Explain to me how Homosexuals are "born that way".

Originally posted by erwalker
Personally, I believe that sexual orientation is the product of both genetics and the environment. The only choice in the matter is whether or not one acts on their attraction.

yeah theres a few people a know that 'used' to be gay promiscuously as teens but they got religious (mormon, jw) and now have wives and kids, i know they're not totally faithful cause i seen them at the park cruising for tricks (its a small world?) but if you have a conversation with them like i've had on occasion, theres a total denial of being gay, i think in some homosexuals' mind they convince themselves that if they act man enough or don't have the full sexual intercourse (ie butt sex) they aren't "gay".

most recently, one of these fellas who cheat on his wife with seems like anything that MOVES,

told me you're only gay or homosexual if you're a "bottom".

we are born with a preference that develops and blossoms, and there's nothing innately dirty or corrupt with being gay, but i think what people aren't "born that way" with is being someone they're not... ie priests who are gay and usually even very homosexually active between each other at the monasteries even, yet preaching its wrong and you're going to hell etc - who are they (of all people, hypocrites), or anyone for the matter, to Judge?

reply to post by Lionhearte


It is a natural evolution of life within a crowded society: en.wikipedia.org...

The rats were placed in a Utopian setting (plenty of food and living space) only to F it up by overpopulation.

reply to post by Lionhearte


After reading your OP, I tried not to be offended but it didn't work. Your post was well-written and I truly believe that your intent was genuine curiosity, and not malevolent. The problem is not with your question, but the premise that your personal faith and belief structure is the only correct one and/or that it is a universal "truth"; it is not.

Obviously, you are a devout Christian, and that's cool. But like so many other "devout" Christians, your indoctrinated belief structure and sense of righteousness reveals your true nature, and that is contempt and inappropriate pity for those who do not share your beliefs. Your comments also reveal a disturbing lack of understanding of even the most basic genetic concepts; another all-too-common "symptom" of the fundamentalist Christian. (Hmm, I wonder, is Christianity genetic?...)

The Bible is a book written by man. Many of them, in fact. It wasn't written by Jesus or "God". Consider, also, that the version that contemporary Christianity uses is a translation of a translation of a translation of a translation. (There are probably a few more layers of translation, but I'll limit it for the sake of brevity.) What do you think the chances are that the book you're holding today accurately reflects the original? What do you think the chances are that the book your holding today wasn't influenced by the interpretations of the various translators, as well as existing politics at the time of those translations? Don't get me wrong... The Bible is a good book and has something to teach. The fatal flaw is in taking every passage literally instead of taking a step back and asking yourself, in the context of a benevolent and loving God, what the lessons are.

Humans have a natural tenancy to categorize and apply labels to anything and everything this world has to offer. Sometimes that is a very positive trait (i.e. we are exceptional pattern detectors), but sometimes it's not so good. When we label something, or someone, we are essentially saying that we know all there is to know about that thing or person. Labeling is a form a judgment, and I'm sure you know what the Bible says about one man standing in judgment of another. Labeling something as "sin" is another dangerous form of labeling/judging. The 5th or 6th commandment (depending on which version you prefer) is "Thou shalt not kill". That seems pretty simple, cut and dry. But is it? What if someone is trying to kill you or your family? Do you not have the right, and even the obligation to save yourself and/or the lives of your family? Most people, and the laws of most lands say you do. After all, the Bible tells us that ALL life in this world is precious and a gift from God (this can be seen prominently in the Catholic belief that suicide is a sin for which the doer will go straight to hell without question, for there is no opportunity for confession and repentance). But the Bible also tells us to "turn the other cheek" when attacked. Seems a little contradictory, doesn't it? My point is that strictly adhering to the literal writings of the Bible results in missing the entire meaning.

As for your genetics question, it's a moot point in the context of your own beliefs. I am well aware of how the religious community feels about science, especially the science of genetics. And that is really an entire discussion on its own. If you truly want an answer as to the root origin of homosexuality in humans, I'm afraid there are not yet any definitive answers (nothing we can slap a label on). But it's worth mentioning that homosexuality is not a human phenomenon; over 1500 different species, aside from humans, practice homosexuality (see www.news-medical.net... for a summery). In my mind, the reason(s) behind homosexuality are not important. What IS important is that homosexuals are just as valid, just as divine, and just as human as anyone else, and are therefore deserving of the same respect and measure of worth as anyone else. It's not "us and them", it's just us.

