Romans 11 and the current so-called Jewish State of Israel

What would Paul's attitude be with regards to having his letter used as support for ethnic cleansing of Palestine for the sake of people choosing to identify as Jewish and claiming to be Israel? Especially, what would he think of former Christians who have abandoned Christianity to become Jews, who then move to Palestine, in order to displace Christian Palestinians who descended from 1st Century Judean converts to Christianity?

I will state my position at the beginning so as to avoid confusion: I am a Western U.S. post-Christian Pagan. After 20 years of studying Christian theology, I came to the conclusion that the concept of a God toward whom reconciliation must be sought or found was contrary to my concept of God. I abandoned that concept of a reconciliation needy God. I therefore have no claim to Christianity, and herewith forfeit any claim derived from posing as a Christian.

I have been a deacon and pre-ministerial student of the Seventh-day Adventist Denomination; a member of the Jesus Movement of the 1970s with heavy Dispensationalist and Christian Zionist influence; a member of a "New Testament Church" revival cult that leaned heavily on Judaism (weird huh?); a confirmed Lutheran and Lector; a member of Assembly of God (Fundamentalist, Dispensationalist, Pentecostal, Zionist); for Christian Church, Disciples of Christ (Liberal, Ecumenical) I was Elder, Adult Sunday School teacher, fill in preacher and generally highly respected person.

Having freed myself from bondage to written words, whether they be Torah, or Prophets, or Paul, I have no reason to claim that Paul agrees with me or that I agree with Paul. I am free to objectively look at Paul as Paul, and not as Paul and I as co-partisans. He need not bend to my ideology, nor I bend to his.

Having said all that, I invite you to come! Let's dance!

When approaching Romans chapter 11, it would be helpful to first look at the conclusion that Paul himself makes of his diatribe (arguing both sides).

all scripture references from WEB (World English Bible) open source, freely available.

Romans 11:32 For God has shut up all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all.

So in the final analysis, Jew or Gentile, all are in the same situation when it comes to this God, toward whom reconciliation is needed. This is consistent with Paul's previous statement:

Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God. 20 Because by the works of the law, no flesh will be justified in his sight. For through the law comes the knowledge of sin. But now apart from the law, a righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all and on all those who believe. For there is no distinction, 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God set forth to be an atoning sacrifice, through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness through the passing over of prior sins, in God’s forbearance; 26 to demonstrate his righteousness at this present time; that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him who has faith in Jesus.

Simple Christian here ...didn't someone claim that Paul was going mad from too much learning ? or something like that ...I was thinking about studying theology but I some how could not agree with the universities statement of faith ...I thought at the time it was just me ...I truly believe now that the Lord himself shut that door ...I figured I could learn what I needed to while avoiding all that other confusing stuff they want you to know ...Tell me is there a theology class on Israel ? ie. Israelogy .. inquiring minds need to know ...peace

reply to post by pthena


1 Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
(KJV)

Seems religions today have adapted well to the NT beliefs. One will never know the good unless you see the evil.

reply to post by the2ofusr1

Acts 26:19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to them of Damascus, at Jerusalem, and throughout all the country of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, doing works worthy of repentance. 21 For this reason the Jews seized me in the temple, and tried to kill me. 22 Having therefore obtained the help that is from God, I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would happen, 23 how the Christ must suffer, and how, by the resurrection of the dead, he would be first to proclaim light both to these people and to the Gentiles.”

24 As he thus made his defense, Festus said with a loud voice, “Paul, you are crazy! Your great learning is driving you insane!”

Tell me is there a theology class on Israel ? ie. Israelogy .. inquiring minds need to know

When I was studying for Lutheran confirmation, we had a very detailed study called Bethany Bible Series which when completed, filled 2 2" three ring binders. That was back in 1980. I can't find it mentioned anywhere on the internet. Unfortunately, I don't still physically have the binders. I couldn't even say who published it. Nothing called Bethany at present seems remotely similar. I'm sorry. I'll keep this request in mind though. Maybe someone else may have a suggestion.

