Veneration of the pagan sun god in the beast's mark vs God's mark and seal : powerful video sermon

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posted on May, 8 2012 @ 01:23 AM
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reply to post by JesuitGarlic
 




Revelation 7:3 "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God."


God's seal is his Holy Spirit, a seal that can only be received by faith in Christ and the promised Holy Spirit, not by observing law.



John 6:27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval." 28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

1Cor. 9:1 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord? 2Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

2Cor. 1:21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Eph. 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession --to the praise of his glory.

Eph. 4:29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
(Eph. 5) 1Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children 2and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

2Tim. 2:19 Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."



Have you believed in the son, turned away from wickedness and been baptized by the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit is the seal of the new covenant. The Sabbath was a shadow of the true Sabbath rest found in Christ.

Hebrews 4 explains the true Sabbath rest found in Christ.




Hebrews 4:1-11

God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. 2 For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. 3 For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said,

“In my anger I took an oath:
‘They will never enter my place of rest,’"

even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. 4 We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” 5 But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.”

6 So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. 7 So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted:

“Today when you hear his voice,
don’t harden your hearts.”

8 Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. 9 So there is a special rest[f] still waiting for the people of God. 10 For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. 11 So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall.


Today is the day to enter into his rest. Do you believe the scripture? All scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit, the very spirit of our lord Christ Jesus. Listen to the Holy Spirit in you and obey God and today you will enter his rest.

Hopefully this clears a few things up for you.




posted on May, 8 2012 @ 03:40 AM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 


Please tell me where in scripture God tells us how we show to Him that we have faith in Christ in order to receive the Holy Spirit?

Can you tell me what God's mark is?

May I ask which denomination you are from.

You do realize that keeping the Sabbath was included in the new covenant obligations in order to receive the Holy Spirit as per Isaiah 56:6,7 and Isaiah 58:13,14

Isaiah 56:6,7 And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant--these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations."

Isaiah 58:13,14
"If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the LORD's holy day honorable, and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words, then you will find your joy in the LORD, and I will cause you to ride on the heights of the land and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob." The mouth of the LORD has spoken.

How can you even judge what wickedness is if you say the law doesn't apply.

The Sabbath was not a 'Shadow' of anything...it was a perpetual covenant to be kept forever ...you are getting confused with the term 'Sabbath' and 'sabbath days' which is a term used to described the Jewish festivals under the ceremonial law that was done away with at the cross because all the festivals pointed to Christ.

Isaiah 66:22-23
(22) For as the new heaven and the new earth which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
(23) and it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

The Sabbath is continued to be kept on a weekly basis (which is how long each Sabbath takes to come around) in Heaven then again in the New Earth just how it is expected to be kept now. If you understand the promises of our eternal inheritance you will know that we will have a city residence (in the heavenly city, which will also come down on the New Earth) and a country residence. It is required of us in the Heaven and again on the New Earth to meet in the heavenly city both once a week to participate in Sabbath worship of God and to be there each new moon (also meaning once a month) to participate in the eating of the fruit of the Tree of Life which produces fruit 12 times a year (or once a month/each new moon).

Are you able to tell me what the Beast's mark is?

If, according to you, the law no longer applies, then under what legal basis can Satan condemn anyone at Judgement

Do you think anyone who has had their heads dipped in water (baptized) are saved no matter what they do for the rest of their lives (because according to you the law doesn't apply)?

I will address your Hebrews 4 verses in my next post
edit on 8-5-2012 by JesuitGarlic because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 8 2012 @ 06:28 AM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 


By your definition Hitler would make it into Heaven......

Hitler was baptized a catholic


As a young man he was confirmed as a “soldier of Christ.” His most ardent goal at the time was to become a priest. Hitler writes of his love for the church and clergy: “I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.” -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)


He was under no thought of wickedness - the Church felt he was JUST and “avenging for God” in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus.

Who cares what he did, he did not have to observe the law....according to you right!

Do you think Hitler was representative of Jesus who you serve.....would Jesus be happy to have Hitler in Heaven knowing that this is the kind of people His teaching attracts?

