Veneration of the pagan sun god in the beast's mark vs God's mark and seal : powerful video sermon, page 8

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
reply to post by arpgme

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The idea of a savior - son of god - is WAY older than the story of Jesus... (Horus)

Within a few verses of humanity's first sin (creating the need to a redeemer/savior) described in Genesis chapter 3 we come across God's first promise indicating that the matter would be resolved

Considering this promise to man takes place while there is still but to people on the whole earth I would say that the idea of a savior was WAY BEFORE the Egyptian empire and their theology!

We know that The Bible was written LATER from those other religions. If a person makes up a religion today, they can just say "God said on the first day there would be a virgin savior", doesn't mean that it was said on day 1 by any being just because a book claims it.

You are filtering reality through The Bible, which is leading you to having inaccurate information.

reply to post by arpgme

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I did mention that for some of these attacks I would be merely defending them from a Christian perspective to show that the attacks don't in fact harm someone who already has belief that God is true to His word. We are going to come across these kinds of things every now and again, some kind of accusation against its legitimacy that we can not prove one way or another. The argument is that it was written down later than something else, we are told that before things were formally written down for generations the message was preserved in the Oral Tradition. Unless you can somehow prove evidence against the stories origins in the Oral history and how far back that goes then the argument falls away. Its the kind of thing you just clash shields against and move on to the next argument.

For a Christian's perspective on such things, we can not know one way or another. In this circumstance we would think of things that are indisputable in God's Word like fulfillment's of various prophecies marked up against the historical record. Many of these prophecies have such low chances of ever coming about randomly that you end up conceding that however wrote this clearly has the ability to be outside of the confines of time, to know the beginning from the end already. Yes, I am somewhat disappointed that I can not use every attack and flip it around against you, but hey, I am not good enough HAHA

I point of your attacks were to see if Christianity could survive or withstand them....I think this has been achieved

reply to post by arpgme

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I will have the answer for you tomorrow it involves showing you the correct understanding of 'Hell' which basically every church are in error of teaching based on the BS fear the catholic church likes to spread as well as their false teachings on the state of the dead which have spread to most other Christian churches which they can't back up with Bible scripture at all. If jmdewey60 can fill you in on this teaching before I can get to it tomorrow then he is welcome to go ahead.

A general post on some recommended lectures on the Book of Revelation which will help you understand the passages and some of the fulfillment of the prophecies already.

206 - The Revelation of Jesus Christ (introduction to Revelation)


210 The Beast from the bottomless pit
In chapter 11 of Revelation a beast arises out of the bottomless pit suggesting that form and structure have been added to a gospel of falsehood emanting out of the depths of the bottomless pit and threatening to rob the world of light. A detailed look at the French Revolution and its philosophy as it pertains to do the setting up of the new world order. This video portrays aspects of the kingdom of darkness which Satan wishes to establish on earth and exposes how this will directly impact on the lives of all living today. This video is foundational to understanding current world events.


218 - Two Beasts Become Friends
This is an expose of Revelation chapter 13 where the beast out of the sea and the beast out of the earth become friends, culminating in a new system of worship which honors the first beast. Clear evidence is provided as to the nature of these political powers, their aims, and objectives. Since the issue is a matter of life and death with eternal consequences, it is vital that we understand who these powers are.


219 - The Wine of Babylon
The Bible speaks about an end-time Babylon that would lead the whole world astray. The doctrines for this end-time power can be found in ancient Babylon. In this video, the ancient religion of Babylon and its origins are traced through historic time to the very time in which we live. It is clearly revealed how this ancient religion is alive and well in religious systems of our day, dressed in a garb to suitability camouflage it from the eyes of the casual observer.


220 - A Women Rides a Beast
Is an expose of Revelation 17 which describes a woman controlling a coalition of powers. The woman has the attributes of the mystery religion of Babylon, and entices the world to follow her precepts. A thorough exegesis is presented comparing the general views on this chapter with the realities of our present day. The chapter sets the stage for the final events in the conflict between good and evil.


222 - The Mystic realm of Death
Where do the dead go? What does the Bible teach on this issue? Is there a hell? Seven heavens? Life after death? Reincarnation? Are there ghosts? Does the Bible have anything to say about spiritism? Discover the true teachings of the Bible on this often misunderstood topic.