Personnally I don't know much about the whole argument about being born gay or not. My problem is that when any group trys to force an agenda such as gay marriage on society, it only shows how much power special interest groups have in our country. My personal belief says marriage is a bond between man and woman. The whole idea of gay marriage goes against everything that is taught in the holy bible and that's good enough for me.

The other issue no one wants to bring up is the fact that it was indeed the gay lifestyle that inflicted aids upon the world and that's a lasting legacy they will never live down. Many innocent people were killed by receiving tainted blood and the results were disasterous.

reply to post by lme7898354

AIDS was started in Africa, by people who ate meat of a monkey’s that had the disease and it made the crossover to the human population. The analogy that gay people were responsible for the AIDS pandemic is insulting and just down right wrong. It is like saying that heterosexual people are responsible for the Syphilis epidemic as it was straight men who had sex with a sheep that spread it to the rest of the world. There is a bad pandemic and it covers both male and female, not just gay men, but all of humanity. Thousands of women and men are infected with this horrible disease, and in Africa, it seems to be growing by leaps and bounds, and the root cause is not just due to gay sex or gay men. It does not explain how it expanded so quickly on the African continent, where in some countries, being gay is equal to prison or a death sentence.

The entire gay marriage issue is that of equal rights under the law, nothing more nothing less. Would you deny a group of people the right to enjoy the same benefits as the rest of the population? After all the US was started due to a lack of rights and benefits as was enjoyed by the majority of the English, the civil rights movement was started due to one group being treated as second class citizens. Is it any wonder that gay people want the same right as everyone else in the country or world?

The marriage issue is one that is complex and diverse with all sorts of challenges along the way. But beyond that the original topic was on how gay people were born that way. The answer is in the science and the part of the body that dictates who we are attracted to and what a person finds as being attractive. So far it is a promising field of research, one that shows how the human mind, combined with genetics and the senses all seem to operate to where a person can be attracted to one type or person and not another.

Man asks woman out .. she says no
Man asks woman out .. she says no
Man asks woman out .. she says no
Man asks woman out .. she says no
Man asks woman out .. she says no


Finally ..

Man asks Man out .. Gay is born.

homosexuality is a CHOICE .. not being born that way.

Homosexuality DOES NOT perpetuate the human race...

Originally posted by lme7898354
Personnally I don't know much about the whole argument about being born gay or not. My problem is that when any group trys to force an agenda such as gay marriage on society, it only shows how much power special interest groups have in our country.

So blacks should still ride in the back of the bus?

Race equality was forced on society. Race equality is a powerful special interest group.

reply to post by Annee


Lets not lose focus on the topic.

Both gay rights and black rights are both pimped out to win votes for Democrats..Everyone knows this.

As far as gay rights being shoved in our faces .. I agree that it is. Just look at TV today .. it is vilifying gayness ... as normal, and its not.

I have a young son, and I don't want him exposed to a lifestyle that is immoral and disgusting.

Originally posted by PvtHudson
a lifestyle that is immoral and disgusting.

I understand that you think it's disgusting. That probably means you're not gay. But, how is it immoral or unethical. Who's getting hurt in this relationship and how?

Originally posted by PvtHudson
reply to post by Annee

 

Lets not lose focus on the topic.

Both gay rights and black rights are both pimped out to win votes for Democrats..Everyone knows this.

As far as gay rights being shoved in our faces .. I agree that it is. Just look at TV today .. it is vilifying gayness ... as normal, and its not.

I have a young son, and I don't want him exposed to a lifestyle that is immoral and disgusting.

I am not losing focus on the topic.

Equality is Equality. It doesn't matter if its race or sexual orientation.

Nothing is being shoved in your face. If anything its the reverse. Heterosexuality is being shoved in the face of homosexuals.

There is nothing immoral or disgusting about being homosexual. Irrational Man Made fears are what is immoral and disgusting.

You shoving your Irrational Man Made fears unto your son is immoral and disgusting.

Homosexuality is a natural born orientation. What the hell is a Lifestyle?

Gay “lifestyle”? What the hell does that mean?

While I’m a heterosexual female (who finds women far more beautiful than men - go figure), I have always found the term “gay lifestyle” highly offensive. How is being gay a lifestyle? People have active lifetyles, sedentary lifestyles, culinary lifestyles, etc., but in my mind being gay is not a lifestyle. You cannot control your sexual orientation, nor should you have to. One cannot help being gay any more than one has any say in the colour of his/her eyes. dragonfliesandcoffee.tumblr.com...

reply to post by Lionhearte


first; which God do you speak of and who are you to speak for God? you argument has no real basis it is only your opinion. a quick search on the internet will give you all the information you need to know but you refuse to believe.

