I am an Orthodox Christian and Historian; Almost Everything Most Know About The Church is False

Originally posted by EfficientP
reply to post by TruthSeekerMike

 

OP, Thanks for this neat thread. An interesting point that I think people should know about too is that the Council of Laodicea outlawed the Jewish Sabbath and supplanted it with the Lord's Day. The Jewish people practice the correct Sabbath, Friday Sunset to Saturday Sunset, yet the Catholic Church changed it to Sunday, hence, The Roman Catholic church has pushed a false and man-made Sabbath day.

en.wikipedia.org...

The major concerns of the Council involved regulating the conduct of church members. The Council expressed its decrees in the form of written rules or canons. Among the sixty canons decreed, several aimed at:
Maintaining order among bishops, clerics and laypeople (canons 3–5, 11–13, 21–27, 40–44, 56–57)
Enforcing modest behaviour of clerics and laypeople (4, 27, 30, 36, 53–55)
Regulating approach to heretics (canons 6–10, 31–34, 37), Jews (canons 16, 37–38) and pagans (canon 39)
Outlawing the keeping of the Jewish sabbath (Saturday) and encouraging rest on the Lord's Day (Sunday) (canon 29)
Outlining liturgical practices (canons 14–20, 21–23, 25, 28, 58–59)
Restrictions during Lent (canons 45, 49–52)
Admission and instruction of catechumens and neophytes (canons 45–48)
Specifying a Biblical canon (canons 59–60)

edit on 1-5-2012 by EfficientP because: (no reason given)

7. The council of Laodicea was only a local council, a small, unimportant affair, and not a general council at all.... The general councils are: 1. That at Nice, A. D. 325. 2. That at Constantinople, A. D. 381. 3. That at Ephesus, A. D. 431, etc. See the list in Johnson's Cyclopedia, or any history. Bower in his extensive work, the History of the Popes, gives an account of all the general councils, the important local councils, and all with which Rome or the popes had to do, but does not even mention this one at Laodicea.... 'This council is not even mentioned by Mosheim, Milner, Ruter, Reeves, Socrates, Sozomen, nor by four other historians on my table.' McClintock and Strong's Cyclopedia says: 'Thirty two bishops were present from different provinces in Asia.' All bishops of the Eastern church, not one from the Roman church! And yet this was the time and place when and where the Roman church and the pope changed the Sabbath.

"8. Now think of it: this little local council of thirtytwo bishops revolutionizes the whole world on the keeping of the Sabbath!

"9. The fact is that this council simply regulated in this locality an already long established institution, the Lord's Day, just the same as council after council did afterwards.... The Lord's Day had been kept by the church hundreds of years before the council of Laodicea mentioned it.

"10. The church of Laodicea where this council was held was raised up by Paul himself.... It was one of the seven churches to which John wrote (Rev. 3:14). Hence it is certain that it was well instructed and grounded in the doctrines of the apostles. Between Paul and this council, that is, A. D. 270, Anatolius was bishop of Laodicea. He wrote: "Our regard for the Lord's resurrection, which took place on the Lord's Day, will lead us to celebrate it on the same principle' (Canon 16). Here we have that church keeping Sunday one hundred years before this council.

"11. Finally, if the Council of Laodicea changed the Sabbath, as Adventists say, then it was changed by the Greek church instead of the Roman church) changed by the Eastern churches over which Rome had no authority; [157]
Source:
www.churchofgodcarmichael.org...

Xristos Anesti! A very interesting post and I am personally glad to see someone post a topic dealing with what we really know historically about the early church and how it developed into its current form. I too am an Orthodox Christian after being in a Protestant pastorate for many years. Ultimately, I think, everyone has to decide for themselves what constitutes "truth." For me, the truth of the Orthodox claim to be the remant of the original church is not only historically verifiable but is also experiential. There is just something about the faith and practice that recommends itself to me in a way that does not easily lend itself to communication...it just IS if you get my drift. Of course, many people will not get this concept as they will look for information that already lends itself to their preconceptions of knowledge and faith; but for me, the Orthodox faith, well, it's just like breathing. Natural. Right. and very satisfying. Frankly, I have to quote the first sentence in Sergi Bulkakov's "The Orthodox Church": "The Orthodox Church is the Kingdom of God on earth." This would be an over-the-top statement if it just wasn't so true. Thanks for staring the thread!