224 - That All May Be One
In an age of religious tolerance and ecumenism, old hatchets are being buried. Churches are reuniting that have long been separated on questions of doctrine. Are these developments based on Scriptures conformity or humanitarian principles? Is truth sacrificed for the sake of unity? Are we moving to an era of peace the Bible warns against? This lecture also looks at the philosophies of some prominent preachers, such as Robert Schuller, Billy Graham, and others. Who leads this ecumenical movement and what is its goal?


227- The Battle of the Giants
The great controversy between Christ and Satan throughout the ages as described in the book of Revelation 12 is presented. The hatred of Lucifer for God's Son, and for all who should follow His leadership has led to more bloodshed, pain, and suffering on this planet than many realize. The persecution of all who believed the Bible in the middle ages as well as the great final conflict that will come upon the earth are revealed in this lecture.


234- History's Coming Climax
The coming of Christ at the end of the age has been prophesied in the Bible and for centuries people have been awaiting this great event. What does the Bible really teach about the coming of Christ and how does it compare to the array of teachings abroad in the world today? Is there a secret rapture? What happens to the dead when Christ returns? These questions and more are answered in this eye-opening study, and God's final intervention in the affairs of men to vindicate those who have stood for truth and righteousness is clearly portrayed.


235 - The Long Awaited Millenium
The world is waiting for a millennium of peace in which Christ will set up His kingdom and all evil will cease. When will be the ushering in of the true millennium? What does the Bible really teach about the millennium in which the saints will judge the world? How does this compare with a world that is completely converted according to most current renditions on this subject? These and other issues are revealed.

reply to post by arpgme

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But, WHY do you choose it? Is it because you are scared of hell? Is it because of fear?

There are some expectations and responsibilities you have when you have already chosen to become a Christian but that's about it....before making that choice there is (for me personally) no sense of 'there is a gun to my head' but I could not say that for all 'Christians' though because I believe all other Christian denominations I am aware of (unless they are a smaller offshoot from Adventists) teach a continuous torment version of 'hell' where you actually never die (soul immortality but remain forever tortured (which definitely makes God look very bad in my books IF that were in fact the case). So your point is valid to make, what have they actually chosen and what are they running away from out of fear.
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The soul is not immortal according to the bible and never once describes it as so. For a Christian that should go a long way to ruling out 'reincarnation' as it is taught by other religions. The idea that you go to a good place or a bad place on the other side comes from the Osiris Cult ('Amduat' by Tutmose III). The bible describes the state someone enters when they die as a kind of 'unconscious sleep' where the dead 'know nothing' so this should rule out any practices that involves the consultation of dead ancestors (e.g the 'saints' as mediators for you in the R.C.C) because they aren't able to speak with you by the fallen angels are all too happy to impersonate them for you to start leading you down the wrong path. When someone dies they are essentially just 'sleeping' until either they are raised up again in the resurrection when the 'real' Jesus comes back or they remain still 'sleeping' until the Judgment takes places (which is 1000 years after the second coming of Jesus), so they are resurrected for this and made aware that from their life's record that the sentence is just. What takes place next is that they are basically erased from existence and never to be given another opportunity to live on again, that is it for them. The Bible however uses slightly more colorful language to get across the message that your soul is going to be completely annihilated just to convey the seriousness of it for you.

How long it takes for God to erase each person in the Judgment is based on their works (or what they have done in their lives). For people who have rejected following God but have been typical decent people they will be erased/destroy almost instantly, people who have been cruel to others or knowingly lead others astray then this process of destruction to completely cleanse the earth of all traces of sin will be longer for them. Essentially those in the Judgment should have nothing to fear.

The opportunity is given to replace the fallen angels that were thrown out of heaven in Lucifer's rebellion. This is how I described heaven in a previous post to you, "life in paradise forever, the place where there is no tears, no sickness, no death or discord. With Him there every power will be developed, every capability increased. The grandest enterprises will be carried forward, the loftiest aspirations will be reached, the highest ambitions realized. And still there will arise new heights to surmount, new wonders to admire, new truths to comprehend, fresh objects to call forth the powers of body and mind and soul". Also I should add that we will be able to travel the stars and visit all kinds of intelligent life on other planets.

