Where are the ATS military supporters?

Originally posted by seagull
How can I not support? I may have issues with the reasons, so to do the soldiers and sailors serving. None of them want to be in combat, or in areas that may see combat, unless they're insane. They'd, in my experiance as a life long civilian, much rather be with their families...training for what they fervently hope/pray never happens. But most unfortunately, it does happen, is happening, and will happen. They go off to war. ...and that is a horrible thing.

They don't make the decisions. They, for the most part, honor their sworn word and go. They do their duties to the best of their abilities, and some don't come back, some do come back but not whole.

I've seen the scars. Heard the nightmares. Held them when they're back somewhere that they'd give everything they own to never see again... How can I not support? My father is a WWII veteran. A Korean war veteran. A Vietnam war veteran. One of an ever shrinking number. His nightmares, and PTSD, are horrific when they hit. My youngest sister saw some sort of combat during a deployment to the Mediterranean back in the '80's. She doesn't talk about it, but I've heard the nightmares. My little brother saw combat during two tours in Iraq... How can I not support?

Save your anger/hatred for the one's who put them there, and are keeping them there. ...and just, bye the bye, save some of that anger for yourselves. After all, who put those politicians we so despise in office? Those self same politicians who put our friends and families in harms way, who voted them into office? Who can't be bothered to practice the oversight that citizenship demands? Then have the unmitigated gall to complain about it?

"Don't blame the soldiers for the horrible things they do, they only do it because horrible people ask them to. Also, all my friends and family are horrible people, so how can I not support horrible people?"

Murder is murder. Most soldiers are wana be murderers, some are muderers, and anyone who's joined up sincethe last draft ended has no "just following orders" defense, and has no "defending the nation" defense, because they chose to join when the imformation was present to tell them of the corruption of the people in charge, and because america has only needed to be defended once since the cold war, and the us government failed drastically at protecting the nation on that day, letting the enemy get 3.5 out of 4 hits, while the joint american canadian air defense was out getting confused over which hole to put it in.

And since 911 the government has become blatant about how the military is it's strongarm to bully the world. 1 to 2 years later we were attacking a country that didn't attack us, that we had armed, and we attacked them for having similar but older weapons that we have. We took over their government and their land, then gave them the government we want, and gave the oil to people who support our interests over the interests of the people who live over the oil but won't get to use it or the money that comes from it.

I'm not bashing any ww2 vets. Any drafties even, because nam drafties should have fought our government, but they didnkt know the gulf of tonken was a lie. They didn't have the internet, and the earlier wars of the century had had good reason (although the same reasoning should have kept russia and england off the the good side)

If you want to see someone honorably i'd say look at my dad's facebook. He served in nam. He tried to talk his way out, but he wouldn't run to canada, or take jail time(which to me wuld have been the most honorable thing to do when told to fight an unjust war). He got malaria twice. Once, they thought he went awol from the infirmary and found him in the woods 4 days later with malaria for the second time. He's come in contact first hand with monsanto chemical agents. And he tried not to be a murderer.

And here is a link for people who want to see my facebook.

ETA: And something important I forgot to mention. I do have anger for and blame for the politicians, and I get out as much information on their corruption as possible. I voted for ennis kucinich in the last election. We have a pepi/coke political system. Coke says don't drink pepsi. Pepsi says don't drink coke. So everyone drinks pepsi or coke, because they are the wealthy and powerful that can advertise constantly to everyone. No one drinks rc.

And it's the soldiers, ignorant or not, who do the most to allow the #s in charge to do the heinous things they do.

reply to post by Adlai

Wait.. wait.. did you just call seagull's family "horrible people", which vicariously is calling me and every other soldier on this site "horrible people" and then turn right around and say your dad fought in Vietnam, after deciding not to run, and "tried" not to kill anyone so therefore he's a hero.. do you see your contradictions? Contradictions aside, by the same logic you spewed your father is a horrible person after the Tonkin Incident became public knowledge.

Point is.. that whole post response was a waste of time, and made absolutely ZERO points. Why isn't other soldiers given the same respect? We were lied to going in to the war.. but it's done JUST like the Vietnam War.. you are no better than the ingrates that called the Vietnam Vets baby killers.. you condemn what you do not understand. As a member put it 1 page back we are not politicians, we are service members.. condemn your government.

Originally posted by 31Bravo
We didn't invade your country because of your beliefs bud.. we invaded it simply for oil control. I think the political leaders of the U.S. could care less about your beliefs. A government coup, in reality, isn't to install a democratic government.. it's to install a leader of some sort that will give us better control over the oil your country sits on.