Oh, sorry by the way, with reference above to the Council of Laodicia, the theology of theOrthodox Church in reagrds to translating the Sabbath to Sunday ("The Lord's Day), is that the Sabbath as the day of rest was fulfilled and recapitulated in the Resurrection. On Holy Saturday the Church sings "This is the blessed Sabbath. This is the day of rest when the unoriginate Son and Word of God rested from all His works through the dispensation of death. He rested in the tomb." There was no need of more prophetic "looking ahead" to the Sabbath as it was fulfilled in Christ's death and rest in the tomb. The Council recognized that now we have entered into the "Eight Day", the new creation of God when the Israel of God moved from a specific race to all people, everywhere for all time. For those that still look at the previous covenant, even the prophets looked foward to a time when all of creation would rejoice in a new creation not dependent on a written Law but when God would write the law in the heart's and mind's of men everywhere. This new and mystical Sabbath is not a completion or remembrance of the end of God's original creation but the beginning of the new creation. It has nothing to do with a Constantinian affectation with the Sun's Day at all. It could have been a Monday or a tuesday for that matter. What is important for us in the Orthodox faith is that it is the day of Resurrection and that Resurrection is the first day of everything God has done in in demonstrating the death is a dispensation, not an ending but a beginning into real life. The day of rest is done. Finished. Now we are entering into the New Day, the first day of the rest of God's history. The Council just stated what Christians believed. Many Councils have promulgated certain opinions that the Church (that is the people) rejected, for example the Robber Council of Ephesus. That the Council of Laodicia did, in fact, express the right belief and the right dogma and that it has stood the test of time and practice in the Life of the Church, is a simple testament to its veracity. We Orthodox are not Sheeple who are lead blindly around through a hierarchial magesterium, we take our bishops and councils pretty seriously, except when they deviate from the historical faith and practice of what has been handed down to us, unlike our seperated brethern in the West who are taught blind obedience to someone speaking "ex cathedra." For us, when God speaks through a person or a council, He speaks to the whole church but that speech is not for private interpretation, it is the whole body of believers who then as a body accepts or rejects this message as either being in syngergy with what has been given previously or not. The history of heresy or literally "party politics" is the history of deviation too far to the right or left of the narrow middle path. In fact, a "theologian" is not someone formally trained in "theology" as an academic discipline but someone whose heart and mind is so focused on God that he or she becomes a conduit for instruction based on the experience of God. The Church then judges whether or not that experience is indicative of the whole revelation or just someone's private opinion. So forgive the ramble but hopefully it adds to the discussion. XB!!

reply to post by TruthSeekerMike


To the OP - I understand that Jesus was a Jew and went by the Law of Moses. Jesus also wanted all to know that by understanding Him and His ways was the path to the Kingdom of God.

This Church you speak of...well, is all about money and power. Money and power isn't a sin, but the lust for it can be seen as a sin. Jesus never said we all have to pay monies to the church - he just wanted us to help the less fortunate (not the lazy welfare/baby factory bums). Jesus also wanted us to give into the spirit...not give into what the church calls a spirit so they get more money and power. We must keep the Sabbath holy, work hard, and help those in REAL need (elderly, deformed, sick, etc).

WWJD - he would bitch slap all of us for being so gullible.

reply to post by Hydroman


Touche.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by DominusIlluminatioMea
Except Catholics pray to Mary, do they not? Therefore making her an idol.

:shk: Catholics do not worship Mary. People really need to read the Catechism ...
Catholic Answers - everything Catholics believe about Mary
Catechism of the Catholic Church - "Worship belongs to God alone"

edit on 5/1/2012 by FlyersFan because: fixed link

I went to a catholic primary school and was made to say the "hail mary,mother of god" prayer
many times during the week,every week for all the 7 years I went to that school.

God’s law and His wrath should never be used to drive anyone toward legalism. It must be used to drive them to the foot of the blood-stained cross. The law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith, and those who have repented and trusted Christ will be radically changed. They will not be able to go on sinning, because they have been born of God. They will not claim God’s name and continue in unrepentant wickedness, but, out of love for God the thankfulness for His grave, and through the power of the Holy Spirit, they will be changed from the inside out, and their behavior will reflect that.

So encourage people to examine themselves, test themselves to see if they are in the faith. By God’s grace, maybe you will have the privilege to seeing someone repent and trust the Savior before your eyes.

Have a good day

reply to post by TruthSeekerMike


You are an orthodox Christian; Most about the Bible is false. The story of GENESIS and adam and eve from the TORAH (3316 years old), which is the old testament, is actually a telephone version of the story of modern man adamu and modern woman TIAMAT depicted in The Sumerian tablets (4,500 years old). HUH, after all these years of archeology, the Sumerians are the oldest known civilization. HUH. Just saying.