So for me personally I see following God as not something I do out of fear (I have grown up in the SDA church and the fear from 'eternal torment' was never taught) but something I chose to do in following someone I trust that is looking out for the best for me in this life (even if sometimes the trials and experiences I go through to develop character may not be something I appreciate or understand at the time) and helping me ensure that I am with Him in the next life, which is what is most important to God. Despite being in the SDA church though all the time I would say that I didn't really decide to follow God until I was about 16 or 17, before then I would say that God/Jesus wasn't a particularly personal concept to me. Attending church was fine before that but I never felt any strong connection with God before that. It was only when I had been going through some difficult personal issues and seeking to know Jesus by reading the book 'The Desire of Ages' that I developed that personal connection to the Creator.

God says, I know what I am planning for you...I have good plans for you, not plans to hurt you. I will give you hope and a good future (Jeremiah 29:11)

reply to post by arpgme

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Here is the view I subscribe to of what this life is about for a person that has chosen to be a Christian. The text comes from the book by Rick Warren 'A Purpose Drive Life'. (I know some people here might have issues with somethings R. Warren has to say and I do as well but this part I think he describes well)

The Bible offers 3 metaphors that teach us God's view on life: Life is a test, life is a trust, life is a temporary assignment.

Life on earth is a test. As seen in the stories throughout the Bible, God continually tests people's character, faith, obedience, love, integrity and loyalty...Character is both developed and revealed by tests. You are always being tested. God constantly watches your response to people, problems, success, conflict, illness, disappointment, and even the weather! He even watches the simplest actions such as when you open the door for others, when you pick up a piece of rubbish or when you are polite towards a clerk or waitress. We don't know all the tests God will give you, but we can predict some of them, based on the Bible. You will be tested by major changes, delayed promises, impossible problems, unanswered prayers, undeserved criticism and even senseless tragedies. A very important test is how you act when you can't feel God's presence in your life.

Life on earth is a Trust. Our time on earth and our energy, intelligence, opportunities, relationships and resources are all gifts from God that he has entrusted to our care and management. God evaluates each one according to his responsibility and rewards them accordingly. Jesus said, From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. (2 Corinthians 4:18)

Life on this earth is just the dress rehearsal before the real production...Earth is the staging area, the preschool, the tryout for your life in eternity...This life is preparation for the next.

*If anyone whats to disagree with my assessment of Judgement and 'hell' I would suggest you read some of these links first (or else it will be the same case with all those trying to argue that the 10 commandments are no longer in place or the 4th commandment doesn't apply, you will find you have no leg to stand on)

- Everlasting Destruction? (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
- The Achilles Heel of the Eternal Torment Doctrine
- Revelation 14:11: Tormented forever?

reply to post by sacgamer25

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sacgamer25, I had a skim through chapter 8 and saw it was referenced to unfulfilled prophecies in the past that weren't made clear they were conditional but they evidently turned out to be. Here I am thinking about Jonah in chapter 3 and verse 4, 'And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.'

And Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, 'Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.'

So in the examples of both Jonah and Paul they have made calls that did not turn out to happen, Nineveh was not destroyed in 40 days time and Paul himself died before the second coming of Jesus yet made the call that 'we', inclusive of himself, would be around when this will occur.

Personally I thought the arguments were fairly weak and wished they were more clear cut. I tend to agree with you that it opens the door up for 'problem 4' that you describe. For a person who is a proponent that White's writings were inspired, is there enough evidence from the Bible to show this kind of unfilled call can happen, I would say probably but it is not a tidy case. If you were to dismiss her based on that alone then you would have to dismiss Jonah and Paul as prophets as well.

I can tell you, Jonah definitely wasn't happy when his call went unfulfilled... (Jonah 4:9) But God said to Jonah, "Do you have a right to be angry about the vine?" "I do," he said. "I am angry enough to die."

