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Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy
I just got done reading Jean-Paul Sartre's philosophy on free-will, and would like to open a discussion on it.
Basically, for those unfamiliar with his existential philosophy, he says that Determinism is impossible because existence precedes essence. In other words, man must exist first in order to give meaning (essence) to his existence, therefore......… .........
Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy
It means that, first of all, man exists... and, only afterwards, defines himself.
Originally posted by SolidFaith
reply to post by LifeIsEnergy
I think that's fair and certainly could be a dilemma in that proposed statement as everything boils down to something we can easily connect it with that of an outcome. Though it seems that stimuli would change the factors of free will as you said in that these small implants into our knowledge base would shape our actions and then become that of predestined actions. So then for it to be that of free will we would necessarily have to limit the amount of stimuli on us; but in our current generation that is not as feasible as it once was. Though eturning to that of the proposed question in your OP I think perhaps this could go in line with the last few sentences?
"there surely is an external nature, yet it is man's free choice to view it as he sees fit. Therefore, even though nature may influence his "invention" of self, ultimately it is his choice to choose how it influences him. "
I feel like I have made a very weak connection though and really would like to expand upon it yet I just need to know if this is even going in the right direction or if somehow I slipped off because of the few tangents I was making previously. This all speaking primarily of the quote of course.
Originally posted by NewAgeMan
I think that man's compulsion to continually redefine himself from nothing and in the space of nothing (unconditioned ground of being) can only lead in one of two directions; either into a persistent indentification and re-identifaction with an increasingly inauthentic self and way of being, or, with an increasingly authentic one or one that is ever more in alignment with the truth self as we really are (true nature). That is to say, once we realize or recognize that who and what we are being, at any given moment, is simply a product of our OWN creation, are we at last set free to be ourselves as we are, playing whatever role.
In this awareness, the anxiety implicit in Sartre's conclusion as to our fundamental predicament (having no nature in a purposeless and meaningless universe, compelled by freedom to "be someone") is immediately resolved satisfactorily, and not without a sigh and a brief chuckle at our own expense.
With/in the prior, already always condition of absolute freedom (prior freedom) in absolute acceptance as we are, we are not lost in a meaningless absurdity, helpless but to compulsively and forever try to re-identify our self, something which by its very nature is inauthentic to begin with!!
The only question that arises now, if we are to make an honest inquiry is - if we are not nothing, and life purposeful instead of meaningless, then just who and what ARE we as this one who has a changeable, "add-to-able" self - who and what is THAT person?
This is a similar state of uncertainty or unknowing, but with the arrow pointing inwards like a finger to the sacred heart (and with a big smile too!).
We don't and can't know who we are, but knowing this, and getting present to it, without fear or reservation, brings its own kind of knowledge, as the knowledge of experience. It is the knowledge of the humor of self-awareness laughing at the notion that we once presumed to know with absolute certainty, just who and what we were and what compelled us (as if to no end.).
So it (the occurance of life) is not absurd and meaningless - we were!
Now then we are free to re-indentify, in whatever way we wish, no longer compelled by "freedom" which is no freedom at all, but in fact set free for its own sake (value, substance, essence, nature) and that's real freedom, and in that kind of freedom, only, resides the possibility of real life (to the full), along with the capacity to really love, both ourselves, and others (as self) - AUTHENTICALLY, or genuinely (wholeheartedly).
I am, therefore I feel.
"Oh what is man that thou art mindful of him?"
That is to say, once we realize or recognize that who and what we are being, at any given moment, is simply a product of our OWN creation, are we at last set free to be ourselves as we are, playing whatever role.
Originally posted by circlemaker
Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy
It means that, first of all, man exists... and, only afterwards, defines himself.
Similar to my thinking. First there's existence, then there's the question of where it came from.
I came to the conclusion while thinking about the relationship between time and energy. We can't even ask the question of "where did energy come from?" until there's time (division). It's a bit of a trick question since energy existed before the question could even be asked.
Replace energy with "god", "timelessness", "infinity", "zero", or "self-awareness" and the same concept applies. It may be better to phrase timeless energy as "potential energy" though (just playing semantics with myself before someone else does, heh).
Originally posted by NewAgeMan
What Sartre is suggesting is that man, in his freedom, standing in the domain of absolute uncertainty (indeterminism), cannot realize or experience his own true nature as he is, and is thus compelled to continually re-identify himself with a projection of some kind or a mental model of who he takes himself to be, and then at some point recognizing that this is not and cannot be his true nature, once again, again and again he then creates and indentifies himself with self after self ad infinitum in pursuit of his true self and thus his true nature which cannot ever be known as it is.
If Sartre is serious about this, and don't get me wrong, I'm impressed with his line of inquiry because the sate of absolute uncertainty is a very high state of awareness, when one is not wholly identified with a manufactured and therefore unauthentic or unreal self, if he himself ie: his true nature and authentic, non-particularized self, is unaware of the deep humor or gnosis that this fundamental predicament automatically and inevitably evokes from the point of view of the true self or the true nature of the "known unknower" - then I simply cannot take him seriously mysefl, no matter how impressive or compelling are his assertions that I am nothing in a meaningless and purposeless universe.
No the domain of absolute freedom is itself our true nature as created beings made in the "image" or likeness (sameness) of God as a first/last cause (unconditioned ground of being) and as the very foundation of freedom we alaady find ourselves standing in! That is our true nature (nothing of everything), it's who and what we really are.
And it's FUNNY, because relative to that, everything else that is NOT real or inauthentic (identification with the created self) is by its very nature, absurd and ridiculous by comparison (not only meaningless but without substance or value) - and so there stands man, in his true nature, with his humor restored at last.
It cannot be achieved by pure "reasoning" alone, however, because it is the knowledge of experience this state of humor of the known unknower who knows.
It's hilarious, ridiculous, and absurd, but we're not, really, and neither is life itself, the true life as it is with we ourselves included deeply and instinsically ie: in at-one-ment of self acceptance, or at peace, resting in the all-in-all, without the need or compulsion to seek any other or new self other than that which we already are, as our true nature, what I would call child-of-God state (as created being IN creation, begotten of), because it involves an evolutionary principal of reintegration and wholeness, with integrity or a type of homecoming in self-discovery.
edit on 28-4-2012 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)