It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Simple Irrationalities Are The Best Way To Show The World Apollo Was Fake

page: 4
10
<< 1  2  3    5  6  7 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on May, 4 2012 @ 06:08 AM
link   
reply to post by DJW001
 


Won't go there with you. Would be very happy, actually most elated, to discuss the Shepard case specifically, the Borman case specifically and so forth. Will discuss genuine Apollo stuff. Other "hypotheticals" are not relevant and will not waste my time. Won't be distracted by other bull. That said, as regards the specifics of the Shepard and Borman cases, happy to go into as much detail as anyone likes.

Other stuff, no.

The question as regards Shepard, the medical question was/is, assuming he was diagnosed with Meniere's Disease in or around 1962, and assuming House surgerized him in or around 1968, given the understanding/beliefs about Meniere's at the time, was it reasonable to declare Shepard flight ready/capable in the spring of 1969 and allow him to command Apollo 14 ? If you are a doc, and I have no reason to assume you are not, why do you say yes or no to this question ? I will give you my reason(s) in great detail if you so desire.

As regards Borman, given the situation with respect to Borman's Apollo 8 Mission nausea/vomiting and diarrheal illness in cislunar space, was his case generally handled "appropriately" taking into account all of the special circumstances ? Was it reasonable for him to be diagnosed with viral gastroenteritis ? Is his claim as it appears in the January 17 1969 LIFE Magazine article that he took Seconal a second time to see if this would not make himself ill again and so prove seconal was responsible for his illness reasonable ? Was it a reasonable thing for Samuel Phillips to write in the May 1969 National Geographic that the Apollo 8 crew could not possibly have had INFLUENZA as they were vaccinated ? Given the events regarding Borman's illness during the Apollo 8 Mission, was it reasonable to make no changes as regards the way Apollo astroanuts were to defecate in the CM and LM ?

You can be as detailed or non detailed as you care to be for openers. I will respond roughly in kind. i assume you have familiarity with both of these problems generally; Meniere's Disease and presumed infectious diarrhea.
edit on 4-5-2012 by decisively because: changed have to had

edit on 4-5-2012 by decisively because: spelling

edit on 4-5-2012 by decisively because: spelling




posted on May, 4 2012 @ 06:46 AM
link   

Originally posted by decisively
reply to post by choos
 


My role as a physician in the community is relevant to be sure. That said, the truth of my claims have nothing to do with said role. I could be a zoo keeper and these FACTS as regards Shepard's Meniere's "cure" and Borman's fraudulent illness would be TRUE nevertheless.

Find a doc friend and bring them on board choos. It would be quite and experience for you. Help you to really see Apollo well.


i have a paramedic friend does that count? but anyway the guy is too busy to be wasting time on conspiracy theories.

also do you do star sighting as a hobby?

anyway, the medical doctors cleared shepard before flight, there was no reason for them to be concerned (you would think they would be concern if you put someone not fit to fly in command of a multi-million dollar vehicle and two human lives at risk)

so who would you trust, the medical doctors who were there and made the decisions, who would have a lot to lose if they were wrong. or a random person behind a computer reading biographies?



posted on May, 4 2012 @ 06:48 AM
link   
reply to post by decisively
 



Won't go there with you. Would be very happy, actually most elated, to discuss the Shepard case specifically, the Borman case specifically and so forth. Will discuss genuine Apollo stuff. Other "hypotheticals" are not relevant and will not waste my time. Won't be distracted by other bull. That said, as regards the specifics of the Shepard and Borman cases, happy to go into as much detail as anyone likes.


Excellent. For the benefit of those who are not as medically savvy as yourself, could you please explain the concept of "differential diagnosis" and how it can be applied specifically to the separate cases of Shephard and Borman?



posted on May, 4 2012 @ 07:25 AM
link   
reply to post by decisively
 


You don't seem to have any proof.

All you seem to do is harp on an ear condition.

Show us actual proof that we did not sent humans to the surface of the Moon. Not speculation.



posted on May, 4 2012 @ 07:45 AM
link   
reply to post by choos
 


I think that is fine choos,

If that is where you are with it, if you believe it was Berry's prerogative to say, "OK Alan, go for it?" I won't keep going back and forth with you on it. I believe that view is way off, and that is where I am at with it. No harm done and best to you.



posted on May, 4 2012 @ 08:06 AM
link   

Originally posted by fixer1967
My watch has more computing power than the Apoll did...


