The Lord's Prayer.

I think the way most of us were taught, we tend to think that Jesus came up with this on the spot, spur of the moment, but I don't think so. I think a great deal of thought went into it.

My own analysis doesn't do it justice of course, but for some reason this surfaced for me today, and as I was running through it again, by memory (as with most of us), I was struck by it's compactness and the utter simplicty and perfection enfolded within it, like layers of an onion, wrapping around and around its core teaching. Jesus even told us that this, instead of long speeches and showey affairs is how we are to pray, meaning with utter brevity, and precision-directness.

For the following, I'll give a line (in bold italics) and then offer my own impressions and interpretations of what it means for evaluation, and for fun and enjoyment, because that's what contemplating God's word from the lips of Christ evokes for me, that upwelling of excitement at the prospect of a mutually shared testimony, and what better place for it to arise than from the Lord's Prayer itself.

Our father, who art in heaven

By "our" Jesus is here inviting us, immediately, into a relationship of mutuality with an all-inclusive "father" which is implicate in the use of and assumption of the father being "our" father (both his and ours included). By "father" Jesus here is referring to something much much more than a mere "bearded man in the sky" (and as a bearded man he was "grounded" anyway!), but something infinitely more substantial than a traditional family framework of father to children. By saying "our father who art in heaven" he is making that distinction. This is not an earthly father, but a heavenly one, and by heaven, he is referring to a higher domain and order of existence, not some king or creature say on a distant world, but more along the lines of father as center and source and as a first/last cause AND as the living spirit of the universe, the spirit of truth and life, which remains the same from age to age.

Hallowed be thy name

This is the same as saying sacred be thy name, and by not naming the name, it demonstrates that the same one most high God (of the very highest) goes by many names in many domains, unto God as a first father of creation (apex), so by saying this, the all-inclusive sharing of a mutual father is extended to include anyone who calls on God by ANY name, and since OUR is already established, this all-inclusive one must also be the same one shared by Jesus himself as son of God.

Thy kingdom come

Now that it has been established who we are addressing, God is also invited immediately to participate in a co-creative sharing with man of his eternal, heavenly kingdom, such that..

Thy will be done

Thy will, not self will, not as man would have it, but as God would will it to be. This is a statement of acceptance of God's will, and repudiation of the selfish will of man, a bracketing of sorts requesting that only the very best of the best be our highest aim, when bridging the gap between what is, or the world as we find it, and what ought to be, or the world as God would have it be, through us, his children. This does not imply absolute submission to a higher authority, but a shared invitation, that we might consider, and ask for God's guidance. It's not about the subjugation of the human will, but the harnessing of it, so that God's will might become our own innermost heart's desire.

On earth as it is in heaven

This is actually the famous alchemical, hermeneutical statement - "as above, so below."

It spells out the precise method by which the will of God will become manifest, from the unmanifest, as a reflection, by the higher order, to the lower, from the unmanifest perfection to manifest reality, earth here being synonymous with manifestation or that which is caused to occur when the higher will orders the lower (by permission and invitation).



that's a start anyway - will come back and post some more and finish off this analysis, but can you begin to see the simplicity here on the far side of complexity? It's not only brief and concise but it contains a whole serious of self referential nested hierarchies all the way along. Incredible!

Best Regards,

NAM

I love the Lords Prayer,

For some reason the Lords Prayer and Psalm 23 always run through my head concurrently !

Lords Prayer from Matthew 6:

Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread.

And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

and the Lords Prayer from Luke 11:
And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

Give us day by day our daily bread.

And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Psalm 23

The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.



S&F for thread,

Amen

reply to post by Iason321

Psalm 23 is also my favorite, and was one that I was drawn to and which protected me during a very difficult time (we all go through a "dark night of the soul" at some point or another).

It too is a good one.

After finishing the analysis I'm offering, I would like to ask for people's views on what I've offered along with their own thoughts and impressions about it, thanks in advance for contributing to this thread. Although it goes without saying, I do hope everyone can keep it civil without going on an anti-Christian tirade! That too would be nice!