So why bring my religion into it when you speak? Do not, because my religion is not why you are in any of our countries, by your own admission, yet, you are quick to bring up my religion and my culture when you find out what it is, rather than address points.

you do not address the subject matter, rather you seem to attempt discrediting the person.

I would love it for America to pull out of the middle east. As it has been said before in this thread, to which I have agreed, we (Americans) unfortunately are in this because of foreign policy and national interests. Truly a sad story.

This is something only Americans can do, by protesting of foreign policy, by stopping your support of the corporate dictatorship of your government.

It is your vote who allowed this evil in your government, and your vote can remove them. If your vote can no longer remove them, then maybe it is time to consider how it will be you to do this, and not someone else. Because that someone else will come, eventually, if things do not change for the better in our world.

Tell me though.. if the shoe was on the other foot, in other words, if your country had the power and the U.S. did not.. you're telling me the Middle East wouldn't be the ones invading other countries for there national/foreign/religious agendas? Exactly. This goes for ANY member that says the U.S. is soooo evil.. got news for you, but whatever country you sit in has selfish agendas like everyone else.. it's what makes you human. Doesn't make it right, but it's what makes you human.

edit on 2-5-2012 by 31Bravo because: (no reason given)

When was the last time in history any nation of the middle east invaded a western nation? Britain, France or North America...? over 400 years?

Does that give US any moral reason to invade another country...over 400 years later?

If you do not want your country invaded would it not make sense to be peaceful with other nations on this earth?

You keep an army to keep your own borders secure, not to invade sovereign nations. Expansionist policies are morally wrong and only serve to weaken the empire in time. Remember, every empire who had expansionist policies fell victim to their own policies and inherent racism, causing the eventual collapse of their empires. People have a tendency to rise up against being treated unjustly... remember Alaric.

I support any nation to keep secure her borders, as this is what armies are for, and this is a good and just cause. But what is happening now, is neither good, nor just.... nor can you pretend it is to secure your borders since none of these countries have wished ill upon your people... we only refused to be raped by your corporations, and asked for fair payment of our resources. Not one thing to do with your borders. Not one thing to do with any American citizen, and not one thing that has given them any benefit whatsoever.

reply to post by Jameela


Jameela, if the only choices we are given to vote for are the evil ones you speak of, how are we supposed to vote anything else? You literally have to vote for the lesser of two evils in America. There is no other choice.

Originally posted by 31Bravo
reply to post by Adlai

 

Wait.. wait.. did you just call seagull's family "horrible people", which vicariously is calling me and every other soldier on this site "horrible people" and then turn right around and say your dad fought in Vietnam, after deciding not to run, and "tried" not to kill anyone so therefore he's a hero.. do you see your contradictions? Contradictions aside, by the same logic you spewed your father is a horrible person after the Tonkin Incident became public knowledge.

Point is.. that whole post response was a waste of time, and made absolutely ZERO points. Why isn't other soldiers given the same respect? We were lied to going in to the war.. but it's done JUST like the Vietnam War.. you are no better than the ingrates that called the Vietnam Vets baby killers.. you condemn what you do not understand. As a member put it 1 page back we are not politicians, we are service members.. condemn your government.

edit on 2-5-2012 by 31Bravo because: (no reason given)

Calling the dudes entire family horrible was something caled hyperbole to make the point that someone being your friend or family does no in any way lead credence to them or the things they do being good or honorable.

I never sai my dad was a hero. If my dad had told a judge he won't go to nam and taken some jail time I might concider him a hero. I was making the point that he was honorable because there was a draft which makes him ethically responsible to either go to nam or go to jail, becase running is not in the much spoken of but never seen social contract, as well as running away from the obligation of duty or punishment. He still could have chosen jail time over killing people. But the main point is he was drafted.

Aside from that, there was not the history of the misdeadof the cold war to present for him to look to, nor the resources we have like the internet to look these things up and talk to countless people from all around the world. The info about the gulf of tonkin wasn't out until later.

In the last 20 years anyone enlisting could easily with minor research have found out at least about the gulf of tonkin, agent orange, iran contra, mkultra, ect., after the first gulf war there was evidence of biological testing on soldiers, which was part of the cause for how many suffered ptsd symptoms. Not to mention kuwait had started the # with iraq. The 911 report showed no connection with saddam or iraq. It barely showed a connection between bin laden and 911.