What gets me is that adam sent his 4 sons north south east and west to procreate. Wait adam eve and their 4 sons are the only people on earth. Who did adam and eves sons "procreate with. Monkeys. HAHAHA ahhhhh no. Christianity busted already. Sorry to soil your britches. Really though any documented artifacts, carbon dated, or record of history shouldn't shake your belief in Christianity should it. I mean the most proof you have is scrolls telling stories that bear an un mistakable resemblence to something written 1187 years before the Old testament was documented.

Not that I shame the BELIEF of Christianity. If you go to church every Wednesday and Sunday and leave when you are in a questionable situation you THINK TO YOUR SELF, not hear the word of GOD, GOD WOULDN'T WANT ME TO DO THIS. And those that go to church are "mostly", good people. That much is tru. But, sadly after many of years of going to church, and I still do for that feeling of godliness I receive "WHEN I LEAVE" to keep me on the straight and narrow, sadly I came to the realization that the BIBLE is a bunch of hog wash.

edit: also, here is a site comparing the two storys...
comparison of the story of genesis and the story of modern man

edit on 2-5-2012 by ringlejames because: (no reason given)

reply to post by ringlejames

Originally posted by ringlejames
"But, sadly after many of years of going to church, sadly I came to the realization that the BIBLE is a bunch of hog wash."

I actually went to your link and read as much as I could, after reading things like this I had to stop:

"Moses was also considered to be one of the greatest Wizards of all time."

"Why Pagans are more “christian” than Christians"

"Jesus is son of Enki artificially implanted in to Maria "

"Well actually I believe Jesus to be a fictional Character."

"I don't believe the bible to be the word of God."

"the Bible is dripping with Paganism and Witchcraft"

There's a lot of things I disagree with when it comes to Orthodox doctrine, but these things I just quoted pretty much put you out into some seriously dangerous and uncharted territory.

I did see ONE thing that I actually DID agree with:

"Sitchen is a pagan Jesuit and a liar starting this whole new age bs out of the Vatican."






I did notice a LOT of these little flags which got my attention of course:

Just out of curiosity, that church you went to, WHAT did they teach you?

Just in case your church forgot to tell you: "You must be born again..."

The man in your avatar took that advice the day before he was killed and is in Heaven as a result. All those accusations on that JFK “wanted” poster meant NOTHING once he took God at His word and surrendered his life to God. But of course the BIBLE is a bunch of hog wash to you so maybe I'm just wasting my breath here....

EDIT: Wasn't that you that started a thread called "Why do we deny the truth?"
Just something to think about...

reply to post by TruthSeekerMike


S & F..............What is you opinion of the King James Version of the Bible?

Which "Bible" comes closest to not being "corrupted" in your opinion?

Originally posted by ofhumandescent
reply to post by TruthSeekerMike

 

S & F..............What is you opinion of the King James Version of the Bible?

Which "Bible" comes closest to not being "corrupted" in your opinion?

star for you, and S+F for the thread. I posted the same question a few pages back. For someone to boldly come on here and call out main stream religion yet still believe in the core of Christianity, I want to know what this person does for a bible.

reply to post by TruthSeekerMike


Ive studied a lot too regarding the early roman pontificates and their role in the bastardisation of the message of Christ etc..but personally..I keep coming back to a simple truth, that Jesus, when he called them to serve, said to follow HIM; that Jesus said HE would build HIS church on this rock.

That He would...not the popes or even the apostles ( as evidenced when Jesus called Peter an adversary/satan in the biblical account...Jesus (appeared to know) or already knew what Peter would do with the gold laid at his feet by repentant ( after Jesus's death) local nobilities, and how he would be used by the romans to subvert the message/gospel).

So if HE is doing it..why are people following 'church leaders'? Why arent they following Him? Why is their faith ' in the 'church' and in church doctrine, and not in Jesus?
Why do they rely on the ( humanly manipulated and several times reinterpreted) bibles words and not the spirit of Jesus himself?
If those biblical words are truth, then even they lead you to that Spirit..as that was what was left for us to find...so why believe instead of act on his teachings and so, learn and know his spirit and The Way and Life for yourself?

Given the infancy of my own journey of action rather than believing, I could never intelelctually or spiritualy explain that oddity to myself with any success..I had to let go of people too....but it still bugs me, even given the human need to belong and the sharing of a faith etc...as it never made sense to me, why otherwise rational people would enter into wilfull religous and spiritual slavery.