Just found a couple of pretty clear quotes from Rome themselves

"The Adventists are the only body of Christians with the Bible as their teacher, who could find no warrant in its pages for the change of day from the seventh to the first. Hence their appellation," Seventh-day Adventists. "They're cardinal principle consists in setting apart Saturday for the exclusive worship of God, in conformity with the positive command of God Himself, repeatedly reiterated in the sacred books of the Old and New testaments, literally kept by the children of Israel for thousands of years to this day, and endorsed by the teaching and practice of the Son of God while on earth." -Rome's Challenge, page two

"Is not yet too late for Protestants to redeem themselves. Will they do it?... will they indeed take the written word only, the Scripture alone, as their sole authority and their sole standard? Or will they still hold the indefensible, self contradictory, and suicidal doctrine and practice of following the authority of the Catholic church and wear the SIGN of her authority? Will they keep the Sabbath of the Lord, the seventh day, according to Scripture? Or will they keep the Sunday according to the tradition of the Catholic church, -Ibid, page 31

Website very worthwhile to have a good read through Rome's Challenge

reply to post by autowrench

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Sorry mate I haven't got round to the post on the Daniel 7 little horn/Re 13 sea beast power yet.

Most of the information I was going to summaries from this site where about 26 characteristics found through the bible verses presented are clearly outlined.

Exterminates 3 nations...Rome will concede to it...Political & religious in one...Will reside on 7 hills...Rules for 1260 years...Will receive mortal wound...Mortal wound will heal...Was, is not, yet is...Will blaspheme...Will expect worship...Dark Sentences...Says Jesus had not flesh...Craftiness and deceit...Preaches another Jesus...666 the number of a man...Will hate the Bible...Will kill Christians...All wonder after him...Will embrace Babylon...Will join with all kings...Will mock Jesus...No desire for women...Beast forces Christians into hiding for 1260 years...Will be a mother church...Try's changing times & law
I guess the most impressive of the prophecies to look at are the ones on:

Exterminating 3 nations, comes out of the Roman empire, main period of rule exactly 1260 years before its power comes to an end and then later restored, Changes times (calendar) and Laws, and resides of 7 hills.

Those factors alone are clearly spelled out and proved through the historical record. So I would ask you to take a look at that site and a few of those descriptions. Saves me from having to do a summary of it all and it still coming out to be 6+ posts in a row HAHA. So that would have been the gist of the post combined with some current Jesuit history (but I have already covered that aspect now in that new Ben Creme thread now) and I was going to find the audio excepts from ex-Illimani 'Svali' where she describes the human sacrifice initiation ceremony she was a part of which took place at the Vatican and another interview this time with the first born son of Anton Lavey who has become a Christian minister who describes some cross-collaborative dealings his dad had with the Catholic church. Would you be interested in listening to these audio interviews to hear that information?

I will take a stab at your questions, but I am no expert so I will need time to research them all.

Firstly though I need more information on where these '18 other Gods and two Goddesses in the Bible' are. You are going to have to show me what particular manuscript (bible translation/codex it is from). My hunch though would be something along the lines of being a part of a corrupted manuscript that was not part of the manuscripts used to form more trusted complete works

reply to post by autowrench

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I will be using research where I can from the study guides in my 'Andrews Study Bible'.

Why would Jesus say he was coming to bring not peace, but a sword? How does this fit with a nice rapture?
Why must one hate one's Father, Mother, and Children in order to follow Jesus? (Matthew 10:34-37)

In this passage Jesus seems to contradict his teachings on nonviolence and loving enemies and family. Rather than contradicting Himself, He is making two points: First, He is saying that the gospel at times engenders conflict because of deep differences and disagreements that arise by those that accept it and those that don't. Second, family and its place in society are redefined in its popular social understanding. The blood family is no longer at the top of the hierarchy in the setting of the gospel. Acceptance of and love for Jesus must be primary. To be sure the scripture teaches the importance of the family bond; but not at the expense of following Jesus. The sacred bonds of family provide no safe zone. Spouse and children are not eternally reliable.

Concerning the use of the word hate. In Jesus' world, overstatement was often used to emphasize a point. An attitude of hatred is not called for (see 6:27), but rather putting Jesus first, which risks the accusation of hating one's family. In Luke 6:27 we see what Jesus' attitude towards hate is, 'But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those that hate you'.

