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The Catholic Church brings back indulgences, can you buy your way to heaven w/ the root of all evil?

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posted on Apr, 30 2012 @ 12:48 PM
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Originally posted by Danbones

.Alleged abuses in selling and granting indulgences[4] were a major point of contention when Martin Luther initiated the Protestant Reformation (1517).

Martin Luther being able to boink an ex-nun ... and tell men rape of the household staff was okay - 'if the wife is unwilling then take the maid' (yes, that's a Martin Luther Quote) ... his sex drive was a major point in his 'reformation'.


Again ... the Catholic Catechism is very clear.
The Catholic Answers authentic Catholic doctrine website is very clear.
The anti-Catholic Financial Times article is just something that appeals to anti-Catholics
and those who dont' take the time to actually read up on what the Church believes -
FROM THE CHURCH ITSELF.


THIS THREAD BELONGS IN OFF TOPIC RELIGION.



edit on 4/30/2012 by FlyersFan because: typo




posted on Apr, 30 2012 @ 12:49 PM
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Matthew 19:22-24


22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”



posted on Apr, 30 2012 @ 12:51 PM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


You really want to character assassinate Martin Luther...

I can start poking through all the popes if you like, all the A-moral crazy behavior popes have done through out Catholic history, behavior that doesn't match someone who is supposed to be Infallible by catholic beliefs.

The largest problem I have with Catholic Doctrine is the adherence to "Traditions" as Opposed to Bible based beliefs, Purgatory isn';t even in the bible in the first place, its a control mechanism the church uses.

as if hell wasn't enough.

AS for the sex drive comment the Bible is pretty clear the Pastor or Preacher of a church should be

1 Tim 3:2




A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;


See that not Martins sex drive, he must of
read the BIBLE...
edit on 30-4-2012 by benrl because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 30 2012 @ 12:53 PM
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God is the only one who can forgive me of my sins.
Seems to me like the Pope is fishing for funds.



posted on Apr, 30 2012 @ 12:58 PM
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1423 Europeans use xylography (art of engraving on wood, block printing) to produce books.
1430 Gutenberg moved from his native town of Mainz to Strasburg
1436 Gutenberg begins work on his printing press.
1437 Gutenberg was sued for "breach of promise of marriage" by a young lady of Strasburg
1440 Gutenberg completed his wooden press which used movable metal type.
1440 Laurens Janszoon Koster (Coster) is credited, by some, with inventing movable metal type
1444 Gutenberg returns to Mainz and sets up a printing shop
1446 Gutenberg prints the "Poem of the Last Judgment"
1448 Gutenberg prints the "Calendar for 1448"
1450 Gutenberg' formed a partnership with the wealthy Johann Fust
1450 Gutenberg begins work on a Bible, the first is 40 lines per page.
1452 Gutenberg begins printing the 42-line Bible in two volumes.
1454 Gutenberg prints indulgences (notes sold to Christians by the Pope, pardoning their sins)
1455 First block-printed Bible, the Biblia Pauperum, published in Germany.
1455 Gutenberg completed work on what is estimated to be 200 copies of the Bible
1455 Gutenberg was effectively bankrupt. Investor Johann Faust gains control of print business
1457 First known color printing, a Psalter (a collection of Psalms for devotional use) by Faust.
1460 Gutenberg reestablished himself in the printing business with the aid of Conrad Humery
1461 Albrecht Pfister printed the first illustrated book Edelstein which featured a number of woodcuts.
1465 Gutenberg is appointed to the court of Archbishop Adolf of Nassau

www.ideafinder.com...

note the indulgenses were printed before a bible was actually completed...which is not commonly expressed re the history ogf the printing press..the story being it put a lot of monks out of work due to the automation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I notice here that there are two terms which might be confusing:
absolvence and indulgence
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Primer on Indulgences
Those who claim that indulgences are no longer part of Church teaching have the admirable desire to distance themselves from abuses that occurred around the time of the Protestant Reformation. They also want to remove stumbling blocks that prevent non-Catholics from taking a positive view of the Church. As admirable as these motives are, the claim that indulgences are not part of Church teaching today is false.

This is proved by the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which states, "An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishment due for their sins." The Church does this not just to aid Christians, "but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity" (CCC 1478).

Indulgences are part of the Church’s infallible teaching. This means that no Catholic is at liberty to disbelieve in them. The Council of Trent stated that it "condemns with anathema those who say that indulgences are useless or that the Church does not have the power to grant them"(Trent, session 25, Decree on Indulgences). Trent’s anathema places indulgences in the realm of infallibly defined teaching.

www.catholic.com...



posted on Apr, 30 2012 @ 12:58 PM
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Originally posted by benrl
You really want to character assassinate Martin Luther...

It's a fact. Learn to deal with the truth. The guy was a perv.

I can start poking through all the popes if you like,

Have at it. I'll help you out. Start with the Medici popes ....

all the A-moral crazy behavior popes have done through out Catholic history, behavior that doesn't match someone who is supposed to be Infallible by catholic beliefs.

