Romans 11 and the current so-called Jewish State of Israel

reply to post by jmdewey60

Evidently, Josiah the Messiah didn't quite recognize El of Beth-El.

15 Moreover the altar that was at Bethel, and the high place which Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin, had made, even that altar and the high place he broke down; and he burned the high place and beat it to dust, and burned the Asherah.
II Kings 23:15

I've made mention before that many sayings of Jesus can only be understood as sarcasm. Imagine this setting,

Jesus comes out of the synagogue with his followers, after some portion of Deuteronomy was read, about making careful inquiry about some violation having occurred, then, once the offending party is located, destroying the whole town and killing all the inhabitants.

A disciple says, "Wow, that was intense!" "Sin is very dangerous"

then in a tone so heavy in sarcasm that it's practically visible, Jesus replies:

"If your right eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it away from you. For it is more profitable for you that one of your members should perish, than for your whole body to be cast into Gehenna. If your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off, and throw it away from you. For it is more profitable for you that one of your members should perish, than for your whole body to be cast into Gehenna."

Here is a Google Earth image of what I can best determine to be the place, Bethel
click on the thumbnail for a larger version

I could imagine someone looking at this hill, either directly across from it, or from below, and seeing this terracing and describing it as a ladder, with "angels" moving up and down it, and this god sitting on top "in heaven", but really just on top of this hill, which made for the viewer, an appropriate habitation for a regional god.
Anyway, what made me think of this was reading that PDF I linked to and the author seems to be using Leviticus 26 to personify the land itself, and how it would enjoy the rest, of either, the people taking sabbaths, including not planting for a year out of so many, or to have the people dispersed for not keeping the sabbaths.
So the land is an entity itself which can personify itself literally as an avenging warrior against anyone living on it.

reply to post by pthena

And suppose for a moment, that due to my age and the ready availability of the printed Bible, that I have actually read the Torah more than any of the hearers of Jesus.

Jesus says, "Think not that I have come to destroy the Law and the Prophets. No, I have come to fulfill them."

That's the moment I start screaming, run up to Jesus, grab his feet and cry, "No, Jesus, No! That would be the death of us all! Please show us a better way!"

reply to post by jmdewey60

I only read two pages of that pdf. Then I suspected the author of being a fundamentalist. From the google earth picture, it would seem that the report of Josiah's reducing the high-place to dust were grossly exaggerated.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

You need to brush up on your Israel history.
The "Northern Kingdom", meaning the kingdom of Israel that broke off from Judah, were dispersed by the Assyrians.
The elite class of Judeans got sent to Babylon.
destruction of northern kingdom

edit on 3-5-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

The faithful remnant moved south and the idol worshippers were destroyed and shipped off to Babylon. The Persians captured Babylon without a battle, and King Cyrus released the Jews who wanted to return to Israel to go and gave them furnishings and gold and silver to rebuild their temple.

reply to post by NOTurTypical
That's a version of history you just made up, which is not too surprising, considering how much other stuff you just make up.
So, what is your point? Are you saying this is the curse in action?
How is this relevant to today?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

That's a version of history you just made up, which is not too surprising, considering how much other stuff you just make up.
So, what is your point? Are you saying this is the curse in action?
How is this relevant to today?

Actually that's Jeremiah, it's in the OT.

reply to post by pthena

Jesus says, "Think not that I have come to destroy the Law and the Prophets. No, I have come to fulfill them."

That's the moment I start screaming, run up to Jesus, grab his feet and cry, "No, Jesus, No! That would be the death of us all! Please show us a better way!"

I wouldn't even pay attention to those laws. He became our law, our commandments come from him. As for the jews, they were stuffing words into his mouth ever since they left Egypt and started worshipping Astoreth the Queen of Heaven. A problem they struggled with even to this day. The sacrifices to her began again a couple years ago. Makes me wonder what they were doing in the Holy of Holies when the Ark went MIA .

reply to post by pthena

I only read two pages of that pdf. Then I suspected the author of being a fundamentalist.

It doesn't seem like a normal theological journal, like you pointed out and is probably mostly their own Bible college, or something, seeing I downloaded several essays from the site and they seem to be by the same author.
The problem comes from the subject-matter, covenants, something Dispensationalists obsess on.
So, like you say, fundamentalist, like I figured it would be, but worthwhile (I imagined) to see if he had any good arguments. Well, not really, as it turns out, where the main argument is of a fundamentalist nature; 'it's in the Bible, so it has to come true', the only thing, in my opinion, is that all it does is put you right back where they were when Jesus showed up, and there is no indication, as far as I am concerned, that the outcome would be any different.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Makes me wonder what they were doing in the Holy of Holies when the Ark went MIA .

1 Kings 12:28
After seeking advice, the king made two golden calves. He said to the people, "It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem. Here are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt."

I would see this as an attempt at creating a replacement for the "lost" Ark.
I think the god of the Sinai would have destroyed Jerusalem if it was ever carried through the city gates, so the original Ark was probably dismantled, and a dummy version brought in by David. Then a replica built for show, later, by Solomon.
To me, it seems they switched gods when they went from one place to another, where the original god was one who dwelt in the hills to the north of Jerusalem, then another god who was in Arabia, then took over the Jebusite god in Jerusalem.
The Northern Kingdom:
verse 25,
Then Jeroboam fortified Shechem in the hill country of Ephraim and lived there

probably were going back to the "original" god and the calves very well may have been like the cherubim on the old Ark, and not like the nice angelic human looking type from the movie version of the Ark.

reply to post by jmdewey60

all it does is put you right back where they were when Jesus showed up, and there is no indication, as far as I am concerned, that the outcome would be any different.