Why did God ordered killing of human beings? (Lev. 26:7-8, Num. 25:4-5)

Leviticus 26:7-8
These verses show chiefly that God would preserve them from those that wished to destroy them if they were obedient to God. Despite being outnumbered God would enable them to cause their enemies to be 'chased away' or 'give flight' from their midst. If who's against God's people wanted a battle though they God would deliver His people a victory by the sword if need be as well.

Numbers 25: 4-5
What is involved in these verses is Israelite men being lured to participate in sexual immorality and interaction with supernatural beings not from God. Balam encourage the Moabite women to seduce the Israelites (31:16) and had gone home after failing to curse Israel (24:25). However he returned to seek his fortune by saving Moab when he came up with the idea to use women to invite Israelites to sinful sacrificial feasts so they would participate in idolatry, forfeit their blessing, and then God himself would destroy them. Thus the younger generation would fall to the same snare or idolatry that had almost destroyed their parents (Exodus 32). The ringleaders amongst the Israelites were made examples of so as to not lead others into apostasy. This has treatment signified God's wrath against them and would root out the evil so that the whole nation would not be destroyed.

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- For the question on Jesus being tempted are you referring to Satan's three 'test' for Jesus after being in the wilderness for 40 days or something else?

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

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Firstly though I need more information on where these '18 other Gods and two Goddesses in the Bible' are.

Sure, here ya go....
The Gods Of The Bible
Here is more...
How many Gods are there?

I am aware you probably work, and don't have as much time as I to be on the Internet. So, thought I would help you out a little, here are some links that are researched out and proven to be true, and will enhance your knowledge on the Bible and Christianity, and most of all, on the one you call "God".

Cultic shrines from time of King David

At Least 43 Things God Hates

God's Mistakes (Yes, he made mistakes)

Top 40 JESUS COMMANDS

Christ, Constantine, Sol Invictus

20 Reasons to Abandon Christianity

A Different Story of the Annunaki (Creators of Humans)
These, if read, will tend to change your mind about some of the things you hold as truth. Blessing be with you.

reply to post by autowrench

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We are supposed to repent, but why did God often repent? (Ex. 32:14, 1 Sam. 15:35)

I have looked up other translations of the Ex. 32:14 and commentaries and an alternative word presented for 'repent' is 'relent'. Oh those commentaries that speak on what is meant by 'repent' here we see something along the lines of, meaning, 'changed His mind relative to His former intentions'.

Similar situation to the 1 Samuel 15:35 verse, other translations use words like 'regretted', 'was grieved'

Why did God sanction slavery? (Ex. 21:20-21, Deut. 15:17)

Here we see the laws concerning servants, although similar to other ancient laws, are unique in their combination of religious, ethical and social laws which are placed within the narrative. Freedom from slavery is a theme of the book of Exodus. Seen against this background where slavery was a cultural norm, God regulated it in order to give protection and eventually freedom to slaves.

Theses laws established the principles of the seventh-year release of male Hebrew debt slaves. Any person who could not pay a debt could pay back the debt by becoming a slave or giving a family member to pay off the debt. The laws protected against becoming a permanent slave (other than those women designated as a wife as opposed to female workers)

We are given regulations concerning violence against them:
- Ex 21:12 He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death. Slaves have protections and such harm means the actions against them can be legally avenged
- Exodus 21:16 Those that kidnap others to sell them into slavery will be put to death
- Verses 26, 27 concerns harm that results in permanent disfigurement is grounds for the slave to be set free. This severely limits physical violence as even having a tooth knocked out is grounds to be set free.

Obviously if the master is bashing the slave then the slave is going to be out of action to recover from any injuries which prevents them from being able to work which in turn is harmful for the master.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

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I have looked up other translations of the Ex. 32:14 and commentaries and an alternative word presented for 'repent' is 'relent'.

According to the Greek Old Testament, Septuagint, the word is:
ιλασθη ( ILASTHEH ), which is the:

Tense: Aorist
Voice: Passive
Mood: Indicative
Person: third
Number: Singular

of the word, ἱλάσκομαι (hilaskomai), to pardon.
Keeping in mind that the Septuagint definition is going to be different to the understanding of the word when used in the New Testament, hundreds of years later. An example would be Hebrews 2:17, where it is translated: to make atonement.