There is no draft and anyone in the military has had to enlist or renlist since 911, most since 2006, was after finding now wma that for some reason it's ok for us to have but not for muslims with oil across the ocean (not to say I think we should have nukes, just pointing out hypocricy, greed, and bigotry, or maybe not bigotry but sociopathy).

And my last point is, condemn your government and the people working forthem by your dollar to allow them to stay in power and abuse the world.

Originally posted by DerbyCityLights
reply to post by Jameela

 

Jameela, if the only choices we are given to vote for are the evil ones you speak of, how are we supposed to vote anything else? You literally have to vote for the lesser of two evils in America. There is no other choice.

First, there are lower level electors. Try to become one. It's usually pretty easy because people don't know they exist. I wish I could remember what they are called. But there are several levels of voting that decide who' running.

Second, get involved with local government, even if it's just voicing your concern and ideas on how to fix it. Try to get the state congress or governor to plan and propose constitutional ammendments to make campaign contributions fair enough for everyone to have an equal chance, not just the rich and corrupt.

Third, become a lawyer or a politician or a teacher or a journalist, or even a doctor (so long as you don't fall into pharma's pockets)

Become an activist. Protest, occupy, petition, tweet, ect. Join the aclu.

Leave the country or secede a part of the country.

Help campaign, mae sure you vote, and vote 3rd party if necessary.

I also like the idea of internocracy.

Originally posted by DerbyCityLights
reply to post by Jameela

 

Jameela, if the only choices we are given to vote for are the evil ones you speak of, how are we supposed to vote anything else? You literally have to vote for the lesser of two evils in America. There is no other choice.

There is always another choice. Never say your hands are tied, because when you do, you are defeated. Always there is another choice.

Imam Jafar as Sadiq (as) said; "Beware of those who command and who consider themselves leaders; As God as my witness, the man behind whom the sound of sandals [of his partisans] is raised will only perish, and cause others to perish."

While the fundamental principles which are written into your constitution are good, the system itself is officially 100% corrupt now.

The system is based on money to get into office, a debt which must be repaid. It is corporations which front the money and corporations who are repaid once in office. Politicians are nothing more than talking heads of corporate America, doing the bidding of their master. Power, money, and prestige is the goal of the politician. To say they are somebody, while driving a fancy car and vacationing. Power, money, and prestige is the goal of the corporation. They have a mutual goal and thereby base a friendship. Helpmeets one to another.

The only way forward is to change this system, remove what makes the friendship so lasting. Take power and money out of government.

They can be public servants, and not corporate slaves. Remove the money, elect people who are trustworthy, good and honest men who aren't looking for power. Pay them, but base it on the median annual wage in America. Do not allow it based on money and power, have it based on the good honor of the people you are electing. Not just who talks a good game. Remember, the one who is quiet is the man of action, not the one who speaks loudly.

Stop the two party only system, recognize these two parties are now corrupt.

Decrease the size of government, allow states more individual freedoms and individual oversight, increasing the state, decreasing the federal. Decrease military spending by stopping foreign occupations.

A complete overhaul of government is needed at this point, not just a new president. You need to rethink what is causing the problems in America, rethink how your money is being spent... people speak of social security being bankrupt soon, yet how much do you spend daily fighting in lands not your own?

Learn to be friends with other nations, have actual defense at your borders and leave the world alone. Pay others a fair price for what you are buying from them, and this only after you use your own resources first. I do not understand why you sell what you have to others only to turn around and buy all you need from outside the country. And now the strangest thing is happening, your oil fields are closing To tell you there is an oil crisis which cannot be met without another invasion of yet another sovereign nation perhaps?

Decide for yourselves what is important, what is necessary, what is not, and what is corrupt. You can make changes in government peacefully, although some may die or be imprisoned doing it, it is possible for change. Always it is possible for change.

reply to post by Adlai


To say you're badly mistaken would be an understatement.

It's obvious that you know little to nothing of what you speak. Why I'm even bothering to reply will remain a mystery to me...

Soldiers are, in the vast majority nothing even resembling wanna be murderers as you so erroneously state. Their reasons for joining are many, most it's a job, an opportunity to travel, it may even be a duty they feel necessary.

Attempting to stereotype all soldiers/sailors is just wrong.

reply to post by seagull


Not to mention the severe lack of any kind of knowledge the poster of that comment probably has on what 'murderers' actually are. I'm pursuing a forensics degree and have read quite a bit on what makes a serial killer tick.

