I am an Orthodox Christian and Historian; Almost Everything Most Know About The Church is False

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by TruthSeekerMike

 

History of the Church means nothing. All it takes is a word and the exchange of gold (or whatever currency or favor happens to be convenient) and an entire section is rewritten according to satisfaction.

Really, I would really on historical documents coming from discredited people. After all, if they've been discredited, it's for a reason, right? But make sure to check the sources anyway.

I will ask you a question base on logic Starchild. Please don't take offense to anything below, I am just putting up examples to try and illustrate something.

Have you ever had a thought that something you were doing or wanted to do was not right? I mean in a sinful sort of way. You know maybe something simple like having an extra drink at a party, or maybe something more complex like looking at pornography. Now you could not figure out why there was anything wrong with what you were doing so you did it anyway, especially when you were younger.

The question is this. If something was telling you not to do something but you justified your actions as "not a big deal" then who was it that gave you the thought that what you were doing might be wrong?

If the idea belonged to you, would you not have listened to yourself? But if the idea came from God is it easy to see why you might have justified yourself, because you did not realize that the thought was coming from the Holy Spirit and did not originate with you.

If you can accept that those thoughts are from the Holy Spirit than you can no longer justify your actions, and instead of justifying yourself you will find yourself being the enquiring student. If you enquire the Holy Spirit will teach you why your action is wrong. If you justify you will learn nothing but you will most likely be judged for not obeying the Holy Spirit. Although you will likely not understand that you are facing judgment because you failed to believe in the Spirit in the first place.

reply to post by sacgamer25


Nope. I have second-guessed myself plenty of times, but I still did it. Why? Because if you never take a risk, if you never experience life, with both rights and wrongs, you will never really know life itself.

Originally posted by sacgamer25

Originally posted by TruthSeekerMike

1 Timothy4:1-6 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
6 If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.

I ask you this simple question who is telling you to abstain from certain foods and telling widowed priests not to remarry? Why are they teaching things that scripture says not to teach? I am not asking you to abstain from anything, I am merely asking you to listen to the Holy Spirit. If you do this there is nothing else that I have to tell you, because Christ will answer everything else for you.

You do realize that Paul was writing to Timothy who was a Priest and later a Bishop right? The same Paul who wrote "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." and "the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also." That last quote is from the same book you quote but an earlier chapter. In fact, there's an awful lot of very Church-specific things in Timothy. The verses you chose exemplify the need for unchanging tradition. It's not about rules or foods, it's about keeping the fullness of the truth of the Gospel alive untarnished.

Timothy was a bishop according to who? You do realize the bible only speaks of three different roles in the church.

The apostle, who is someone who travels around spreading the good news, most closely related to missionary. The apostles all worked with their hands to provide an income when they traveled. Paul actually considered it robbery when he had to take money from the church for his travels.

The Overseer, who is someone who is responsible for the church meeting, probably settling disputes in the church. This was the head office in the church with only the Apostles having more authority. Interestingly enough the apostles and the Overseers worked for a living and it was actually required that the Overseer be someone who worked and could take care of his own family. There is never mention of a priest who stands at a pulpit and earns his living from talking to the congregation each week. This would be church tradition but not biblical.

Finally there is the Deacon whose wife was a Deaconess. Their primary role was to cook and serve dinner the Lord's Supper, most closely related to usher. After all it was the Lord's Supper eaten at church not the Eucharist, at least in the bible. Sharing the Lord's Supper at church is biblical, the Eucharist is church tradition.

So your church tells you that Timothy was a Bishop, even the role of Bishop, as it the church currently recognizes it, is not found anywhere in the bible. Both Paul and Timothy gave credit to Christ as the teacher, but you think that the church holds the keys to understanding. Paul says repeatedly that it is not he but the Holy Spirit at work in him that is providing the inspiration for his letters.