Here's another one who doesn't know what the Catholic church teaches but proceeds to slam the church anyways. Read up .... 'Papal Infallibility' has NOTHING to do witha popes personal behavior. Popes to go confession just like all the other practicing Catholics. They sin. They make errors. Some are very bad. Some are very good. Just like everyone else.

Papal Infallibility is supposed to be about DOCTRINE. When making doctrinal pronouncements from the Chair of Peter (Ex-Cathreda), then ... supposedly ... the pope will not be able to make an error because of what Christ said in scripture .. Matthew 16:18 ... to Peter who was the first pope ... 'You are Peter, the Rock, and upon this rock I shall build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Whatever you hold bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and what ever you let lose on earth will be let lose in heaven" ....

Catholic Answers - Papal Infallibility
Catechism of the Catholic Church

If you are going to slam the Catholic church ... at least get it right what they believe.
Slamming them for things they don't believe is kinda silly.



posted on Apr, 30 2012 @ 01:03 PM
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Originally posted by benrl
The largest problem I have with Catholic Doctrine is the adherence to "Traditions" as Opposed to Bible based beliefs,

The bible itself says to hold onto sacred traditions.
So doing so is indeed a bible based belief.
Catholic Answers - Scripture and Tradition


Purgatory isn';t even in the bible in the first place,

... according to YOUR interpretation. Catholics have a different interpretation.
Catholic Answers - Purgatory


Scripture can be interpreted in just about any way.
Some interpret it one way .. others another.
And then the interpreters all scream at each other "I'm right and you are wrong'.

This thread will just become an anti-Catholic bible spitting contest.
It belongs in the off topic religion forum.

The article in the Opening Post has already been shown to be bunk.

edit on 4/30/2012 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 30 2012 @ 01:04 PM
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just a side note the differences between Martin luthers protantism and the catholic church led to religious wars that were very harsh and destructive...

This is a large reason why I think the subject is important



posted on Apr, 30 2012 @ 01:04 PM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


Catholic religion has merged Pagan beliefs since Constantine.

They cling to the traditions of MEN not the bible, You don't see the problem with Poking at Martin Luther, a flawed man who read the bible and saw what was wrong with the church.

you know kinda the whole

1st cor 1:27



"But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong."


at the time the Catholic Church was the strong Martin was the weak, your character Assassinations prove a weak argument.

Purgatory doesn't exist in the bible, no verse supports it, and the ones catholics sight are weak when taken in context.



posted on Apr, 30 2012 @ 01:06 PM
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Originally posted by GmoS719
God is the only one who can forgive me of my sins.
Seems to me like the Pope is fishing for funds.

You didn't read the opening article and you didn't read the thread, did you?
As I posted .. the Church says that God forgives sins.
As I posted .. money is not involved.



posted on Apr, 30 2012 @ 01:08 PM
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reply to post by benrl
 

You didn't read anything that I posted. Not a single thing. Not a single link. Thank you for proving my point earlier .. this thread will turn into nothing more than a spitting contest. People don't want to be educated, they just want to spout their version of correct.



posted on Apr, 30 2012 @ 01:08 PM
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Originally posted by Danbones
reply to post by FortAnthem
 

I would hope as I said up thread that the article in the Op is a starting point for the thread.
but a reference trumps no reference



I'm glad you made this thread in the interests of educating yourself. As far as indulgences being done away with in 1563, the Council of Trent seems to disagree:


The Council of Trent (Sess, XXV, 3-4, Dec., 1563) declared: "Since the power of granting indulgences has been given to the Church by Christ, and since the Church from the earliest times has made use of this Divinely given power, the holy synod teaches and ordains that the use of indulgences, as most salutary to Christians and as approved by the authority of the councils, shall be retained in the Church; and it further pronounces anathema against those who either declare that indulgences are useless or deny that the Church has the power to grant them (Enchridion, 989). It is therefore of faith (de fide)

•that the Church has received from Christ the power to grant indulgences, and
•that the use of indulgences is salutary for the faithful.


They did take action to curb abuses of the system like the outlawing of traders in indulgences and charging fees or other types of financial transactions in association with the granting of indulgences.


The Council of Trent in its decree "On Indulgences" (Sess. XXV) declares: "In granting indulgences the Council desires that moderation be observed in accordance with the ancient approved custom of the Church, lest through excessive ease ecclesiastical discipline be weakened; and further, seeking to correct the abuses that have crept in . . . it decrees that all criminal gain therewith connected shall be entirely done away with as a source of grievous abuse among the Christian people; and as to other disorders arising from superstition, ignorance, irreverence, or any cause whatsoever--since these, on account of the widespread corruption, cannot be removed by special prohibitions—the Council lays upon each bishop the duty of finding out such abuses as exist in his own diocese, of bringing them before the next provincial synod, and of reporting them, with the assent of the other bishops, to the Roman Pontiff, by whose authority and prudence measures will be taken for the welfare of the Church at large, so that the benefit of indulgences may be bestowed on all the faithful by means at once pious, holy, and free from corruption." After deploring the fact that, in spite of the remedies prescribed by earlier councils, the traders (quaestores) in indulgences continued their nefarious practice to the great scandal of the faithful, the council ordained that the name and method of these quaestores should be entirely abolished, and that indulgences and other spiritual favors of which the faithful ought not to be deprived should be published by the bishops and bestowed gratuitously, so that all might at length understand that these heavenly treasures were dispensed for the sake of piety and not of lucre (Sess. XXI, c. ix). In 1567 St. Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions.