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)

reply to post by autowrench

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If God says no Gods before me, then why are there 18 other Gods and two Goddesses in the Bible?

The earliest God mentioned in your list in Exodus 6:3, Yahweh/Jehovah, and it is the only one mentioned by God to worship. The bible uses the vernacular of calling all the other 'beings' as gods/goddess because that is what the people thought them to be. When they sort out these 'beings' for some small-time (in the grand scheme of things) supernatural interventions which can be performed by the fallen angels then they simply considered them gods/goddesses because they were doing things beyond the realms of what mankind could do themselves. The bible is using a collective term 'gods' to designate those things, people or beings that you venerate for a particular ability they have when it is in fact God the Creator and the only true God who deserves veneration because He gave them that ability, they do not have the ability within their own power but only the power given to them by God.

Those first few verses in Genesis suggesting plurality is just referring to the angels in heaven that are also made in God's image and have the knowledge of both good and evil ect.

Why did God made false prophecies? (Jonah 3:4. Gen. 5:10)

I can not see what prophecy is present in the Genesis 5:10 verse so I will skip that and just comment on Jonah.

The story of Jonah is showing that God is a universal Judge and that all nations are accountable to Him. He is guarantor of a moral world order and if a nation trespasses the boundaries of good by doing evil, He intervenes. The book of Jonah reveals a God who intervenes in human affairs and cares about the nations.

In Jonah 3:2 we see that God tells Jonah to preach to Nineveh a message, not a prophecy. Perhaps God knew that if he just sent Jonah in to say 'repent or else you will be destroyed' he would have just got the same reception that Noah got back in his day with his 120 years of warnings! Instead of accusing the Ninevites of wrong and putting them in the frame of a defensive and resistant position of having to admit weakness to this one man, God simply wanted to get the message out that he would destroy them. If they did not recognize the God of Jonah then the warning would have been hollow, instead the threat of Jonah's God convicted them of their wrong ways and led them to repentance. What would be the point of God merely sending someone to deliver a message that they would be destroyed and that there was nothing they would do about it? If the Ninevites knew that it was a prophecy from God that would happen anyway they why would they bother to repent?

We find a consist approach to God in Jonah with other messengers of God, Jeremiah 18:7-10 and Amos 7:1-6. It is well understood of God changing His planned judgement in response to human pleas of repentance.

Jeremiah 18:7-10
King James Version (KJV)
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

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Similar situation to the 1 Samuel 15:35 verse, other translations use words like 'regretted', 'was grieved'

In the Greek O.T., the word is, μετεμεληθη, which is the aorist form of μεταμελέω.
Not a word found in the N.T.
Main definition is: repent, but depending on the usage, could mean, to be sorry that.
That would be when it is combined with, ὅτι, which is what we find in this particular verse.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

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I beg to differ. I call into question First Samuel 28:3-15:
Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land... When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. He inquired of the Lord, but the Lord did not answer him...

"Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her."
"There is one in Endor," they said.

So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman.

"Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name." But the woman said to him, "Surely you know what Saul has done... Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?"

Saul swore to her by the Lord, "As surely as the Lord lives, you will not be punished for this." Then the woman asked, "Whom shall I bring up for you?"
"Bring up Samuel," he said.

When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"
The king said to her, "Don't be afraid, what do you see?"
The woman said, "I see a spirit coming up out of the ground."
"What does he look like?" he asked.
"An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"

If Samuel's Soul was not Immortal, then it could not have appeared to Saul. So right here, the OT supports that the Soul is in fact Immortal.

The Human Soul is wholly composed of Energy. If any of you know a way to destroy energy, please post just how this is done.

I am one who might be called "medium," in that I have been seeing dead people for most of my life. In hospitals, nursing homes, places where people go to die, and other places too, in homes where someone died. Now before your mind goes to the old, "it's demons," do a little research on the Ghosts of Gettysburg. If you are about to tell me that Demons have nothing better to do than pose as dying and bleeding men, screaming in pain, then something is wrong here. As for relatives, I have seen both my Grandfather, and my Real Father, whom I never knew in life, and both appeared in full apparition, and others saw them. As for friends, I have seen two. As for other Ghosts, I have seen too many to count.