I think you need to look over the texts more closely and develop a proper measure of how we receive our eternal rest in our heavenly Canaan
----------------------------------------------------
Let me help you out in the explanation of the correct understanding of Hebrews 4


Rest for the people of God

Now we come to a controversial statement: “there remains therefore a rest for the people of God” (verse 9). The Greek word translated “rest” in every other verse throughout Hebrews 3 and 4 is katapausis. The word for “rest” in Hebrews 4:9 is sabbatismos. This is the only New Testament occurrence of this word, and its meaning is fundamental to understanding this pivotal verse, which is the conclusion of everything previously said about “rest” beginning in Hebrews 3:7.

The Anchor Bible Dictionary states about the meaning of sabbatismos:

“The words ‘Sabbath rest” translate the [Greek] noun ‘sabbatismos,’ a unique word in the New Testament. This term appears also in Plutarch…for Sabbath observance, and in four postcanonical Christian writings which are not dependent on Hebrews 4:9, for seventh day ‘Sabbath celebration.’”

The Anchor Bible Dictionary continues with an explanation of the context:

“The author of Hebrews affirms in Hebrews 4:3-11 through the joining of quotations from Genesis 2:2 and Psalm 95:7 that the promised ‘Sabbath rest’ still anticipates a complete realization ‘for the people of God’ in the … endtime which had been inaugurated with the appearance of Jesus [Hebrews 1:1-3]… The experience of ‘Sabbath rest’ points to a present ‘rest’ (katapausis) reality in which those ‘who have believed are entering’ (4:3) and it points to a future ‘rest’ reality (4:11). Physical Sabbath-keeping on the part of the New Covenant believer as affirmed by ‘Sabbath rest’ epitomizes cessation from ‘works’ (4:10) in commemoration of God’s rest at creation (4:4 = Genesis 2:2) and manifests faith in the salvation provided by Christ.

“Hebrews 4:3-11 affirms that physical ‘Sabbath rest’ (sabbatismos) is the weekly outward manifestation of the inner experience of spiritual rest (katapausis) in which the final…rest is…experienced already ‘today’ (4:7). Thus ‘Sabbath rest’ combines in itself creation-commemoration, salvation-experience, and eschaton [end-time]-anticipation as the community of faith moves forward toward the final consummation of total restoration and rest.”

source


We are still under the law...my call to you is to show your love, obedience and faith in Jesus by keeping ALL his commandments, not just the ones that suit you. The great end days test is whether your allegiance to God is stronger than the customs/traditions of men in your life. God is calling His people out of apostasy and to worship Him how he wants. It is going to be used to divide the sheep from the goats, as God can't stand such disobedience to His Divine Law forever.
edit on 8-5-2012 by JesuitGarlic because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 8 2012 @ 10:07 AM
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reply to post by JesuitGarlic
 


Love your neighbor as yourself. Hitler did not do this, so you know he did not enter the kingdom of heaven. You are trying to obtain heaven through ritual and sacrifice. Heaven is obtained by believing in the Christ and the promised Holy Spirit. The one command is to love your neighbor as yourself.


Romans 14 1-9 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.



Romans 7:1-6 Do you not know, brothers and sisters —for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.
4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.



Romans 3:19-31 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood —to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished — 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.



Colossians 2:16-22 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.


You have died with Christ so that you might be raised with him. You are no longer under the law but you are one with Christ. Christ lives in you and his word is alive in you. You will not learn to follow the divine law, love your neighbor as yourself as long as you seek righteousness through the law. Righteousness is found in Christ Jesus. You must lose your life and let Christ become your life.

Scripture opens up the path to Christ but the truth is found in Christ. The Holy Spirit is in you, listen to the Holy Spirit and do what it says. If you listen to the Holy Spirit and do what it says you allow Christ to teach you all things. It is Christ that can teach you to love your neighbor as yourself. Obeying the law brings you no closer to God but rather by listening to the Holy Spirit and doing what it says you will obey the law perfectly.