Do you think only Priests and Bishops hear from the Holy Spirit?

edit on 7-5-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

You haven't read the bible, you've found verses to support your feelings. Did you miss chapter 3 wjen you were quoting chapter 4? "This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deac

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by TruthSeekerMike

 

I would ask you the same thing I asked sacgamer. Define "Holy Spirit"...using words that do not come from the Bible. Tell me, in your own words, the universal definition of the Holy Spirit. A definition that does not come from the Bible.

The Holy Spirit is the uncreated energies of God, the Spirit is God. The Holy Spirit is the essence of God in each of us. The Holy Spirit in incomprehensible to the mind because it dwells in the soul (the heart--the nous)

Sacgamer,how exactly would you know if an idea came from "god".

To those of you who are saying that you are "spiritual".
What exactly is "spiritual"???

To OP, Where did the apostles get their education?
Why did they wait 60 or more years to do their writings?
And why did they write in Greek?

So if it was 325 or 400 or so CE that the "bible" was written, How many copies were made?
Who had possession of them?

And when the printing press was invented and the bible was printed, what was the reference used to set the type.
Do you think there were any 1000 + year old scrolls still around"?

Actually there were NOT.

Also you need to know that in the early days of Rome ONLY the elites were allowed to write.
They wrote the History.
They invented Christianity.
You have noticed haven't you?, that History is the story of the Royal Families and their fights with other Royal Families.
Broaden your knowledge. Try this for starters:
www.bibliotecapleyades.net...
www.bibliotecapleyades.net...
www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

reply to post by TruthSeekerMike

Bishops and Overseers are described as one who is responsible for the church. The descriptions are virtually identical

The office of bishop and overseerer are the same role. And even if they are not they are both to be men who work and take care of their family prior to assuming the role. And they are commanded by Paul to work to not be a burden to the church. I did not say that thier is no mention of bishop,but i did say thier is no mention of bishop that describes the role of bishop as we see it today.

By the way I have been studying the bible for approximately 7 years and read the entire new testamentat least 15 times. And have studied much of the new testament, compared all different views that I could find and in my searching I realized that listening to Christ was far more valuable than any passage in the bible. The spirit has changed me and taught me how to love my neighbor.

Originally posted by OhZone
Sacgamer,how exactly would you know if an idea came from "god".

Most people will look at that as a tuff question but I believe it is easy to answer. There are two parts to the answer.

Part 1 if the logic is more complex than I believe that I could have come up with myself. Let me give you an example that has to do with God's will and free will.

Your will is only to do God's will or not to do God's will. Both paths have predetermined outcomes based on God's will. If you do God's will than you know the outcome is God's will. If you choose not to do God's will than you will never know the will of God. This is a concept that is beyond my ability to reason for myself but the Holy Spirit has indeed reasoned this concept for me.

Part 2 by the fruit. You can only be guided by good or evil and only God is good. So if you follow what you believe to be the Holy Spirit than the result should be good. If the result is bad than you have been fooled by an evil spirit. Here is an example.

I may decide to enter into a relationship and I believe that I am being led by good. If the relationship turns out positive and remains within the moral code of scripture than I can be sure it was the Holy Spirit. If the relationship is negative and does not follow the moral code of scripture than it is the spirit of this world that I have followed, probably out of lust.

Quite simply the Holy Spirit will teach you truth in a way that you can understand things previously not understood. And the fruit of following the Holy Spirit will always be good.

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

Nope. I have second-guessed myself plenty of times, but I still did it. Why? Because if you never take a risk, if you never experience life, with both rights and wrongs, you will never really know life itself.

This is very true and we were created to learn. God created man and woman so that they may experience a fall from Grace so that he may forgive us. In this way he could teach us the knowledge of good and evil without it leading to the death of our spirit.

At some point in your life you may come to realize that you are slave to the desires of the flesh, be it lust, material possessions or greed. It is when you can realize that you are a slave to these things that you can turn to God and ask for a better way.

