine knotted lines. In the Roman Empire, flagellation was often used as a prelude to crucifixion, and in this context is sometimes referred to as scourging. Whips with small pieces of metal or bone at the tips were commonly used. Such a device could easily cause disfigurement and serious trauma, such as ripping pieces of flesh from the body or loss of an eye. In addition to causing severe pain, the victim would be made to approach a state of hypovolemic shock due to loss of blood.The Romans reserved this torture for non-citizens, as stated in the "lex Porcia" and "lex Sempronia", dating from 195 and 123 BC. The poet Horace refers to the "horrible flagellum" (horrible whip) in his "Satires", calling for the end of its use.

Let me use this thing on you 39 times, with hooks and bits of sharp metal in it and see what it does to you, k? Let me chain you to a large stake so you can't get away and have a go at you, we will see what you look like if you survive the beating.



Lets look at the crown of thorns with the kind of nails used. 5 inch nails for the hands, 7 inch nails for the feet.



Does any of this look fun to you? You would probably die from the scourging, sometimes people did.



Walk in the park huh?

Mark 15:15-20

15 So Pilate, wanting to gratify the crowd, released Barabbas to them; and he delivered Jesus, after he had scourged Him, to be crucified.
16 Then the soldiers led Him away into the hall called Praetorium, and they called together the whole garrison. 17 And they clothed Him with purple; and they twisted a crown of thorns, put it on His head, 18 and began to salute Him, “Hail, King of the Jews!” 19 Then they struck Him on the head with a reed and spat on Him; and bowing the knee, they worshiped Him. 20 And when they had mocked Him, they took the purple off Him, put His own clothes on Him, and led Him out to crucify Him.

“At this the multitude had great indignation; and when Pontius Pilate was come to Jerusalem, they came about his tribunal, and made a clamor at it. Now the Jews were so badly beaten, that many of them perished by the stripes they received, and many of them perished as trodden to death, by which means the multitude was astonished at the calamity of those that were slain, and held their peace.”
-Josephus – The Wars of the Jews- Book 2 Chapter 9

Pretty brutal if Josephus was writting about the beatings the jews gave him before Pilate had him scourged. Lets see what you look like after all this and then you try to minimize what happened to you.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


None of this is in the scriptures.

You can't find what you need in the actual text, that was carefully crafted by priest and politicians, so you Christians concoct the most morbid and vile scenario.

No, you can not use me in your sick fantasy of the 1000's of way you would murder and torture Jesus! Keep your creepy satanic projections to yourself!

As far as I'm concerned this issue has been thoroughly debunked in Noturtypical's thread, here. www.abovetopsecret.com...

/Issue closed