To make a comment that "Soldiers are murderers" is inane, uneducated, and laughable at best.

Do some research. Learn who and what you're talking about. Then come and make a comment. Until then, it's best you let your parents turn your netnanny back on and stay away from educated conversation.

Thanks for that awesome reply to them, Mod. Cheers to you!

reply to post by Jameela


While your thoughts are noble, and precisely the same thoughts I have, I also have to consider that I have a wife and a child to take care of. If I do step up and fight the good fight, but end up in prison, beaten or dead, my family is no longer able to take care of themselves. I am the bread winner, and without my support, my family crumbles economically. It is a catch 22. While I want change, my number 1 priority is my family. It always will be. I have to choose what will enable their very survival.

Originally posted by DerbyCityLights
reply to post by Jameela

 

While your thoughts are noble, and precisely the same thoughts I have, I also have to consider that I have a wife and a child to take care of. If I do step up and fight the good fight, but end up in prison, beaten or dead, my family is no longer able to take care of themselves. I am the bread winner, and without my support, my family crumbles economically. It is a catch 22. While I want change, my number 1 priority is my family. It always will be. I have to choose what will enable their very survival.

Will they survive if we do not stand now, while we have the chance?

I understand your point... honestly I do, but if all the good people say this, then nothing will ever change and it will only get worse.... and worse... and worse

What will that constitution be in 10 years if not defended now, or 20, or 30.... live in the now, or be a man of honor, who can see into the future, and protects the future generations.

Why is it so hard for people to read. The thread is calling for military supporters, so those who are here putting down service members are only doing so to cause problems. If you do not like those who are in the military, make your own thread about how much you hate them for whatever ridiculous reason.

Another thing, there is no point to coming in here spouting off about anti government bs when that has nothing at all to do with supporting the men and women in uniform. While I've been in and even while deployed we(the soldiers I was with) have often had the same opinions on 'what are we doing' 'why' and all that other stuff. OK we get it, things are messed up, and many of us in uniform KNOW this. Blaming those in the military for all the wrongdoing that is happening makes just as much sense as blaming EVERYONE for paying taxes which pay for these sort of operations that nobody wants.

Originally posted by SGTSECRET
Why is it so hard for people to read. The thread is calling for military supporters, so those who are here putting down service members are only doing so to cause problems. If you do not like those who are in the military, make your own thread about how much you hate them for whatever ridiculous reason.

Another thing, there is no point to coming in here spouting off about anti government bs when that has nothing at all to do with supporting the men and women in uniform. While I've been in and even while deployed we(the soldiers I was with) have often had the same opinions on 'what are we doing' 'why' and all that other stuff. OK we get it, things are messed up, and many of us in uniform KNOW this. Blaming those in the military for all the wrongdoing that is happening makes just as much sense as blaming EVERYONE for paying taxes which pay for these sort of operations that nobody wants.

You know what my entire family has served this country in both ww2 and vietnam and I don't appreciate you basically calling me scum for not supporting this war. You should respect the fact that people are trying to get people the hell out of that war zone and actually give a damn about our troops when they come home and the VA refuses to help them. I'm sick of being called anti american simply because I don't support a war that we as a country have no busniess fighting. You are not in some special club becaue you're in the military. Stop acting like you are.

Originally posted by SGTSECRET
Why is it so hard for people to read. The thread is calling for military supporters, so those who are here putting down service members are only doing so to cause problems. If you do not like those who are in the military, make your own thread about how much you hate them for whatever ridiculous reason.

Another thing, there is no point to coming in here spouting off about anti government bs when that has nothing at all to do with supporting the men and women in uniform. While I've been in and even while deployed we(the soldiers I was with) have often had the same opinions on 'what are we doing' 'why' and all that other stuff. OK we get it, things are messed up, and many of us in uniform KNOW this. Blaming those in the military for all the wrongdoing that is happening makes just as much sense as blaming EVERYONE for paying taxes which pay for these sort of operations that nobody wants.

I try to fix problems with words. So I try to talk sense into the naive or mislead or brainwashed or arrogant and so on and so on. This is a public forum. If you have a problem with the opinions on this board than make yourself somewhere private to go.

You've also admitted to knowing he things asked of you were #ed up and questioned them but still followed orders. And then you're logic broke because you were trying to say that it made you less responsible, but it really makes you more responsible.