No it doesn't. Do some research on the specs of the Apollo Guidance System before posting nonsense.



posted on May, 4 2012 @ 08:08 AM
link   
reply to post by decisively
 


it had been 2 years and it didnt redevelope, or do you believe that once you get Meniere's Disease you are forever disabled because of it? no matter if you do not show signs of it anymore?

i just dont get your point of view. he had it, had surgery for it, hasnt redeveloped, no symptons for 2 years. therefore not fit to fly.



posted on May, 4 2012 @ 08:12 AM
link   

Originally posted by decisively
Well, first of all, the thread is one which points out that it is obvious, something not in need of proof per se, that the Apollo missions were fraudulent.


Wrong, proof IS needed. You cannot expect everyone to buy your theory with the explanation "it was obvious" or that "no proof is needed".

Proof is ALWAYS needed (and I mean REAL proof, not OPINION)

Thanks,

Dorian Soran



posted on May, 4 2012 @ 08:15 AM
link   
reply to post by DJW001
 



Fair enough, the question as posed is not unreasonable.

A "differential" is a list of sorts, a list of possible causes of a medical problem. So in Alan Shepard's case, this is not an issue, formulating the list. We HAVE the diagnosis of Meniere's Disease. We are going to assume the NASA docs are correct. In Shepard's case our question is; "Given the diagnosis of Meniere's disease, and given the surgery, the anticipated associated clinical outcome as understood at the time, was Dr. Berry's decision reasonable ? Was it correct even ?"

Frank's Borman's situation is a different one, and indeed, the idea of a "differential" or list of possible causes does apply, VERY MUCH SO. We need not review the circumstances in detail, I believe most are familiar with the salient details in the case. Considerations, without at this point assigning any kind of graded likelihood of one diagnosis being favored over another, would include but would not be limited to; garden variety food poisoning, common viral gastroenteritis, bacterial enteritis(Shigella, Camplobacter, Salmonella), toxin mediated C.Dif. enteritis, medication effect/intollerance(Seconal), medication allergy(Seconal), "space sickness", INFLUENZA, other allergy(something new in the CM environment and not previously contacted), anxiety attack.

Rather than go nuts with our differential, our "list of possibles", I'll leave it at that for now. Note the list, or "differential", contains Borman's ultimate diagnosis(viral gastroenteritis), Borman's self diagnosis(Seconal, either intollerance or genuine allergy), INFLUENZA as mentioned in news reports and Phillips National Geographic article of May 1969, and a few other common considerations that any intern would come up with(bacterial based infectious enteritis, C. Dif enteritis(a bacterial problem with special considerations), food poisoning, anxiety attack). Space sickness was not something about which anyone had much, if any real familiarity with. Nevertheless, it was acknowledged in some sense as a genuine threat despite the lack of clinical experience with it on the part of both astronauts and doctors.

So I shall leave it to your side now to say more about Alan Shepard, yes or no to flying to the moon, and why yes or no. And then you can tell us if you would add anything to my differential for Frank Borman, and more importantly, say why you would favor one diagnosis in the list over another, given your understanding of the problem as it is generally related.



posted on May, 4 2012 @ 08:24 AM
link   
reply to post by DorianSoran
 


Your comment is not entirely unreasonable on some very odd level. That level being that one can make an argument in favor of doing any crazy thing. However, such a perspective sidesteps my main and really only point here which can be restated to emphasize the absurdity here; if you polled every person reading this thread, not a one would intentionally take Seconal to give himself/herself diarrhea. (If you would, tell us why you would. The rest of us do not believe you would do that to yourself as it makes no sense to hurt oneself and threaten the lives of your friends.)



posted on May, 4 2012 @ 06:24 PM
link   
reply to post by decisively
 



A "differential" is a list of sorts, a list of possible causes of a medical problem. So in Alan Shepard's case, this is not an issue, formulating the list. We HAVE the diagnosis of Meniere's Disease. We are going to assume the NASA docs are correct. In Shepard's case our question is; "Given the diagnosis of Meniere's disease, and given the surgery, the anticipated associated clinical outcome as understood at the time, was Dr. Berry's decision reasonable ? Was it correct even ?"