Just wanted to say I was reading
and I am enjoying your analysis

reply to post by NewAgeMan


My personal opinion and I realize it's splitting hairs, but that's not really the "Lord's Prayer". I think it should be called the "Disciple's Prayer" The real "Lord's Prayer" was the one He prayed in the garden before His crucifixion. That was His intimate personal prayer to His Father.

Originally posted by Iason321
Psalm 23

The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.



S&F for thread,

Amen

beautiful...

s&f for the thread also, peace

Give us this day our daily bread

You could add "please" to the beginning of this, but it would be superflous, and Jesus is of course presuming that we get what we ask for, so it's not like we're being demanding, just asking.

Give us THIS DAY our daily bread. In Jesus' metaphysics or worldview, he seemed to understand very clearly that there's no time like the present and that today is all we have, since the past is past, and the future as yet unknown - "therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for today has enough worries (or concerns) in and of itself" (I may paraphrase a bit to update the language for modern times).

"our daily bread" - here again, the day is emphasized, the implication being that the bread is also fresh, made daily (I am reminded here of the manna in the desert, which was only good for a day).

BREAD - by bread Jesus is, I believe, referring to a number of things, covering the physical (bread as food), to the spiritual, even to the very divine energy that sustains us in our present body/life and which animates the human being and enlivens us.

He is here saying, we trust in your divine providence - "look at the birds of the air, they neither labor nor spin yet God FEEDS them! So why worry, asking "what shall we eat, or what shall we wear?"

Give us for today what we need for today - but at the same time it's about more than simply achieving a certain level on Maslow's hierarchy of needs - "man cannot live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God" (source of divine wisdom).

It is bread as SUBSTANCE, and sustenance, at ALL levels.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

My personal opinion and I realize it's splitting hairs, but that's not really the "Lord's Prayer". I think it should be called the "Disciple's Prayer" The real "Lord's Prayer" was the one He prayed in the garden before His crucifixion. That was His intimate personal prayer to His Father.

to OUR father. Sorry, and I don't mean to split hairs either, but I'm not so big on the exclusive particularization of Jesus, and I don't think that was ever his real intention (to be different from everyone on a personally exclusive basis), because his spirit is the same one that he shares with us, that was shared with him by the father, without measure. Jesus Christ to me is the all-INclusive Christ, never exclusive.

And for the record, I do know the prayer you refer to, in John, and you're right that it was very personal, so personal in fact that you wonder how it was who recorded for posterity since everyone was sleeping at the time. Nevertheless that is also a beautiful and magnificent prayer, about our mutual glorification, with him.

And of course by Lord's Prayer I mean our common prayer in terms of how he taught us to pray, with him.

Coincidentially I had just finished reading a thread titled Ascending to the 4th dimension 2012. There is a video posted by Starchild23 that had a clip stating the Lords Prayer having correlations between the Chakra energy centers.

The relevant part starts around the 52:38 mark.



Interesting findings all around!

reply to post by itsallmaya

Thanks for posting that, it makes a lot of sense however "heretical" the conclusions are that must be drawn when examining Jesus and his life, character, teachings and possible drivers and motivations, critically (with critical thinking intact).

Forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us.


Now this one's VERY interesting, and one I will need to spend some time reflecting on more deeply before offering my "analysis" or interpretation and impressions. Why? Because of the word AS.

This statement is about the very core and heart of Christian thought and teaching (forgiveness) and yet here it is cast in a rather Buddhist light. In another scripture, we have him saying the same thing basically, when he says that unless and until we forgive we cannot be forgiven. In my view, traditional Christian thought skims right over the implications of these statements. What I can say for now is that it appears to involve a circular relationship between the human being first in his relationship to God and then in relation to his fellow man, but with what can only be described as an equal sign inserted in between the two, which is unusual, or at least unusual according to the traditional teachings and doctrine of what I sometimes like to call "Churchianity".


more to follow tomorrow...