You believe the Sabbath should be kept sacred and because of this you should indeed be fully convinced and do what you believe you should do. I believe all days are Holy and the Saturday Sabbath is a shadow of the true Sabbath to come, and has come. Like scripture says we should not be quarreling over disputable matters, but rather each of us should be fully convinced that what we do we do for the lord.
edit on 8-5-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 04:46 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 


I am happy not to 'quarrel over disputable matters' if someones faith is weak....but the matter we are discussing is INDISPUTABLE. Whatever text you provide to try and confirm your believe on this issue (usually presented with no analysis or explanation of the text because you don't understand it) I will be able to point out your error because I know this position is in truth and I stand on an absolutely rock solid foundation.

I already explained this verse to you

Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days (King James Version)

Which law relates to what you eat or drink and new moons? The ceremonial law

The words 'sabbath days' and 'shadow sabbaths' relates directly to the keeping of the major Jewish feasts each year that we are no longer under. I suggest you do some google searching and research before you try bring up such lines of arguments again.

I suggest you read some bible commentaries on the verses before you start quoting big slabs of text out me without having any idea what you are talking about.
Commentary 1
Commentaries 2

Concerning your verses Romans 3:19-31. Did I ever say you earn heaven by your works? NO. What is this passage of scripture saying? Verse 20 '...through the law we become conscious of our sin'. This is what I am trying to waken you up to, to become conscious of a law that has been discarded by most of protestant Christianity for what basis, when you actually read into what the protestant and Catholic churches have to say about this issue officially then absolutely confirm the stance on the 4th commandment.

Episcopal Church:

- "Is there any command in the New Testament to change the day of weekly rest from Saturday to Sunday? None." (Manual of Christian Doctrine p.127)
- "We have made a change from the seventh day to the first day, form Saturday to Sunday, on the authority of the one holy Catholic and apostolic church of Christ." (Why we keep Sunday. p.28.)


Lutheran:

- "The observance of the Lord's Day (Sunday) is founded not on any command of God, but on the authority of the church."The Augsburg Confession" in: Catholic Sabbath Manual, part 2, section 10


Presbyterian:

- "A change of the day to be observed from the last day of the week to the first. There is no record, no express command authorizing this change." (N.L. Rice, 'The Christian Sabbath', p.60)


Methodist:

- "Take the matter of Sunday...there is no passage telling Christians to keep that day, or to transfer the Jewish Sabbath to that day." (H. F. Rall, 'Christian Advocate', July 2, 1942.)


Congregationalist:

- "IT is quite clear that however rigidly or devoutly we spend Sunday, we are not keeping the Sabbath...There is not a single sentence in the New Testament to suggest that we incur any penalty by violating the supposed sanctity of Sunday." (Dr R.W. Dale, 'The Ten Commandments', pp100,101.)


Anglican:

- "Many people think that Sunday is the Sabbath, but neither in the New Testament nor in the early church, is there anything to suggest that we have any right to transfer the observance of the seventh day of the week to the first. The Sabbath was and is Saturday and not Sunday..." (Rev. Lionel Beere, 'Church and People', Sept. 1st 1947


Baptist:

- "There was and is a commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that Sabbath day was not Sunday...There is no scripture evidence of the change of the Sabbath institution from the seventh day to the first day of the week." (Dr. Edward T. Hiscox, (author of the Baptist Manual) New York Ministries Conference, Nov. 13, 1893.)


Catholic Church quotes:


“Is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.” — James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers (1917 edition), p. 72-73 (16th Edition, p 111; 88th Edition, p. 89).



“Most Christians assume that Sunday is the biblically approved day of worship. The Catholic Church protests that it transferred Christian worship from the biblical Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday, and that to try to argue that the change was made in the Bible is both dishonest and a denial of Catholic authority. If Protestantism wants to base its teachings only on the Bible, it should worship on Saturday.” — Rome’s Challenge immaculateheart.com/maryonline Dec 2003.



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 05:02 PM
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reply to post by JesuitGarlic
 


Such evidence makes the debate on Gilgamesh irrelevant.

Irrelevant to whom? The History here is Real, not made up.