Aside from that, there is nothing to give credibility to the government that they are leading any type of just or worthy military objectives, nor to say that it's worth it because oil prices are still high and the government is trillions of dollars in debt, with a big portion of it belonging to military funding.

reply to post by seagull


reply to post by mf_luder


The military exists for war. Soldiers are trained to kill. The soldiers not used for killing are used to make machines to kill, transport people to kill, build machines to transport people to kill, figure out ways how not to get killed while killing and/or rescuing killers, repairing killers. Yes, sometimes the military just stands around with guns to scare people without guns, and sometimes they march in parades, and sometimes they're doing humanitarian efforts, but mostly they do what they are designed for, they kill, or try to kill.

The geneva convention made it a war crime to attack a nation without being attacked. Has iraq attacked us? Pakistan? Libya? It's also a crime to fund a government committing war crimes, so it's illegal to not pay your "voluntary" taxes in america, but it's also illegal to pay your taxes according to the geneva convention.

reply to post by cavtrooper7

The only two times actually three times I thought that I didn't do enough was the two times I said no and did not go...and the one time I did not do enough in properly assessing the situation and got shot.

I was the only one who did get hit though but I should have seen it coming and after reliving the experience over and over in my head...I can't believe how stupid I was to not seeing it coming. Thus...I paid for it...but so did the SOB who will never shoot anyone again.

Split Infinity

reply to post by Adlai


You're wrong.

Don't like being told that, do you? But then again, you don't know the many functions of a military. Combat, or killing as you like to put it, is indeed one of them. But what else could a military do BUT kill? Great question isn't it.

In my first 3 years of service in the Marine Corps, who are known for their combat prowess, take a wild guess at how many people I have killed. 2006-2009, those were my first three years. Guess how many men, women and children I gunned down in cold blood.

0

And that is STILL how many I've killed now. "How is that possible?" I bet your befuddled mind is asking yourself. The military is only there to kill right?

Let's see, where to start. Things I've done in my first three years of service:

Volunteered for community relations with the natives in Okinawa, Japan.
Volunteered for community relations with the natives in The Philippines.
Volunteered for community relations with the natives in Thailand.
Helped build a school in The Philippines.
Helped build a church in The Philippines.
Provided support for a clinic set up to aid the natives in The Philippines.
Provided support for a clinic set up to aid the natives in Thailand.
Provided support for a clinic set up to aid the natives in Cambodia.
Provided support for a clinic set up to aid the natives in Indonesia.
Handed out food and water to children in The Philippines.
Handed out food and water to children in Thailand.
Helped in aiding Burma(Myanmar) during the natural disaster that hit which entailed hours of working to put food on pallets and help make water which every carrier is able to do.

I've spent hours playing with children from other countries, giving them memories they'll never forget. I've actually had kids who are older now find me on Facebook and message me thanking me for the day that I was there and played with them.

As you can see, I've done nothing but good things in my military career. A good 60% of the military has probably had the same career I have. Do some research and understand that the military is MUCH more than a force for death and destruction.

reply to post by Echo3Foxtrot


Echo,

If I could star this reply indefinitely, I would.
I know I've talked to you before about this, but it never gets old to hear such wonderful deeds from the men and women of our services.

You, my friend, are an inspiration, and a role model fr each and every service member.

I support our military and the veterans who have served. Maybe there are some problems to work out here and there but that's normal. We hear a lot more about the problems now than in the past when these things were covered up. There's no way that we can have wars without a few soldiers going off the deep end. That's a problem with wars that will never go away.

Be careful if you are going to be sent to active duty.

reply to post by rickymouse


The problems of war that will never go away are death and cowards with power commanding it.
Take away the cowards, the power, or the death and you don't have war.

reply to post by Echo3Foxtrot


Again, because the army does some good things doesn't mean it's good. Al capone did humanitarian work.
There were plenty of other groups you could have joined to do the same thing without being connected to murder and corruption, and without having american tax payers foot the bill or foreign countries. Or join the peace corp and take tax payers money to do nothing for them. Or go to detroit and build a hospital or a school. And you couldn't be sure those are the things you would be doing when joining the corrupt organitzation.

Can anyone provide evidence that he military is good? Not that it does good things, but that the majority of it's people and operations aren't immoral, corrupt, murderous? Can anyone explain how killing is ok? Or how attacking a 3rd world nation that hasn't even threatened us is ok? Or how spending a sick mans money on another mans hospital or another mans death is ok?

Our military is what makes it unsafe to be american. You make the world hate us.