God Bless,

NAM aka Bob

Forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us.


You know, that could either be first a very frightening, and then a very humorous proposition, the more I come to think of it. It's absurd, glroiously, rationally absurd, wonderful, ridiculous, and effective, above all, it's effective and practical. Instantaneously, like a detonation of forgiveness, this goes right across the board, that Jesus he doesn't mess around!

That's all I've got on that for now. It's crazy, and perfectly sane, both. Love it!

I'll come back tomorrow and try to fill you in on the joke, but I'm not sure if that's possible, ya either get it or you don't.

Forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us.

YES! I've got it!

Here Jesus is offering us the very possibility of liberation, or, a pair of mental Chinese handcuffs, which after tightening to one degree or another are certain to eventually unhinge (or whatever Chinese handcuffs do) and "pop open" to our own dismay, if not hilarity. Brilliant! Way to go Jesus.

I'd have to say that the whole prayer turns on this statement/request right here, and it always begins from above, to the below, that's already established that this is a type of downward causation by invitation/request, from "heaven" to "earth" or from the uncaused cause to the unmanifested made manifest.

But that it contains inbedded within it, the possibility of a smile that raises the roof, and a reflected light of forgivness radiating outwardly to our fellow man, is highly formative and transformative, as well as highly liberating for the forgiver, who can then set others free in the same forgiveness, but it's the same in this prayer, the forgiveness has no hierarchy, and thus is the very fulcrum on which the prayer leverages into place a veritable MONOLITH of forgiveness, as tall as heaven, right from here on earth, through us.

So it's also the opportunity of all time being presented here, the opportunity to be a force of God's mercy and love in the world, first to us AND EQUALLY (not then or as a result of) to our fellow man, sharing as we do the same unconditioned gournd of being (Buddhist thought).

And we only have to forgive those who've tresspassed against US, then again, that could be a lot of different people and groups of people. But let's just bask in the glow of this realization before trying to tackle, yet again, all the worst evils of the world. Within the context that it was being offered however, it meant the people you interact with and come in contact with, in our case, unfortunately, it will have to include Dick Cheney!

Great thread Newageman.

"Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"

God's will is done in heaven. In heaven, there is no will but God's. I think heaven on Earth is as simple as allowing the freedom of expression of God through creation and therefore allowing the freedom of expression of creation. Its a matter of being open to what is to come and accepting what is. Then the God behind the scenes of creation will shine through.

reply to post by smithjustinb


Very well said!

Beautiful!

"Forgive us our tresspasses AS we forgive those who tresspass against us."


And so, implicit in this mutual forgiveness, from above (starting from God ie: in a downward causation) - resides the possibility (if not the probability), of oneness with God, and through God as initiator equally so with our fellow man, including ourselves. In other words that it is, and can be only through forgiveness, that man is reconciled with God, who's condition or eternal state already IS forgiveness, and that's where the humor starts to kick in, when we recognize, in the oneness and liberation of true forgiveness, which is love - that we ourselves were already forgiven, the only "condition" being, that we must therefore also forgive as we are already forgiven (or how can we, if we are to be at one-ment with God BE forgiven and thus included in God?)! To really understand this (and get the Chinese handcuffs off) I think, is to laugh out loud at the reasonableness of it, however unreasonably reasonable it may be!

This then maks a very powerful, almost metaphysical proclamation, regarding the true nature of oneness and reconciliation with God as the all-in-all, who's expression, here, resides precisely in our OWN capacity to also forgive, placing the onus on us, to both ask for and extend (by infinite proportion) God's mercy to humanity, both individually and personally, and as a whole, since we're dealing here with the very "relativity of human being".

But how hard will it really BE, to carry this out and go through with it, when OUR OWN forgiveness has already been assured?!

And therefore it comes to us, when we ask, not without a heartfelt gratitude, and the newly (freshly) restored sense of humor, and JOY!

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I think that last post was just the best and most important thing I've ever written here on ATS, and no I'm not backslapping my own back, just highlighting it. You really gotta get this, it's pretty funny and illuminating both at the same time, to understand the full breadth and depth of its implications, when taken seriously, and viewed critically.