I hear you OP but I have to say...

I watched a program on National Geograpic TV two nights about about Transgenders.

Totally changed my mind. To say.. At least "some" are definitely born that way.

Check out the show/program and tell me/us what you think then.

Honest to pete.. my wife and I talked about it the next day.... I can honesly say... I hope them all happiness and they should be greatful the were born "today" in a country that has become so tolerant.

Originally posted by BiggerPicture
dextrous preference is wired in the brain at birth,

so is innate sexual preference (to blossom by puberty)

its sad who we are attracted is determined by whats between their shoulders and legs and whats not,

instead of solely whats between their ears and deep in their heart!

it's even more sad 9/10 prefer the opposite sex with ginormous human carbon footprint & population explosion.

too bad the ratios don't lean more toward the middle, then we wouldnt overpopulate ourselves into anywhere as much crowding, violence, pollution, disease, endless wars, famine.

Violence is not conducive to heterosexuals alone, the majority of those in the "gay community" are not pacifists either. Pollution, disease, wars, famine....really?! Insinuate that all these mentioned are the by-product of heterosexuals, why? Are they responsible for population control or is it more likely that the government has that covered already?
And by the way ANNEE, there is no "equality". Nor is there "freedom of speech", nor "unconditional love".
Gay people were not born gay, gay is nothing more than sexual attraction to the same gender. Who here was born with a sexual attraction? Who here was sexually attracted to their own gender at the age of five years old? When do people get the idea that they were "born this way", I certainly hope it wasn't because of Lady Gaga.

Originally posted by PvtHudson
reply to post by Annee

 

Lets not lose focus on the topic.

Both gay rights and black rights are both pimped out to win votes for Democrats..Everyone knows this.

As far as gay rights being shoved in our faces .. I agree that it is. Just look at TV today .. it is vilifying gayness ... as normal, and its not.

I have a young son, and I don't want him exposed to a lifestyle that is immoral and disgusting.

I'm sorry, but I'm butting in here for a second.

First of all, your opinion of someone else's lifestyle is personal and subjective. It is immoral and disgusting because you personally feel that way. Just because others may agree with you, doesn't mean that is what it is. White supremacists truly believed they were doing the world good by promoting ideals to keep bloodlines "pure", which is disgusting and vile, in my opinion and the opinions of others, even though they believed that they were doing a service to others, engaging in a "moral" act to "help" society. However, we still call it hate, right? I've used that example to highlight that morality is a slippery slope, To believe oneself to be moral and uphold those morals and the morals of society because it's "right", sometimes means hurting innocent people in order to prove a point.

Morality is not objective, morality is always subjective, because someone will always fall outside of others' perception of what is right and wrong, and right and wrong are always biased. Just like killing people in a religious war seems to me to be the epitome of ridiculousness, the very devout will say that they had a moral obligation to God. Well, the other side says the same thing. Do you see what I mean?

Second of all, that aside, I have never seen, on regular television, any gay act that could be construed as lewd behavior. In fact, more sexuality is promoted on television between heterosexuals than homosexuals. However, there have been quite a few "girl-on-girl" kissing scenes on various shows, but the thing with that is, I'm sure most men that abhor homosexuality would never leave the room when a bit of girl action was going on. That is the biggest, THE BIGGEST double standard in society today. Porn with lesbians is fine, love between two men is abominable. I'm not saying that you feel that way, but quite frankly, I don't know of many men who would disagree with me. HOwever, this does seem to change when so-called "butch" lesbians are involved, for whatever reason.

Overall, television has really gotten away with quite a bit in the past decade, as far as what they show and discuss on prime time television without having to change ratings, and it almost never has anything to do with homosexuals. The Super Bowl commercials this year alone were enough to make me concerned about what my children were watching; it was inappropriate for a "family" game. Before that, around Christmastime, my 10-year-old daughter was blasted by Victoria's Secret commercials; every commercial break women were running around in panties and cupping their breasts. This bothered me, call me a prude if you want, but I do not want my daughter to feel like she needs to idolize or emulate Victoria's Secret models. However, I do not call the models out as immoral and disgusting. They're doing a job and frankly, I applaud them for having the nerve to do it. My point here is that we all make judgments, but none of us are perfect. The best lesson you can teach your son is one of tolerance and respect for the choices of individuals that aren't hurtful to anyone else.