Did you notice what a detailed breakdown he did of Leviticus, dissecting verses, making charts, graphs, correlations? When it comes to the New Testament, he doesn't explain anything. "The National Return to the Land?" All he does is says "Romans 9-11" with no explanation, no break down, no charts, no graphs. And that from a seminary professor!

I have concluded then, that there is no logical, rational, way to say that Paul would support the current political entity sitting in Palestine known as "The Jewish State of Israel".

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

I wouldn't even pay attention to those laws. He became our law, our commandments come from him. As for the jews, they were stuffing words into his mouth ever since they left Egypt

I usually don't pay attention to those laws. I think that's what Paul was getting at. His gospel concerned a righteousness from God, apart from the Law.

When you think of Jesus, I would suggest, since you hold the view of a preexistent Christ, perhaps you should think of some time long before the invention of Yahweh. After reading Leviticus 26, it takes me a long time to recover. This is how I feel about the Yahweh depicted in many places in Torah and Prophets: jealous of position, vindictive toward those who question his position, hunting down to destroy those who question his position.

Saturn Devouring His Son
Saturn Devouring His Son is the name given to a painting by Spanish artist Francisco Goya. According to the traditional interpretation, it depicts the Greek myth of the Titan Cronus (in the title Romanised to Saturn), who, fearing that he would be overthrown by his children, ate each one upon their birth.

Goya - Black Paintings
At the age of 75, alone and in mental and physical despair, he completed the work as one of his 14 Black Paintings,[note 2] all of which were executed in oil directly onto the plaster walls of his house. Goya did not intend for the paintings to be exhibited, did not write of them,[note 3] and likely never spoke of them.[25] It was not until around 1874, some 50 years after his death, that they were taken down and transferred to a canvas support.

Why in the World any one would want to go to such a monster is beyond me.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Then Jeroboam fortified Shechem in the hill country of Ephraim and lived there

probably were going back to the "original" god and the calves very well may have been like the cherubim on the old Ark, and not like the nice angelic human looking type from the movie version of the Ark.

So if you think back to a possible reason for the golden calf story at Sinai. What was the difference between the golden calf that Aaron made for the people and the winged bulls on the lid of the ark?

Only this: The calf was plain for the people to see. The winged bulls were hidden from the people, a secret for the priests alone.

Jeroboam was restoring the "people's god" to the people.

I just watched this video that was posted on another thread.

I agree with the assessment made about the Yahweh character.

reply to post by pthena


That makes Jesus' Hebrew Name very peculiar doesn't it now? Elijah too.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by pthena

 

That makes Jesus' Hebrew Name very peculiar doesn't it now? Elijah too.

Especially when Christ's true name is pronounced YeHshuWaH or YeHoshuWaH or as some claim even YaHushuWaH. YHWH all up in that. Gotta love that Tetragrammaton.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


It's Yeshua. Means "YHVH saves". Elijah's name is Eliyahu" and that means "My God is YHVH".

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

. . . Christ's true name is pronounced YeHshuWaH . . .

Christians believe that Christ's true name is found in the New Testament, and it is, Jesus.
You may want to consider converting to Christianity, rather than whatever religion it is that you invented for yourself and are promoting in order to subvert the real religion.

reply to post by pthena

I agree with the assessment made about the Yahweh character.

I don't agree with the part where he says our goal should be getting back to the "source".
That would be the void and nothingness.
What was the point of creation if all we want to do is reverse it?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

That makes Jesus' Hebrew Name very peculiar doesn't it now? Elijah too.

Who cares about Hebrew? I don't. Jesus, and the people he lived around spoke Greek and Aramaic. I find the very idea that people push that Jesus couldn't speak Greek insulting and demeaning.

The Galileeans were predominantly Iturean, that is Greek speaking Syro-Phoenicians who had been converted to Judaism at sword-point by Messiah Alexander Jannaeus.

Itureans
A southern branch of the Itureans occupied the area around Galilee but were conquered by the Hasmonean king Alexander Jannaeus and forcefully converted to Judaism.

see also:

Mark 7:24 From there he arose, and went away into the borders of Tyre and Sidon. He entered into a house, and didn’t want anyone to know it, but he couldn’t escape notice. 25 For a woman, whose little daughter had an unclean spirit, having heard of him, came and fell down at his feet. 26 Now the woman was a Greek, a Syrophoenician by race. She begged him that he would cast the demon out of her daughter. 27 But Jesus said to her, "“Let the children be filled first, for it is not appropriate to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.”"

28 But she answered him, “Yes, Lord. Yet even the dogs under the table eat the children’s crumbs.”

29 He said to her, "“For this saying, go your way. The demon has gone out of your daughter.”"

30 She went away to her house, and found the child having been laid on the bed, with the demon gone out.

Jesus didn't seem to have any trouble speaking with the Greek Syrophoenician woman.

Why do you think all the Christian New Testament is written in Greek?