Originally posted by pthena
What would Paul's attitude be with regards to having his letter used as support for ethnic cleansing of Palestine for the sake of people choosing to identify as Jewish and claiming to be Israel? Especially, what would he think of former Christians who have abandoned Christianity to become Jews, who then move to Palestine, in order to displace Christian Palestinians who descended from 1st Century Judean converts to Christianity?

Your "question" (which is really just a statement veiled in a question) is lacking a few things. The first is the broader context of Scripture, and the second is the context of the world we live in, in the light of Scripture. Now, as a pagan, I wouldn't expect your question, or the statements that follow, to have either of those things, but as someone who claims to have held various positions in churches, I'd have expected that someone would have taught you on these issues. Sadly, that rarely seems to be the case in churches these days.

So... let me try to break it down for you.

1) Israel is God's Chosen People.
The Bible iterates and reiterates this point repeatedly throughout Scripture. Let's take this as a given for now. But let me also clarify my position: nowhere in Scripture does God say that His chosen people have been rejected on a permanent basis. The very chapters you quote, Romans 11-13, talk about the Jewish people being rejected for a time, "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in". The return of Christ and the restoration and revival of the Jewish people are coincidental in this context - a theme repeated throughout Scripture, e.g the final chapters of Isaiah, Ezekiel, and practically every other prophetic book.

2) Being God's chosen people does NOT make you perfect, or right.
This is where a lot of people, and a lot of churches, go wrong. Do I support Israel, and her right to exist? Yes I do. Does that mean that I inherently accept that everything Israel does is correct? No it does not. Does Israel have the right to protect her sovereignty, her state and her citizens, from (for example) terrorism and rocket attacks? Yes she does - can you imagine if Mexico were firing thousands of rockets every year into the US? You'd better believe that the US would crush Mexico in a heartbeat. HOWEVER... that doesn't mean that Israel is above reproach, either. Is Israel's treatment of the Palestinean people (whether you believe that the "Palestineans" are a real or contrived identity is irrelevant to this question) fair? Just? GOOD? It's certainly hard to argue that... though there are good things that are done mixed in with the bad.

For anyone who ties to argue that Israel is beyond reproach, all you have to do is point them to the book of Judges in the Bible. At which point(s) was Israel following God? At which were they NOT following God? Yet all the while, they remain God's chosen nation. They're chosen not on the basis of what they do, but upon who they are: the children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

3) Israel's existence today is the fulfilment of prophecy
c.f Ezekiel 38, and the following reference, which shows that Ezekiel prophecied TO THE EXACT DAY the date of the restoration of the nation of Israel. clickedy here

Hopefully that answers a few "questions".
As far as some of your other comments, about people "choosing to identify as Jewish" and "claiming to be Israel", you'd really struggle to push that point with an anthropologist... or with anyone who has read Scripture. The book of Daniel has some pretty clear indications as to who the Jews are. The term Jew is used in the book to describe not just people of the tribe of Judah, but people from ALL of Israel... so there goes that idea.

Originally posted by SuckerMe
reply to post by pthena

 

1 Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
(KJV)

Seems religions today have adapted well to the NT beliefs. One will never know the good unless you see the evil.

Again paul discriminates himself. In studying the greek word 'palaios' this word was not used but for one suggestion but to put off God (old man) and put on the new man (Jesus) which is a lie. When God says Im alive and well. Will you follow life or death. God clearly identified these scoffers in the OT.

Colossians 3:9-10 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; (KJV) And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: (KJV)

Hosea 5:14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him. (KJV)

Time was created by God therefore he is not under that realm of 'old'. But Paul and Jesus are clearly dead men.

reply to post by SuckerMe

Seems religions today have adapted well to the NT beliefs. One will never know the good unless you see the evil.

That passage from 1 Corinthians 9 is very important when it comes to Paul's approach, vs 18 "free of charge", he wasn't getting rich. vs 19 "though free, I make myself a slave". vs 20 "to the Jew, I became as a Jew."