The Tablets Telling The Epic of Gilgamesh


Epic Hero
How a self-taught British genius rediscovered the Mesopotamian saga of Gilgamesh —after 2,500 years

The unlikely researcher, George Smith, made one of archaeology's most sensational finds when he uncovered the cuneiform-inscribed clay tablet containing fragments of a lost Babylonian epic.

What he had uncovered would become known in the West as The Epic of Gilgamesh, the 3,200-year-old account of the eponymous hero's exploits and one of the oldest works of literature in the world.
source

So, pray tell me, JesuitGarlic, how is it that one of the oldest works of literature in the world is irrelevant to a Universal Flood Story? Are you studying in an alternate universe or something here?
BTW, fix your video if you wish us to watch it.



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 05:15 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 


So according to you, because you need to throw a negative label at something which you don't understand, you call the keeping of God's Divine Law a 'ritual and a sacrifice' for you. Keeping of the Sabbath day is a delight to me, I would consider setting aside the cares of the week to worship my God on the day he set apart and sanctified as holy to be a great joy, the day He assigned as a memorial to Him the creator of all things. I love to go out on the sabbath and be amongst nature and wonder at the beauty in the creative and awesome power of my God. I do not consider resting from my labors to veneer God's creating power, worshiping and learning more about Him to be a chore, a ritual or a sacrifice. Keeping God's commands should not be thought of by us as a chore, 'ritual and sacrifice' because we do it out of love for Him.

If ye love me, keep my commandments John 14:15

See how the word here commandments is plural, no commandment. Meaning there is more than one commandment to keep. Not just 'loving your neighbor'.

1 John 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands

Matthew 19:17 "...but if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments"

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus

1 John 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning

Isaiah 8:20 to the Law and to the testimony: If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

----------------------------------------
Addressing this back-peddling by you from having to observe no law to now having to observe the command of 'loving your neighbor' (which is referring to commandments 5 through to 10).

Why do you only backpedal this far to include only 6 commandments and not all 10.

Matthew 22: 36-40 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Jesus replied, "'You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. A second is equally important: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments."

So you 'forget' the first and great of the commands here (which is merely a summary of the essence of commandments 1 through 4) just so you don't have to keep the fourth commandment huh. Seems like a lot of selective hearing/reading going on. Whatever that doesn't support your position you forget it exists and throw it out entirely.

I guess to you then God doesn't mind when we blaspheme his name, worship idols and put other gods before Him to huh....that doesn't sounds like the gospel to me.

James 5

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
edit on 10-5-2012 by JesuitGarlic because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 06:37 PM
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I guess to you then God doesn't mind when we blaspheme his name, worship idols and put other gods before Him to huh....that doesn't sounds like the gospel to me.

Well, I am not the one that was addressed to, but couldn't resist replying to you. Worship Idols. Go to Church, do you? Have a big cross in there, perhaps with Jesus hanging from it? Idol worship. Raising a man before God? That's a commandment breaker if I ever saw one. Honor they Father and Mother? Means "Divine", by the way, not Earthly. When was the last time you honored the Goddess, your Divine Mother? Another commandment broken. Better clean up your own back porch, friend, before quoting commandments to us.



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 10:20 PM
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reply to post by autowrench
 


Autowrench....my church doesn't do idol worship. We don't have crosses of Jesus to pay homage, venerate of any kind. Can I guarantee that across every single SDA church in the world, no because I haven't been to them all but I am sure if you pointed out the apostasy to them, they would remove any kind of image of a cross, they would take such matters seriously (unless of course you ran into an SDA pastor who was actually a Jesuit infiltrating us, this has been known to happen). Yes I go to church pretty often. I don't get saved by going to church, I can still keep the Sabbath day by being out in nature, thinking about the Word of God as I sit and feel the cool breeze blow, the birds sing, the trees sway, the warmth of the sun upon my face, to take in and appreciate the wonderful power of the creator by being out in His creation. Or I can keep the Sabbath as well by spreading God's word and understanding about Him in places like this too.

Is it not similar how I appreciate the Creator by being out in His creation to the kind of importance people in Wicca might place on nature too? The only difference is I am venerating the creator of the nature and not the creation itself.