I had realized that I was living my life for the flesh and I prayed earnestly for a way out. Even committing myself to God's will to the point of hell, and accepting that hell would be a worthy punishment for not loving my neighbor. The strange thing is I did not do this for any reason other than to let God know that I was tired of fighting against him and that I could see my life was not headed in the direction he wanted me to go.

I do not consider myself more righteous than the one who has not realized this, but simply accept that God's will, will be done on earth. We only have the choice to accept or reject this lesson. And the teacher is the Holy Spirit.

reply to post by TruthSeekerMike


I think I may have come across as attacking your views on your church, when really my whole point can be summed up in one question.

Does your church teach you to ask the Holy Spirit for guidance and teach you how to listen?

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by TruthSeekerMike

 

Does your church teach you to ask the Holy Spirit for guidance and teach you how to listen?

It truly does.

Originally posted by TruthSeekerMike

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by TruthSeekerMike

 

Does your church teach you to ask the Holy Spirit for guidance and teach you how to listen?

It truly does.

I have read much on the Orthodox views but could not find a specific answer to that question. If I were going to believe in the one true church, yours appears the closest to what the bible actually says. Looking through the beliefs of your church I think you would consider me Christian even though we may not agree on everything, and I believe that is what is most important. We must not allow ourselves to be separated by feelings of self righteousness. We have all fallen short and our saved by the Grace of our father.

Originally posted by OhZone
Sacgamer,how exactly would you know if an idea came from "god".

To those of you who are saying that you are "spiritual".
What exactly is "spiritual"???

To OP, Where did the apostles get their education?
Why did they wait 60 or more years to do their writings?
And why did they write in Greek?

So if it was 325 or 400 or so CE that the "bible" was written, How many copies were made?
Who had possession of them?

And when the printing press was invented and the bible was printed, what was the reference used to set the type.
Do you think there were any 1000 + year old scrolls still around"?

Actually there were NOT.

Also you need to know that in the early days of Rome ONLY the elites were allowed to write.
They wrote the History.
They invented Christianity.
You have noticed haven't you?, that History is the story of the Royal Families and their fights with other Royal Families.
Broaden your knowledge. Try this for starters:
www.bibliotecapleyades.net...
www.bibliotecapleyades.net...
www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

The Bible wasn't written in 325, it was written long before; mostly during the generation that lived with Christ. The books of the Bible had been held in many churches throughout the Roman world long before it was canonized. The originals were in Greek because that was the language spoken in the areas that Christianity flourished and where the Apostles preached. You are falling for the exact conspiracy I am talking about in this whole thread. You my fried are the one being fooled by false history. Western Europe was in dark ages while Christianity flourished unchanged in the East. There were no dark ages in Byzantium and plenty of copies of the Bible.

The reason you think "they" invented it is because "they" hijacked it in the West and used it to dominate people and gain territory. Funny how "they" never tell you about Byzantium's 1000 years of peace, freedom and Christian culture. Trust me, I am a bonafide conspiracy expert and I know the standard ct idea that Christianity was just a tool to control people, but that just doesn't stand the test of further dispassionate research. I dug because I seek truth. Most dig to satisfy and feed their inner script; that's not research it's affirmation.

Originally posted by sacgamer25

Originally posted by TruthSeekerMike

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by TruthSeekerMike

 

Does your church teach you to ask the Holy Spirit for guidance and teach you how to listen?

It truly does.

I have read much on the Orthodox views but could not find a specific answer to that question. If I were going to believe in the one true church, yours appears the closest to what the bible actually says. Looking through the beliefs of your church I think you would consider me Christian even though we may not agree on everything, and I believe that is what is most important. We must not allow ourselves to be separated by feelings of self righteousness. We have all fallen short and our saved by the Grace of our father.