And lead us not into tempation, but deliver us from evil.


This was Jesus' SEAL on the prayer (the rest, although also magnificent, was added later).

It describes the leading of the spirit, and an arrow of leadership in the direction of the good and away from evil, like a demarcation threshold of the coming of God's kingdom to earth or into manifestation.

It appears to imply the possibility that the spirit of God could lead someone into tempation, and that is precisely what happened in Jesus' case, to test him. He understood of course that if everyone was led into temptation in this way, they (we) would not pass the same test, and so here he is making a request on OUR behalf, that we not suffer the same ordeal. BUT, is then added as the alternative pathway out of evil and into the goodness of God, who Jesus understood, in himself and in his intimate relationship with God, and Great Work, to be all-good and without compromise. Jesus we must remember was "delivered into evil" on not one but two occasions, although innocent and all-good himself, first in the desert, and then the cross.

He is therefore here seen making an appeal directly to God, and inviting us to do the same, with him, that we be spared a "dark night of the soul" and IMMEDIATELY delivered from the snare and the trap of evil, without delay, and thereafter headed in the right direction. It is an arrow circling back around the whole prayer, really, as a type of protection from the possibility of future separation from God, who, being all-good, is undivided in his goodness.

Basically he's telling God what to do, saying something like "don't let happen to them what has and will happen to me" recognizing that in the completion of his Great Work, that such a thing is no longer neccessary.

It's a kind gesture then, and a seal, not a warning sign, not a should and shouldn't about our conduct, no again this is a final request that God's guidance encircles our life, like a forward rolling ball of increasing integrity and wholeness, passing, in the unfolding present moment, the demarction threshold after which the threat will have already passed.

And the rest

For thine is the kingdom
the power, and the glory
forever and ever, amen.

Although very nice and beautiful, isn't really needed, because God is already aware of who and what he is, and if we try to remind ourselves here, of God as other or separate in his magesty, then the whole point of the prayer is kind of lost. Althogh the word "thine" implies a type of inclusion, most everyone in this context would interpret it exclusively as "you".

It is therefore unneccessary, and possibly at odds with the intent of Jesus' prayer design, so I'm going to leave it and set it aside or the purpose of this thread.

That's it that's all!

God Bless,

NAM

One other interesting feature about this prayer is it's voice. We are here, in saying or speaking this prayer by Jesus own invitation, speaking it with him, but he is also speaking it from the perspective of himself, not just on our behalf, but directly to the God of his own understanding and relationship! It draws us into speaking WITH Jesus and thus with his same voice, now both individually and together, as one, in unison, that too is a brilliant application of the prayer. Furthermore, the "voice" of the prayer, is speaking on our own behalf, which we immdiately assume, perhaps forgetting in our narcissism, that it could be speaking at other levels, is also speaking on behalf of humanity as a whole - "our" being here the operative word, and the initiating word of the prayer itself!

It is a very human prayer.

It recognizes our foibles and our shortcomings, but offers us, very directly and immediately, the opportunity to participate in the invitation of all ages, an inviting we are here in this prayer both requesting, AND recieving, since it's a prayer told by none other than Jesus himself!

It's all the more powerful when we consider that the turning point and emphasis on forgiveness is told from the POV of the one who has no need of it, thus lightening the load for all who come into it's initiation. It is told from the POV, at it's apex, of the very rock of all ages, and on behalf of the unmoved mover, towards us, because on the lips of Jesus, in sharing this prayer with us, there was no deciept!

The Lord's Prayer is therefore a triumph, in psychological and spiritual and metaphysical/philosophical transformation and growth for the human being, at all levels, from the most human to the highest height, of the divine.

Understood, the Lord's Prayer is a homecoming for us, each and every one of us, and ALL of us!

That Jesus he doesn't mess around when he sits down to design the perfect prayer!


Love and Blessings one and all,

NAM

aka Bob