I am familiar that my message pisses off basically every Christian and non-Christian alike. My intention on posting on this site was initially to target Christians in apostasy in their practices against God. I am happy to converse with non-Christians like yourself because I have enough working knowledge of the errors in most other religions are based on which make them lead people away from ultimate truth.

Do I think there are valuable teachings in other faiths and ancient religions, Yes. Do they lead you to find God the creator who bought you with a price by ransoming his own life, rarely if ever.

I have missed answering some questions by both you and arpgme over the last weeks and have been reasonably busy in the past couple of days to get to them (I hope to do so over the next few days, but I am also getting very little feedback of info that I post for you to check out so I have no idea if you look in to what I say or if you just write it off). I am interested to hear your opinion about any of the postings I have made to you and information to look into whether it is videos or articles or books. For instance, did you look into any of the audio tapes by John Todd (aka Lance Collins), are you familiar at all with that book by Nicholas Redfern where it mentions some of the magic rituals Jack Parson and Aliester Crowley performed in the invocation of beings most people would consider to be a kind of ET. I believe the ritual was called the Babalon Working and were apart of the OTO society so I thought you might be familiar with this story and have some comments to make on it. What about your impressions on the videos to do with the Exodus and the Flood. Where do you see errors of gaps in the logic used here.

I am after a constructive and open discussion to help people be aware of where their beliefs come from and by understanding such things we can seek to follow a path that has a strong foundation.

If you read the posts I have made to the Christians here it is easy to see where their belief system is in error because they start descending into completely illogical arguments which go against the core of the whole Christian gospel just to maintain their current understanding of things, they also selectively pick texts which they think support their case while providing no understanding of the texts because they have little understanding of the proper meaning, they also ignore other texts completely and have no argument against the texts that support the case I am advocating as being absolutely scriptural, that the 4th commandment still is expected to be kept now.

Have you looked into Adventist theology at all in the past few days to get a better idea of what we believe? What did you think of when I said it was a unique theology of our church that Archangel Micheal and Jesus are the same being, have you heard of this before yourself (does thing not fit completely in-line with what you were saying about how 'angel' can also mean message or messenger).

I am interested to know in the theology of Wicca or other ancient religions what their position is in terms of having a god that is associated as being the creator or how they explain the origins of life in the universe (as in, if were seeded by ETs then who made the ETs)?

I would like to see your evidence that the text honor your father and mother implies your 'Divine' mother as well. To me this doesn't seem accurate because if it were so the aspect is covered in the 1st commandment (Exodus 20:3), 'You shall have no other gods before Me'.
edit on 10-5-2012 by JesuitGarlic because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 11:48 PM
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reply to post by JesuitGarlic
 

We don't have crosses of Jesus to pay homage, venerate of any kind. Can I guarantee that across every single SDA church in the world, no because I haven't been to them all . . .
There is in mine but it is like disguised as part of the architecture where it frames fake windows, or what seem like fake windows to me, that are just there to form a regular looking cross between them.

This is not what it looks like (this one in the picture is a lot less blatant and obvious) but something I found on google to give you the basic idea, but it is right at the altar end of the church (meaning right where you would normally be looking while seated in the pew), above the podium part where the choir would sit, and is very prominent.
edit on 10-5-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 11 2012 @ 01:23 AM
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reply to post by JesuitGarlic
 


I will try this one more time.


Hebrews 4:1-11
Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”

And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.” 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”

6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.



The people in the desert observed the Saturday Sabbath but they did not rest. Therefore obeying the law did not lead them to enter the rest. You see the Sabbath-rest remains. If you here is voice do not harden your hearts. The way to the most Holy place where you may inter into the Sabbath rest with God is through faith. I do obey the 4th commandment; I remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy. My heart and mind is set on Heaven, I believe in the Holy Spirit in me and I do my best to do what the Holy Spirit guides me to do. Remembering that there is a Sabbath rest for those that combine the words with the faith to follow what the spirit says keeps me on the right path.

Read the 4th commandment again, without making any assumptions. I am following the fourth commandment not by observing the law but through faith.