Lastly, when we do see homosexuals on television or movies or in public, they are not "pushing their agenda", they're just not hiding who they are anymore. When they rally for rights, they are using what the constitution has guaranteed them. Frankly, when it comes to gay marriage, why are all of these Americans up-in-arms about the sanctity of marriage when no one has thought it to be that sacred. High divorce rates, spousal abuse, infidelity, etc., point to the fact that us heterosexuals don't have a great track record. How can we defy such a sacred union in the eyes of God, yet determine who can't enter in to it because it's immoral and wrong? People are really good at pointing their moral compasses in one direction and running in the other while no one's looking. Why in the hell is the government involved in the first place when there is supposed to be, LEGALLY, a separation of church and state? If lawmakers won't approve gay marriage because it's wrong and against God, why in the world is this being allowed from a legal standpoint?

Can someone please tell me how it is that there are homosexual babies, since they were "born that way"? Is there any way that people can prove that toddlers have a sexual attraction to their own genders? Is everyone born automatically knowing about sex, that before anything else we know which gender of folk we are sexually attracted to? On average, how old are children when they learn about sex?
What about people who are celibate, were they born that way or will something terrible happen to them because they aren't getting any "satisfaction"?

Originally posted by Wonders
Can someone please tell me how it is that there are homosexual babies, since they were "born that way"? Is there any way that people can prove that toddlers have a sexual attraction to their own genders? Is everyone born automatically knowing about sex, that before anything else we know which gender of folk we are sexually attracted to? On average, how old are children when they learn about sex?
What about people who are celibate, were they born that way or will something terrible happen to them because they aren't getting any "satisfaction"?

You bring up good points, so I will give you answers that are the official answers that are included in human sexuality texts and human development classes happening at this very moment. Children are obviously not sexual as babies and toddlers. However, it does not mean they are not wired for sexuality. Just as bald babies grow hair, people will develop sexual interests, both innate (like masturbation) and learned (pornography). Very young children actually do maturbate, but not in the way we think of as adults; there isn't any sort of outside stimulus involved. Even male babies get erections that aren't sexual, but they do happen and they don't hate it. As children get older, by ages 4-6, their sexual identity is already set in place, even before their gender identity is. I know these two sound the same, but they are not. While gender identity can be shaped by society and can be quite fluid, sexual identity is pretty set early-on. This is part of the biological process. The only exception to this, generally, is when a child is molested by someone of the same sex. This isn't always men & boys, by the way, it goes for women and girls, too, but is statistically less likely to occur. Still, many times, molested children do not later in life exhibit homosexual tendencies, it doesn't always matter, it is only more likely.

The only things really "learned" by children are inappropriate and appropriate behaviors towards sex, taught on purpose or through social conditioning, by parents, adults, or peers. Until they understand that some things are considered "wrong" or "normal", do they form actual opinions, resulting in learned behaviors, but still, they usually just incorporate those thought patterns into their individual sexual identity.

As far as celibacy, celibacy shouldn't be confused with asexuality. People can, indeed, be asexual, but it is rare. Celibacy is more common and involves the conscious decision to abstain from sex. However, some consider celibacy to be total refrain from all sexual acts, such as masturbation or oral sex, but others only refrain from actual sex acts with others, yet will masturbate. Usually, celibacy becomes a choice when one has been sexually assaulted or violated in some way, or because of religion, or even because of the treatment of a sexual addiction, or even because of disease.

Originally posted by mountaingirl1111

I'm sorry, but I'm butting in here for a second.

Please - - butt into any of my posts/discussions any time.

This is not a "fight" to fight alone.

Annee

Originally posted by Lionhearte

So, LGBTs and LGBT defenders, please answer this for me - where does the gene come from that makes a homosexual "born that way"?

I don't know that anyone ever said there was a "gay gene".

Recent studies do show that homosexuality most likely comes physically through the mother.

There is information emerging - - - unfortunately funding for these studies is not a priority.

n/m

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Lionhearte

So, LGBTs and LGBT defenders, please answer this for me - where does the gene come from that makes a homosexual "born that way"?

I don't know that anyone ever said there was a "gay gene".

Recent studies do show that homosexuality most likely comes physically through the mother.

There is information emerging - - - unfortunately funding for these studies is not a priority.

Right... It's not genetic. Sexual preference and gender tendancies are developed in the womb and are driectly related to hormone levels at certain times during the gestation period.