I know Christianity teaches that the Soul is not Immortal, and that the Soul can be destroyed. They teach this for good reason, if everyone knew in their heart that they were an Immortal Soul, they would not need the Church anymore, would they?

reply to post by autowrench

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I am here to say that you either take all of the bible all nothing at all. If you pick and choose what you like you will always end up with theological errors. I will display this perfectly through analysis of this passage that you have chosen.

Firstly I need to clear one thing up in your understanding of what I said. In no place whatsoever do I say that God destroys/annihilates/erases your soul (if you are 'wicked'/not in the 'book of life') when you die. Did I not make it clear that God will erase the souls of the wicked at Judgment which is still yet to occur? We still need to go through the great end times deception of Satan first, then the real second coming of Christ, then the 1000 years up in heaven, then we finally coming back down to Earth where we see God awaken the dead 'wicked' from their sleep and then give them their Judgment which will THEN result in their soul/spirit being erased from existence. I have no idea where you came up with the assumption that I advocated destruction of soul at point of first death. Knowing this we can see that Samuel's soul is not destroyed yet and wouldn't be destroyed anyway because he will be in the resurrection of those in Christ.

Secondly, Samuel never appeared to Saul. The supposed spirit of Saul appeared to the witch alone (despite being right next to each other) Saul saw nothing.
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Now before we get into the passage proper we need to establish proper context and include some other passages to make things clear (because you are clearly dismissing elements of assumed knowledge).

Background Information:

- 1 Samuel 15:26 - 'And Samuel said to Saul, I will not return with you: for you have rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD has rejected you from being king over Israel.'

Samuel is telling Saul he will not go to him again....so why would Samuel then decide to appear to Saul?

1 Samuel 15:35 'Until the day Samuel died, he did not go to see Saul again...'

- In verse 6 of the chapter 28 passage God is telling Saul that God has decided never to speak to Saul again because of his rebellion; not through dreams, through the Urim (a stone which God used to help the priests make decisions make decisions), nor "by the prophets". So for the manifestation to be Samuel the prophet it would have to contradict the background context that God is giving to the story that he would not receive any revelations from the prophets. Really, the writer of the story would have to be idiotic to include that statement if in fact the writer was trying to get across that Saul communicated with the real Samuel.

- We are reminded in 28:3 that Samuel is in fact dead even though we are already told this in chapter 25. Why does the writer feel the need to repeat this? Perhaps to refresh in our minds what in fact the state of the dead is:

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Isaiah 26:14 'They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise...'

Psalms 115:17 'The dead cannot sing praises to the LORD, for they have gone into the silence of the grave.'

Psalms 146:4 'When they breathe their last breath, they return to the ground. In that very day his thoughts perish.'

Job 14:12 'so man lies down and does not rise...men will not awake or be roused from their sleep.'

- In 1 Samuel 16:14 we are told ,'The spirit of the LORD departed from Saul and was replaced by an evil spirit'. We also know from 1 Peter 5:8 that evil spirits are around to watch our every move and thus they would have known that the LORD had left him.

reply to post by autowrench

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Necessary background information completed, now onto the crucial verses proper-

source: www.biblicalproportions.com...
1 Samuel 28:13: 'And the king [4428] said [0559] unto her, Be not afraid: [3372] for what sawest [7200] thou? And the woman [0802] said [0559] unto Saul, [7586] I saw [7200] gods [0430] ascending [5927] out of the earth. [0776]'

I think this calls for a bit of an investigation of what these 'gods' coming up from out of the earth are don't you, as this seems a bit different than merely a spirit or soul of a human being huh?

Gods - אלהים 'ĕlohı̂ym is here used in a general sense of a supernatural appearance, often used to describe a divine being and can be used to describe an angel.

First she see what appears to be a supernatural angelic being coming up from down below (hmm, doesn't this sound awfully like the fallen angels who dwell in the earth?) and then the being comes with a mantel/robe which is the chief thing used to identify it. So you think that when someone dies they take their clothes with them into another dimension???