If following the law is what is required to go to heaven than what did Jesus pour out his blood on the cross to teach us? Did not God already give us the law through Moses, why then did he sacrifice his son?



posted on May, 11 2012 @ 01:47 AM
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reply to post by JesuitGarlic
 


Please understand that I do not wish this to come across as an attack on your faith. Again you should do what you are convinced you should do.

You don't understand the words that I type because you don't understand the scripture. You say that I am back peddling, or maybe you think that I am the one who is double minded. You think that I say there is no law to obey and then obey the law. But this is not what I said nor is it what is written in scripture.

What I said and what is written in scripture is no one is made righteous by observing the law. This means that you are not found righteous by following the law. The way you are trying to teach the Sabbath is through fear, you warn the world that if they do not obey the Saturday Sabbath they will not enter heaven, even calling Saturday Sabbath the sign of God and Sunday worship the mark of Satan.

I provided you many verses that need no special interpretation that say the seal of God is the Holy Spirit. But you have believed by decoding the messages in the old and new testament that you have realized that the seal of God is the Saturday Sabbath. If this is true than we should also be circumcised and observe the Passover, I mean the real one according to Jewish calendar, not Easter. Did you know that these are also mentioned as seals or marks in the Old Testament?

Again you are trying to bring people to the truth through fear. Does it not say the one who fears is not made perfect in love?

What you should be teaching is forgiveness and the good news that the Holy Spirit is in you, teaching you all things, guiding you to the truth. The one who accepts the Holy Spirit lives in them can know they are loved and forgiven because the Holy Spirit is within them. In this way they may be made perfect by the love of the Holy Spirit.

They can learn that knowing the Holy Spirit is in them plus having the faith to do what it says will be credited to them as righteousness. They will turn away from sin and towards Christ keeping their hearts and minds on heaven so that they may be found worthy to enter God's Sabbath rest.

This is the only message that can lead a person to obey the law, because it is no longer you who work to obey the law but rather Christ working through you.
edit on 11-5-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 11 2012 @ 02:51 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Do you think if you mentioned your concern about it, it would be removed. Do you feel like the purpose of the symbol of the cross is there as something to idolize?



posted on May, 11 2012 @ 03:29 AM
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reply to post by autowrench
 


Looks like I am still at noob level when it comes to working out how to post up youtube video link

- Genesis Conflict '108 - Spade unearths the truth' www.youtube.com...
- Revealing God's Treasure - Red Sea Crossing www.youtube.com...
- Revealing God's Treasure - Ark of the Covenant www.youtube.com...
- '102 - The Universal Flood' www.youtube.com...

The question about the Epic of Gilgamesh
The suggestion was made that Noah borrowed the Epic of Gilgamesh story so I defended this from a Christian perspective. From the video on the universal flood it is shown that it was world-wide. The bible suggests that it destroyed all life that was not in the ark (expect for the fallen angels down here that can easily avoid it). So therefore the only ones who know the story of the flood are Noah and his extended family of what, 8 or 9 people and all the fallen angels that are immune from it. So through the Oral Tradition Noah passes down the story and it is ages before it gets written down for posterity by Moses. In the meantime, as the people on earth start to multiple and branch out they start to move away from the teachings of Noah's God. They start to participate in apostate practices ect and along the away they get some false story of who was involved in the flood event (spread by a human or given to them from a channeled message perhaps) because they are generations far enough removed from the patriarch that it is not certain.

This is a perfectly valid explanation from a Christian perspective to say that the existence of the epic of Gilgamesh can not prove that Noah and his family weren't in the ark.



posted on May, 11 2012 @ 04:25 AM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 


I think I need to clarify what the purpose of this particular thread was. The point of the thread was to show from an analysis of scripture how God tells us what His mark and seal are for the great end days test that I personally feel is very close to happening but has not happened yet and therefore the mark of the beast system is not in place either right now so people who are not aware they are breaking the 4th commandment right now will not have that held against them (God 'winks his eye' at them). I am not saying that if they don't keep the fourth commandment right now they will not go to heaven.