Wrong. You watch too much TV. A differential diagnosis is the process of eliminating diseases with similar symptoms based on the presence or absence of other symptoms which differentiate between them. Not only are we not privy to either the severity or etiology of the symptoms, we may not even be aware of the full list of presenting symptoms. There is no way we can confirm or refute the flight surgeon's diagnosis. The presenting symptoms may be indicative of something else; we simply have to trust the published reports. If we are to trust the reports surrounding Shephard's removal from active flight status, I see no reason not to trust the reports around his requalification. It is your argument that is irrational and self-contradictory. (Yes, I am hinting that NASA may be telling a "little white lie," but not necessarily. In an earlier post, I suggested symptoms that might allow you to surmise a possible etiology that can be readily treated over the span of five years. Shephard was not without influence.)

As for the Borman case, can you think of a reason why performing a differential diagnosis in a spacecraft is both difficult and imperative? You found Borman's willingness to take a second, smaller, dose of Seconal "irrational." Taking all the circumstances into account, can you see why it was the only rational course to take?



posted on May, 4 2012 @ 09:23 PM
link   
reply to post by DJW001
 



There is no way we can confirm or refute the flight surgeon's diagnosis.


Do you have any names of the flight surgeons for Frank Bowman, Alan Shepard and Michael Collins?
Are they the same person?

Edit to add: Does Deke Slayton have the final astronaut approval? Collins had fused vertebrae and had to recover from spinal fusion surgery in less than 12 months - NASA approved him for the mission to experience 4g on launch and up to 7g on re-entry.

What if the Saturn starts to pogo and his vertebrae become unfused?
edit on 5/4/2012 by SayonaraJupiter because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 4 2012 @ 10:27 PM
link   

Originally posted by SayonaraJupiter
reply to post by DJW001
 



There is no way we can confirm or refute the flight surgeon's diagnosis.


Do you have any names of the flight surgeons for Frank Bowman, Alan Shepard and Michael Collins?
Are they the same person?

Edit to add: Does Deke Slayton have the final astronaut approval? Collins had fused vertebrae and had to recover from spinal fusion surgery in less than 12 months - NASA approved him for the mission to experience 4g on launch and up to 7g on re-entry.

What if the Saturn starts to pogo and his vertebrae become unfused?
edit on 5/4/2012 by SayonaraJupiter because: (no reason given)


well its a good thing a full recovery from a fused vertebrae surgery is only a few months than isnt it??



posted on May, 5 2012 @ 12:03 AM
link   
reply to post by DJW001
 


Nice try.........well, not really.......

And, would you be so kind as to let us know which diagnoses you would favor and why as regards the Borman illness....Was viral gastroenteritis a reasonable diagnosis ? Why did Dr. Berry conclude that Borman had viral gastroenteritis and despite that, the astronaut himself thought it was the Seconal responsible for his illness ? Why did Borman "return to earth" and write that it was the Seconal, while when he himself was in cislunar space, he said he thought he had a 24 hour flu bug ? Why did Berry and Phillips and the rest of the NASA clowns say the Apollo 8 astronauts could not possibly have had INFLUENZA, the vaccine they received having conferred guaranteed immunity.

And one more little point, I just reread William House's own account of the Alan Shepard/Meniere's disease affair in House's own book, THE STRUGGLES OF A MEDICAL INNOVATOR, published 2011. House stated in the book that he had effected a "surgical cure" for the good astronaut Alan Shepard. He also stated that in addition to curing the vertigo problem, the surgery cured Alan Shepard's Meniere's associated hearing loss. Shepard had a 40dB loss at baseline before the surgery and his hearing was restored to normal after the surgery. Matter of fact, Berry had House speak with Shepard while the astronaut was allegedly in cislunar space. And Shepard made a point of informing House he was listening with his Meniere's ear from 230,000 miles away.