I have actually faulted Paul in my own mind, "You claim to give Torah the heave-ho, yet your message to Gentiles is made ambiguous by still trying to cater to the Torah-bound, tell us plainly, should I buy a Torah, or not?"

I don't like the epistles written by Paul. I prefer the epistles of James, Peter, and John, because they seem less vitriolic. But I bet you are right that Paul would be opposed to Zionism. (Sorry, I can't contribute anything more useful to the discussion, but star and flag.)

reply to post by Awen24

lacking a few things. The first is the broader context of Scripture, and the second is the context of the world we live in, in the light of Scripture. Now, as a pagan, I wouldn't expect your question, or the statements that follow, to have either of those things,

The nature of the question itself is from a perspective of one who is thoroughly familiar with the broader context of scripture and the context of the world we live in. Because I choose to reject the Old Testament as a source for my World-view is not out of ignorance but out of knowledge of Old Testament world-view.

1) Israel is God's Chosen People.

What god exactly, and to what purpose?

The mythology goes that Yahweh brought Israel out of Egypt by killing many Egyptians, young, old, newborn, then promised to bring them into a land already inhabited, which they were to genocide. Once in the desert, through direct action ( plagues, ground opening up and swallowing people, fire shooting out and burning people up) and indirect actions ( calling for executions, calling for indiscriminate interfraternal swordwork) the whole generation died (except 2).

To continue the myth: the next generation proceeds to take the land through genocide, and enslavement of the inhabitants.

There is no historical or archeological data to back up this myth. But, by making that into "an eternal covenant", the Torah has concretized it in the form of a book, making it an archetype to be repeated over and over again, in an endless cycle of exile and return, bloodshed and violence and taking from those living there.

That god (the one bound in the book) is not my God. That covenant is not my covenant. I will not bind myself to that thing or lend my support to actions resulting from other people binding themselves to it. Freedom of religion is one thing, but allowing people to commit heinous acts because their religion demands it are two different things.

3) Israel's existence today is the fulfilment of prophecy

I'll take the odd position of saying yes, it is. Since actual Israel does not exist, since the Assyrian defeat of Israel, it is left to people of various ethnic backgrounds who over the centuries have chosen to bind themselves to that Torah. They had children, who had children, etc.

The god of Torah is still around as long as Torah is around. That god plans on global domination, as per the last chapter of Zechariah. He sits on Zion which has been raised up higher than before, and from there rules the whole world, demanding tribute(taxes) and worship from everyone on earth. Dreadful results for those who refuse.

That guy, that demander of worship and physical tribute is not my God.

The main point is this: If you claim that Torah's god = Paul's god = your god, then make the case from Paul to support the current Israel phenomenon as something he would also approve of.

reply to post by pthena


He doesn't need reconciliation, we do.

There's more going on in Israel than what we are shown in the media, i'm looking into whats going on using alternative channels.

reply to post by cloudyday

Thank you. Paul was engaged in an internal struggle(Jew living as a Gentile) as well as external(fighting for Gentile right to be free from Torah), it shows in his letters.

I take 1 Peter as a pseudepigrapha, probably written after the death of Peter and Paul. Probably written to seem to be a posthumous reconciliation between Peter and Paul teachings.

Now, speaking of John, a very key verse to remember is what is written as Jesus speaking to the Samaritan woman.

John 4:21 Jesus said to her, "“Woman, believe me, the hour comes, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, will you worship the Father. 22 You worship that which you don’t know. We worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to be his worshippers. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”"

As far as Gospel of John is concerned, mountains and temples have no relevance whatsoever. John doesn't seem to support Zionism.

reply to post by Awen24

1) Israel is God's Chosen People.

If you do a Bible word search for God's Chosen People, you come up with verses in:
Colossians, Titus, and 1 Peter.
These are all in the New Testament and not talking about fleshly Israel but Spiritual Israel, the church.

Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
Colossians 3:12

From Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ. I was sent to lead God's chosen people to faith and to the knowledge of the truth that leads to a godly life.
Titus 1:1

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
1 Peter 2:9
In the Old Testament you find the idea that God continues to choose and did not stop in one point in time long ago.

Your names will live on in the curse formulas of my chosen ones.
The sovereign Lord will kill you,
but he will give his servants another name.
Isaiah 65:15

reply to post by pthena


Interesting...

i'll give you a S&F just for claiming not to be christian anymore... that takes some sack as it is...

I really couldn't care less about Israel and whatever is happening over there now or in the future, so i really have nothin to add to your discussion...

Though i do have a question.... pretty much the same thing i ask everyone....

Why do you feel the need to label your beliefs?

You're pagan now... according to who? Christians? Is there a pagan church somewhere?

It seems to me that you've jumped out of the bonds of one belief and right into another...

reply to post by Akragon

Why do you feel the need to label your beliefs?

You're pagan now... according to who? Christians? Is there a pagan church somewhere?

It seems to me that you've jumped out of the bonds of one belief and right into another...

Labels are important in proclaiming what you are not. No where in the Bible is a Pagan commended for being a Pagan. That makes it plain that I seek no approval from the Bible.

According to my definition of Pagan. Rural, country, not Royally approved. In short "Home Grown" from my own garden.

What bonds would that be exactly?

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by Akragon

Why do you feel the need to label your beliefs?

You're pagan now... according to who? Christians? Is there a pagan church somewhere?

It seems to me that you've jumped out of the bonds of one belief and right into another...

Labels are important in proclaiming what you are not. No where in the Bible is a Pagan commended for being a Pagan. That makes it plain that I seek no approval from the Bible.

According to my definition of Pagan. Rural, country, not Royally approved. In short "Home Grown" from my own garden.

What bonds would that be exactly?

I really don't know... Pagan is a pretty broad term...

they don't really have a specific doctine to adhear to... do they?

I've always thought of a pagan as anyone who does not stick to Christian dogma... Or course that label comes from Christians as well...

I find labels just give others a reason to attack your beliefs.... IF you're Christian... athiests attack because of the silly superstious beliefs, and because they condem others... IF you're athiest, christians attack for not believing in God... if you're jewish... well good luck with that in any case

I have no need to label my beliefs, and i don't really understand the need for others to do so either unless you're supporting some belief that is associated with that label...

I support some christian beliefs, reject others... but i also support some gnostic beliefs, hindu beliefs, buddhist beliefs... and many others as well....

They are what they are.... and no label will confine them

of course you are not me either...

reply to post by the2ofusr1

I just remembered. It wasn't Bethany, but Bethel Bible Series. The Bethel Series - Blest To Be a Blessing. A two year program designed to be an intro. From looking at the home page, it looks to still be a class type program led by a teacher or pastor.

The name Blest To be a Blessing kind of gives it away. Basically that the Christian God intended for the World to be blessed. Starting with Abraham right down to Christ( the seed as mentioned in Galatians 3)

. 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,” 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brothers, speaking of human terms, though it is only a man’s covenant, yet when it has been confirmed, no one makes it void, or adds to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He doesn’t say, “To seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “To your seed,” which is Christ. 17 Now I say this. A covenant confirmed beforehand by God in Christ, the law, which came four hundred thirty years after, does not annul, so as to make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no more of promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by promise.
. . .
26 For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to promise.

I seriously doubt that Paul would have found any reason to cancel out what he wrote in Galatians.

reply to post by Akragon

I really don't know... Pagan is a pretty broad term...

Of course it's a broad term broski.

The term "pagan" means someone who doesn't adhere to one of the three "Abrahamic faiths".

I'm not going to type this all out again, my post concerning Romans 11:


www.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by cloudyday
I don't like the epistles written by Paul. I prefer the epistles of James, Peter, and John, because they seem less vitriolic. But I bet you are right that Paul would be opposed to Zionism. (Sorry, I can't contribute anything more useful to the discussion, but star and flag.)

Peter huh?

Well, do tell what 2 Peter 3:15-16 says will you?