New Advent; Indulgences



edit on 4/30/12 by FortAnthem because:
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posted on Apr, 30 2012 @ 01:10 PM
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Personally , When the time comes I will hire a SIN EATER.



posted on Apr, 30 2012 @ 01:11 PM
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well one thing re the OP is the news may not be New news

For Catholics, a Door to Absolution Is Reopened
By PAUL VITELLO
Published: February 10, 2009

The announcement in church bulletins and on Web sites has been greeted with enthusiasm by some and wariness by others. But mainly, it has gone over the heads of a vast generation of Roman Catholics who have no idea what it means: ''Bishop Announces Plenary Indulgences.''
''Why are we bringing it back?'' asked Bishop Nicholas A. DiMarzio of Brooklyn, who has embraced the move. ''Because there is sin in the world.''

Like the Latin Mass and meatless Fridays, the indulgence was one of the traditions decoupled from mainstream Catholic practice in the 1960s by the Second Vatican Council, the gathering of bishops that set a new tone of simplicity and informality for the church. Its revival has been viewed as part of a conservative resurgence that has brought some quiet changes and some highly controversial ones, like Pope Benedict XVI's recent decision to lift the excommunications of four schismatic bishops who reject the council's reforms.

query.nytimes.com...


the op may not ne total bunk though
edit on 30-4-2012 by Danbones because: quote box



posted on Apr, 30 2012 @ 01:11 PM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


And thats why I love Catholics, they wont site the Bible, the site what the leaders tell them the bible says...

Sure its great that all the "Traditions" catholics Honor are the ones they added in to make the religion more "tolerable" to pagans in Rome...

Things like Purgatory, Which apparently was a great money maker for the church.

things like Nuns and Priest not marrying (hows that working out?)

Confessing to a MAN.

Yes sure, Peter the "rock" was put in charge, and around the time of Constantine the church was highjacked, and you get things like the crusades, yea thats a god driven Church...

All I can say is the bible is fairly simple to read, and fairly simple to interpret, you don't need a Pope or Global church with a seat on the UN to tell you what it means.



posted on Apr, 30 2012 @ 01:14 PM
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reply to post by FortAnthem
 


good post thank you, that does clear up that statement well
i note the phrase "decoupled" in my above post
which implies "policy" as opposed to as opposed to "law"
just like the terms apply to the removal of rights that is being currently practiced on the peeps


edit on 30-4-2012 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

edit on 30-4-2012 by Danbones because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 30 2012 @ 01:17 PM
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Originally posted by OLD HIPPY DUDE
Personally , When the time comes I will hire a SIN EATER.

Now, there's a reasonable, viable option. The only problem with that, or course, is payment. An indulgence only costs money, which you can accumulate. Sin Eaters need Essence. The foodstuff of life. And if you don't have any other life to give them, they'll eat yours. Then you'll be stuck. Dead but with no way to go to Heaven or Hell.

On the other hand, how bad could that be? It would essentially be like living here on Earth.



posted on Apr, 30 2012 @ 01:28 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by GmoS719
God is the only one who can forgive me of my sins.
Seems to me like the Pope is fishing for funds.

You didn't read the opening article and you didn't read the thread, did you?
As I posted .. the Church says that God forgives sins.
As I posted .. money is not involved.


Yes, you did bring that claification to the thread, and thank you.
It also indicates that the "abuses" are man made...as I hope my references have shown as well.
Luther was in response to man made abuse officially...( sexual habits aside...though they are interesting perspective, and something I didn't know)

Man made abuses: I feel is where the meat of the issue is..thats where the rubber meets the road:
To what extent does that effect the environment we all share now?
I understand the church has had to sell off property...affected perishoners have been quite vocal in their opposition to this



posted on Apr, 30 2012 @ 01:33 PM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Danbones
 

Good God. We're heading back to the medieval feudal days. Un-freaking-believable.

Thanks for posting this. Maybe I'll start wearing my Renaissance garb around town instead of just at the festival.

*facepalm*



Well, let's hope they don't go back to murdering Christians also in the Inquisitions. They already have the blood of 18+ million on their hands.



posted on Apr, 30 2012 @ 01:34 PM
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reply to post by benrl
 



And thats why I love Catholics, they wont site the Bible, the site what the leaders tell them the bible says...


And they attack Protestants for "sola scriptura" doctrine.




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