Everyone in the medical community that deals with these problems knows that then(1960s) as now(2012) shunt surgeries did not, do not, cannot cure Meniere's associated hearing loss. The surgery impacts the vertigo problem, and that even is a perhaps. As regards the hearing loss, NO NO NO. And that is not, nor has it ever been in the world of modern medicine, a point in any kind of dispute. A damaged hearing nerve cannot be fixed with a shunt surgery, and so we see this story now clearly as the lie it is.

Presumably House was gamed in some way. I doubt if he was actively complicitous. Probably, William House was informed by Berry that the astronaut's hearing had returned to normal and everything was hunky dory, and House being a bit star struck went along.

One thing we know for sure as regards Meniere's Disease, surgery doesn't fix a broken vestibulocochlear(hearing and balance) nerve. Perhaps you and your buddies would care to generate a differential for us all and list the disease processes associated with transient loss of hearing amenable to treatment by way of shunt surgery. Should be enlightening. I will start the thing off; APOLLO WAS FRAUDULENT. Your turn......

The tale of Alan Shepard, and Charles Berry , and William House, has indeed culminated in a ending beyond sad. These guys thought nothing of scamming anybody, ANYBODY. I honestly do not know what to say. At first I almost did not believe it, and then, well, when you step back, it's just more of the same, the same abject contempt they have shown for us all, all along.

The problem with Apollo now is that when it does really come out, the scam's reality, full fledged and ornery, the American government may never regain any semblance of credibility. Beyond sad, pathetic....




edit on 5-5-2012 by decisively because: added commas, added pathetic



posted on May, 5 2012 @ 02:42 AM
link   
reply to post by decisively
 


from what i read, borman took the big red pill of seconal. whereas everyone else took the smaller one. im no doctor so would that make a difference?



posted on May, 5 2012 @ 03:04 AM
link   
reply to post by choos
 


That's funny, Never heard that.

As I understand the "story", Borman had trouble sleeping the first night out and so took Seconal. Upon awakening, he felt ill. That first night, the others did not take sleeping pills. This is how the "story" is told.



posted on May, 5 2012 @ 03:16 AM
link   
reply to post by decisively
 



088:53:27 Borman (onboard): You know what I think made me sick that night?

088:53:29 Anders (onboard): What?

088:53:30 Borman (onboard): That damned pill I took.

088:53:32 Anders (onboard): What pill did you take?

088:53:34 Borman (onboard): Seconal - one of the big ones

088:53:36 Anders (onboard): Oh, is that right?

088:53:36 Borman (onboard): I didn't know you had small ones. I'd have taken one of those.

history.nasa.gov...

mind you this conversation happened on day 4.



posted on May, 5 2012 @ 03:27 AM
link   
reply to post by choos
 


I was referencing the night one pill ingestion, not day four. He took a pill the first nigh out and allegedly got sick.
edit on 5-5-2012 by decisively because: spelling, added "allegedly"



posted on May, 5 2012 @ 04:49 AM
link   
reply to post by decisively
 


he was reffering to the pill he took on day one, he only took 2 pills, the big one the first time. and than the second time was a smaller one. which happened on the last day i think day 5 or 6.



posted on May, 5 2012 @ 11:38 AM
link   

Originally posted by choos
well its a good thing a full recovery from a fused vertebrae surgery is only a few months than isnt it??


Is it only a few months? Wiki indicates 6-12 months. Collins must be 100% fully recovered by the end of 1968 (when he was selected for Apollo 11 while Apollo 8 was still in space). That seems to be a miraculous recovery because it is twice as fast as normal.

Collins surgery middle of July 1968. The Apollo Saturn launch experienced 4 G's on July 1969.


In most cases, the fusion is augmented by a process called fixation, meaning the placement of metallic screws (pedicle screws often made from titanium), rods or plates, or cages to stabilize the vertebra to facilitate bone fusion. The fusion process typically takes 6–12 months after surgery. During this time external bracing (orthotics) may be required. External factors such as smoking, osteoporosis, certain medications, and heavy activity can prolong or even prevent the fusion process. If fusion does not occur, patients may require reoperation. Source en.wikipedia.org...



new topics

top topics



 
10
<< 1  2  3    5  6  7 >>

log in

join