If you love Jesus Christ and live by the Holy Spirit, then I can only imagine you are a Christian, only God knows a mans heart. I hope no one has gotten the idea that anyone is calling anyone any less or more Christian in this discussion. My whole point has been that the Orthodox faith is historically, provably, and verifiably the first expression of Christianity. The book of Acts describes its formation and its own documented history tells the rest of the story of the Church until today; unchanged in faith, doctrine and practice. It cannot be denied that without the Church there would be no Bible. One of the big things that made me convert was understanding that the Bible is part of Church tradition and has only been delivered to the world through the Church. Then I went to an Orthodox Church and experienced what worshiping in spirit and truth as a body is all about.
Here is something you may find interesting and enlightening:
dormitionpgh.org...
Excerpt:
"The contention that Orthodox Believers regard the Bible with less importance than certain other Christian churches is, obviously, false and could not be further from the truth. The Bible is treated with great respect by the Orthodox Church and is a part of our Holy Tradition. The Book of Gospels has a special place of honor on the altar of every Orthodox Church, and is carried in processions during Matins and the Divine Liturgy. Worshippers even kiss it, as does the clergy. Moreover, the Holy Bible is the primary source for the worship services of the Orthodox Church. The Psalter is used extensively during Matins and Vespers, especially during Lent and before the great feasts of the Church. But, the best example of the Holy Scripture being used in Orthodox Christian worship is contained within the primary worship service of the Orthodox Christian Church: The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom."

OP: what are your thoughts about the Holy Spirit's baptism of fire? not water, Fire. What does this mean to you, just out of curiosity.

Originally posted by DominusIlluminatioMea
OP: what are your thoughts about the Holy Spirit's baptism of fire? not water, Fire. What does this mean to you, just out of curiosity.

"For as the earth which is fertile and rich, but is not cultivated, tends to be filled with thorns, so also with our nature: While it is good because of the Creator who made it, and because it is capable of producing the fruits of virtue, it actually produces thorns and the useless matter of impiety because it does not receive and accept the plow of piety nor the seed of the knowledge of God. And as the face of the earth is often not visible because of the multitude of thorns and other wild plants, so also with the noble and pure aspect of our soul, which does not show through, until such time as the Husbandman of our human nature comes to put the fire of the Spirit in it, to purify it and to make it appropriate to receive the heavenly seed unto fruition"

God intends that the church experience Holy Fire in its ministry.

"Christianity in America is dying from the lack of it. Millions of saved North Americans wrongly assume that they have had heard the full gospel message when they have not–proving that "None is so enslaved as he who falsely believes he is free." Being "born again" is the initiation into the Christian life; it is not the climax, nor is it the final grace-encounter with God. God intends our salvation experience to open the door to greater visitations with the Holy Spirit.

Modern Christianity has cheated believers out of their great potential; it has cut their blossom when still a bud and denied them the glory of becoming a fully opened flower. Life in Christ is much, much more than the modern gospel has allowed. Blazing, unstoppable, out-of-control, New Testament Revival would immediately slam into North America like "lightening striking a tree" if the clergy would stop its’ prideful opposition to God and receive the Holy Spirit’s fullness." Source

"I dug because I seek truth. Most dig to satisfy and feed their inner script; that's not research it's affirmation."

Well said Mike... all of us may disagree on issues but what you said is SO important to understand for anyone who desires to know TRUTH. Couldn't have said it better...

The church is not a man-made organization or building made of wood and stone. Rather it is the called-out ones (ekklessia) who follow Christ. The kingdom of God is within. See also: www.hallvworthington.com...

reply to post by DominusIlluminatioMea


Many years back, I read somewhere that in the 12 (?) centuary, the pope ordered that all references to reincarnation should be removed from the bible, as if thieves believed that hanging would cause them to start a new life, rather than burn in hell, they would have no fear of the punishment, therefore would continue to sin.

I do not recall where I read this, so can not check the accuracy of the statement.

Can you tell me if this is true, also are there any other important references that have been removed to ensure our compliance to the current teachings?

Originally posted by Innerlight
The church is not a man-made organization or building made of wood and stone. Rather it is the called-out ones (ekklessia) who follow Christ. The kingdom of God is within. See also: www.hallvworthington.com...

That is true. Orthodoxy isn't a church or a religion it's the community you speak of.