From my analysis of what is going on in the world with the designed financial collapse that is being experienced worldwide (this is my area of expertise as by background is in investment analysis), what is going on with the changing laws happening in America and other parts of the world (the NDAA bill for instance), the coordination of multiple prophecies soon to occur and the content of the messages Lucifer is feeding the people in the New Age movement through all the channelers, I thought it would be a wise idea to pre-emptively get the message out there on what the mark and seal of God are and what the mark of the beast is and try to defend that position.

What happened with this thread though is that people wanted to challenge the idea that the 4th commandment was not legally binding (even it it was shown to be part of God's mark and seal) so the discussion went that way.

You are probably not familiar at all with visions that a couple of people in the SDA church have had specifically on how Satan will attempt to impersonate the second coming of Christ and establish his kingdom on earth in a very real visible sense rather than how he just rules from behind the scenes now. In these visions (1 of over 2000 this one person received during her life (she went on to become the most prolific and widely translated author in American history from the information that she was given)) it is described how when Satan does this counterfeit second coming (can be seen to be false if you know your bible well) he convinces the majority of the world pretty easily that he is 'the Christ' by performing various miracles and says that in order to pay homage to him that he wants to be worshiped on Sunday and that he has changed the fourth commandment. What transpires next is that America (the beast of the land power of Revelation 13) leads the world in instituting a law which compels people to keep the Sunday and persecutes those that choose to still keep the Sabbath command (similar kind of scenario of Nebuchadnezzar demanding everyone bow down to the image of the golden statue he has set up of himself). The rest of the world then follow America in putting this into law for the people of the world to keep. Then you also have the situation of economic embargo put against these people who wish to follow God's commands and not keep the, 'national day of reverence' (i.e not able to buy or sell).

I have another thread that describes this same kind of vision/dream from a more modern source in the SDA church here which tracing the same kind of content as the dream given more than 100 years ago.

I wished to establish an online presence and for people to know my position and where this particular message of counterfeit of Satan comes from so that when it occurs you will know who had inside information on it and what it means in the context of things.

I apologize for getting too preachy and coming across in a poor way. My intention is to only get a couple of basic messages out there and for the preemptive prior warnings/ inside info to pay dividends when it happens, to be a helpful source of understanding for people, and for them to trust that God would never change His Divine Law.

I wish to be on the front foot in tackling this imposter 'Christ' when he comes on the scenes mesmerizing people with his great abilities and not on the back foot reacting. My intention here is not to be converting people to my faith right now, it is to lay the ground-work of credibility so I can speak more openly and influentially here later on (when these events transpire).

I understand your suggestion about what I should be teaching right now, I do this right now already but not to people on this forum. This message you suggest is good in one on one discussions where people are searching and open to the Christian message, but in the environment on this forum such teaching would get eaten alive by people who have their own agendas of sabotage ect. I haven't been on this forum for all that long but it appears that most people already have a reasonably entrenched belief system and are not particularly open to a soft talk Christian message, is that accurate to say?

Can you imagine what would happen if I tried to convince autowrench of Christianity with soft talk and bible verses only. He and others eat people alive with this approach, nothing but clashing of heads and no progress one way or another, no credibility given on anyone either side of that kind of discussion.

You have to understand what the message I am saying is. It is the end times 3 angels messages of Revelation 14:6- 13. If you understand the purpose of the message it is meant to be very cutting because from understanding the truth of it they are expected to remove themselves from apostate worship at that time, so it can't be a soft message ('come out from them my people and be separate'). The message is only slightly inappropriate at this time but you will hear it much more I feel in the intermediate period ahead from others.
edit on 11-5-2012 by JesuitGarlic because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 11 2012 @ 04:41 AM
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reply to post by JesuitGarlic
 

Do you feel like the purpose of the symbol of the cross is there as something to idolize?

I think everyone just ignores it.
Someone designed it that way but I know it was not some other church they took over.
It was built new for the SDA church.
There is something similar on the outside, on the opposite end of the church. I think it was a choice to make it obviously a church, without having to have a traditional steeple and cross sort of set-up.
edit on 11-5-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 11 2012 @ 04:48 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


In agreement



posted on May, 11 2012 @ 05:44 AM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 


Here is a summary of events in rough chronological order I have deduced as presented in the compilation book 'Last Day Event' based on multiple visions of these events given to this person (who had received over 2000 visions) by God.