Verse 14, '...and Saul perceived it was Samuel...' according to King James derived translation, not 'knew' it to be Samuel.

Have I cleared up your misunderstanding of the verse yet or do you think that as soon as we die we become angelic beings who dwell inside the earth just like the fallen angels?

Why was this 'ĕlohı̂ym able to give a correct forecast of what would be Saul's fate? Well the devil knew that God's protection had left Saul and he could destroy Saul any which way he wished (just like he did to Job's family) so it wasn't much of a prophecy. With the words this being spoke to Saul though all they did was dishearten him and this culminated in Saul actually committing suicide. I wonder what the bible has to say about one killing themselves. If you really believe that when one dies they instantly become an angelic being then I guess this life now has no use and you might as well quicken the process up.

1 Chronicles 10:13 'So Saul died for his breach of faith. He broke faith with the LORD in that he did not keep the command of the LORD, and also consulted a medium, seeking guidance.'
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Seeing that the fate of the fallen angels is already sealed, that they know that God is going to erase them from existence, they actually have nothing better to do than deceive as many people as they can to be destroyed along with them. If you actually believe the witch of Endor story that it was Samuel but he was an angelic like being coming up out of the earth then why would there be such things as the Ghosts of Gettysburg, should they not already be immortal angels having their fun already! I think you have got confused with proper biblical teaching of when we are told God will come to erase the souls of the 'wicked' and once again more BS catholic teaching of when you die you either instantly go to heaven or the fiery hell forever for torment. If you know your bible then you know that the Catholic church teaching which has invaded much of other protestant teaching is not in fact in line with scripture.

The fallen angels can manifest themselves to minds of just one person in a group of people or they can present themselves visibly to everyone in the vicinity at once (like how others saw the full apparitions of the 'supposed' ancestors too). Why is it that 'Samuel' only presented himself to the medium and that Saul could not in fact seeing anything, what would be the incentive behind that?
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So yes, I still stand by what I said....I have no negative compulsion pushing me towards Christianity because I know the Bible. Anyone who argues to you that you should become Christian so you don't burn in hell forever is just an idiot and is not doing the character of Jesus any service.

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I HAVE A CHALLENGE FOR YOU ---
I have just thought of this. It is my contention that the ability to perform magika involves some degree of possession right. It is also my understanding that being involved in various occult rituals also invites demonic spirits into you. You have probably be involved in some rituals in the Golden Dawn and O.T.O and Wicca. This challenge will settle a very important question. It will settle the question whether the fallen angels exist, if Jesus is real, and whether all the 'ancient knowledge' has developed any innate abilities (ESP, other magika ect) or whether they comes from those spirits only.

This is the challenge....go to someone credible and thorough and get an exorcism. I don't know much about the lay of the land over there in America but I have seen many exorcisms performed by one very good guy called Bob Larson (you can look him up on youtube). I would say do a personal consult with him and he will go through your entire history. If you are correct then you have nothing to worry about right, because the fallen angels are made up BS, Jesus doesn't exist and the knowledge harnessed from ancient religion (i.e Egyptian or whatever) is real. If on the other hand I am correct (even if you only partially believe in the process) then Bob Larson will at least be able to bring up one of these beings that may have found a home inside you and he will be able to talk to it and you can even see it captured on camera. If I am correct then you will have a real experience of the power of the LIVING God of the Universe as Bob will call whatever beings there are out of you in His name. It would also give you tremendous credibility to all those here if you did this and still came out the other side saying the same thing.

Note though, if you think this challenge a half decent idea and I am correct that there may involve some activity of possession in your life then definitely then Luci's mates won't like this idea at all and will try influence your thoughts away from it as much as possible.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

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The earliest God mentioned in your list in Exodus 6:3, Yahweh/Jehovah, and it is the only one mentioned by God to worship.

Clearly two different entities. I have clearly shown who and what Yahweh was, and Jehovah is said to hail from the Pleiadies System. That makes perfect sense too, for the Pleiadian and Draconian Races have been at war for thousands, maybe even millions of years. Check your U2s

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