A lot of people seem to be questioning their beliefs lately..and I think this is a very good thing. I do see many people who've been following church/religious doctrines instead of the message of Christ are being given a wake up call as to what they have really been believing 'in'. Its always hard to question indoctrination..but I hope more do..and so..become open to possibilities beyond doctrine.

Here is the original Lords Prayer in Aramaic...
As an example of how religous groups twist a simple premise..there's no better.

If you like, are game, compare it yourself to the roman catholic version. This one, like Jesus, has no power or fear mongering overtones..has a cosmological view ie: no limited gender based view of God or The One who sent Jesus...is quietly wise, has no impolite demand for God to 'feed us" ...says nothing of cowering fear or demands for fear or repentance ' or else'...it just exudes love..respect...compassion...acceptance...everything Christs own life implied was essential to a spiritual way of life. It also speaks to mankind having a purpose...it doesnt diminsh us to cowering slaves of gods..rather it elludes to the notion we are part of a universal flow of life to and from 'The One' that Jesus came from....the progenitors/birthers of all life in the cosmos.

Shrugs..given how hard those things are..( love respect compassion and acceptance)...its not the easier softer way by any means..as it does require maturity and a challenging of self and belief...but to me this early interpretation is certainly a more respectful ( of life and God/The father and mother) and a more fulfiling less self absorbed way of living and believing....this one makes us a part of 'it'..of something bigger..the roman catholic one..reduces us..seperates us from 'it' entirely.

Lords Prayer Original Aramaic
Translation by Neil Douglas-Klotz in Prayers of the Cosmos



O Birther! Father- Mother of the Cosmos

Focus your light within us - make it useful.

Create your reign of unity now-

through our fiery hearts and willing hands

Help us love beyond our ideals

and sprout acts of compassion for all creatures.

Animate the earth within us: we then

feel the Wisdom underneath supporting all.

Untangle the knots within

so that we can mend our hearts' simple ties to each other.

Don't let surface things delude us,

But free us from what holds us back from our true purpose.

Out of you, the astonishing fire,

Returning light and sound to the cosmos.

Amen.





Regardless of what your believing or living I supose..it's all good eventually...and I figure that out of piles of shi*t..beautiful roses grow


cheers

Ro

Great post, OP. Many Christians are fed up with "organized religion". Rightly so. It has strayed so far from what Jesus said. The fault can be traced to the Old Testament Yahweh. Was he an imposter God? Why would a truely loving God be so cruel to His own people?

I follow author and researcher Dr Joseph P Farrell, who recently authored a couragous e-book entitled Yahweh The Two-Faced God: Theology, Terrorism, and Topology (Apocalypse Theater).

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1335959497&sr=1-6

I would highly reccomend this work to all who are searching for meaning when seekng the true God. It will, "...expose the history behind the End of Times apocalyptic panic and pandemonium; the theological terror; the underlying agenda to divide saints from sinners, darkness from light, and the accompanying geopolitical aim to turn nation against nation."

Originally posted by ChuckNasty
reply to post by TruthSeekerMike

 

To the OP - I understand that Jesus was a Jew and went by the Law of Moses. Jesus also wanted all to know that by understanding Him and His ways was the path to the Kingdom of God.

This Church you speak of...well, is all about money and power. Money and power isn't a sin, but the lust for it can be seen as a sin. Jesus never said we all have to pay monies to the church - he just wanted us to help the less fortunate (not the lazy welfare/baby factory bums). Jesus also wanted us to give into the spirit...not give into what the church calls a spirit so they get more money and power. We must keep the Sabbath holy, work hard, and help those in REAL need (elderly, deformed, sick, etc).


WWJD - he would bitch slap all of us for being so gullible.

The Orthodox Church is about money and power? Never heard that one before. Methinks you have no idea what the Orthodox Church is about. Good job regurgitating your conditioning though!

Threads like this are amusing, yet at the same time, pathetic. Virtually none of the the discussion about organized religion is based in truth.

Truth: There is no omnipresent, omniscient being, who supposedly effected the creation of the universe, but is also intimately involved in the lives of the people on this planet. No known evidence supports the existence of such a being, and the belief in such is supported entirely by "faith". Were a voice out of the clouds to be heard, as stated in the bible, and in such a way that it was impossible to be a hoax, then it would be credible. Until then, it just isn't.

Truth: Mankind's history is far more convoluted than most would even dare to imagine. The few verses in Genesis 6 which speak about the "sons of god" and the "daughters of men" is far more illustrative of the true course of events than any belief in some ethereal being who effortlessly "made everything so".

Truth: The bible is a massive copyright infringement, if such rights existed back when it was compiled. Its contents are assembled from far more ancient texts, many of which were misinterpreted and misstated, some of it by design, some through simple ignorance.

Truth: There are no contemporaneous accounts of Jesus' life. None. Not one. He is a fictional character who was created to be the figurehead of a movement to establish generational mind control and take people's money. It worked like a charm.

All of this caterwauling about the tenets and history of the church is nothing but a literal circle jerk. None of it is real.

One Word....

Yadabaoth


If it was good enough for the Earliest Christian Gnostics BEFORE the canonization of the Bible and the purge, why woudn't be good enough now?

Read the Gospel of Thomas and the Secret Book of John to start. They are real. They are not pretend or created by some monk in the middle ages. They were found in the most ancient libraries that survived the purge and in the Nag Hammadi scrolls and the Dead Sea Scrolls. The belief system in the 4th century BC through the 2nd Century AD was very different than what is depicted now.

Just more of the weekly bashing. And the Christians seem fair game. Well good for youall, hopefully you will alarm some feeble minds, or turn them off entirely. Score for you...! When all the Christians are used up, what then, Creationists or evolutionists, maybe Democrats or Repubs. or even socalists or communists. Then move on to gays or hetro's and even vegans or meateaters. Why not go to the race's, thats an easy one. Heak Everyone should have the same rights to believe and practice as the want with no disruption by anyone else. Hedonists, mystics, pro lifers, pedophiles, murders, theives, polygamists, satanists, protagonists, antagonists, philanthropists, workaholics, scientists heak everybody deserves free will and to practice as they see fit without hinderance and with the permission of the world comunity. Anything should be game if were truely free, dont'cha think....

Your enlightenment speaks volumes. There needs to be a one world community, all working toward the greater good, no superstitions or religions, no accountability, and reward for all, or 'participated' ribbons to everyone. Get rid of God and anything mentioning Him, burn all the books and start anew, with the Community of Man. I
m sure you will find that preferable to a world with Christians in it. Oh well, what do I know, I'm only an old man, in search of a good place to nap. You guys are our future. I know it will be for the best, your plans and convictions. A new religion as it were.

Originally posted by TruthSeekerMike

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by TruthSeekerMike

 

My point is,few people actually know what church is because their understanding of it started from the Roman pope's church.

"Church" is the great outdoors....the more uncontrolled and unimproved by man, the better.
"Church" is our Earth.
"God" is all that we see outside of our windows. It is love, light, joy, happiness, connectedness, compassion, friendship, laughter.
Faith and hope lie within each of us. We just need to stop looking to a dark, dank structure and a bunch of others (preachers, priests, deacons, rectors, ministers, whatever) telling us how crappy we all are.
Namaste

edit on 30-4-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

Church is actually a place with beautiful things that glorify God and where his people can meet as a community to pray and sing as a community, as God intended. It's not a dank dark place--that's what you know it as because you've been duped and that's what they fed you as church. No guy standing at a lectern telling me I suck is Church or even close to it.
You are so right about God and faith and where to look. You are telling me true Christianity and don't even know it. I go to the original Church (known now as Eastern Orthodoxy) and I can assure you, your thoughts are very close to what Christ taught.

Church simplified:
"For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them." Matthew 18:20

I am a spiritual person and believe in a God however I am not a religious person. I went to church with my mother one Sunday and when leaving the church her pastor shook my hand and said that he would like to see me there more and asked why I never came to church.

I replied to him that since I work a lot of hours during the week I spend my Sundays either out on the water fishing or in the woods hunting. He replied that I needed to make time for God and should spend the Sabbath day in his presence.

I looked at him and told him that I feel that I am much closer to God when I am surrounded by all the wonderful things that he made, the nature and wildlife, watching the sun rise over the water, sitting in the woods hearing the sounds of the wind and birds chirping. These are gods works and that is when I am closest to him, not when I am sitting in a building that was built by man listening to the voice of a man.

The temple is within us all, we are all the temple of God.

reply to post by TruthSeekerMike


What do you think as to the modern forms of Christianity being in fact the worship of the anti-christ instead of christ himself. The teachings, ideals and morals of todays Church portray the opposite of Jesus' message and church which could lead one to believe that Christians are being decieved and manipulated.