Source: egwwritings.org... search the term 'lde'


1. BEFORE JESUS RETURNS SATAN IS to FIRST DISPLAYS HIMSELF WIDELY IN PHYSICAL FORM TRYING TO CONVINCE THAT HE IS THE LONGED FOR CHRIST (SAVIOR), SURROUNDED BY DAZZLING LIGHT AND PERFORMING MIRACLES (HEALINGS, FIRE FROM HEAVEN), HE IS ABLE TO CONVINCE MOST OF THE WORLD (I BELIEVE THE VATICAN CONFIRMS HIS AUTHENTCITY AS WELL BUT NOT 100% ON THAT). HE TELLS THE WORLD TO KEEP SUNDAY SACRED TO HONOUR HIM

As the crowning act in the great drama of deception, Satan himself will personate Christ. The church has long professed to look to the Saviour’s advent as the consummation of her hopes. Now the great deceiver will make it appear that Christ has come. In different parts of the earth, Satan will manifest himself among men as a majestic being of dazzling brightness, resembling the description of the Son of God given by John in the Revelation. Revelation 1:13-15. The glory that surrounds him is unsurpassed by anything that mortal eyes have yet beheld. The shout of triumph rings out upon the air: “Christ has come! Christ has come!” The people prostrate themselves in adoration before him, while he lifts up his hands and pronounces a blessing upon them, as Christ blessed His disciples when He was upon the earth.

His voice is soft and subdued, yet full of melody. In gentle, compassionate tones he presents some of the same gracious, heavenly truths which the Saviour uttered; he heals the diseases of the people, and then, in his assumed character of Christ, he claims to have changed the Sabbath to Sunday, and commands all to hallow the day which he has blessed. He declares that those who persist in keeping holy the seventh day are blaspheming his name by refusing to listen to his angels sent to them with light and truth. This is the strong, almost overmastering delusion.

Satan Resembles Christ in Every Particular
• There is a limit beyond which Satan cannot go, and here he calls deception to his aid and counterfeits the work which he has not power actually to perform. In the last days he will appear in such a manner as to make men believe him to be Christ come the second time into the world. He will indeed transform himself into an angel of light. But while he will bear the appearance of Christ in every particular, so far as mere appearance goes, it will deceive none but those who, like Pharaoh, are seeking to resist the truth.—Testimonies for the Church 5:698 (1889).

How the Counterfeit Differs From the Genuine
• Satan ... will come personating Jesus Christ, working mighty miracles; and men will fall down and worship him as Jesus Christ. We shall be commanded to worship this being, whom the world will glorify as Christ. What shall we do? Tell them that Christ has warned us against just such a foe, who is man’s worst enemy, yet who claims to be God, and that when Christ shall make His appearance it will be with power and great glory, accompanied by ten thousand times ten thousand angels and thousands of thousands, and that when He shall come we shall know His voice.—The S.D.A. Bible Commentary 6:1106 (1888).
• Satan is striving to gain every advantage.... Disguised as an angel of light, he will walk the earth as a wonder-worker. In beautiful language he will present lofty sentiments; good words will be spoken by him and good deeds performed. Christ will be personified. But on one point there will be a marked distinction—Satan will turn the people from the law of God. Notwithstanding this, so well will he counterfeit righteousness that, if it were possible, he would deceive the very elect. Crowned heads, presidents, rulers in high places, will bow to his false theories.—Fundamentals of Christian Education, 471, 472 (1897).

Miracles Will Be Performed
• The sick will be healed before us. Miracles will be performed in our sight. Are we prepared for the trial which awaits us when the lying wonders of Satan shall be more fully exhibited?—Testimonies For The Church 1:302 (1862).
• Men under the influence of evil spirits will work miracles. They will make people sick by casting their spell upon them, and will then remove the spell, leading others to say that those who were sick have been miraculously healed. This Satan has done again and again.—Selected Messages 2:53 (1903).
• Wonderful scenes, with which Satan will be closely connected, will soon take place. God’s Word declares that Satan will work miracles. He will make people sick, and then will suddenly remove from them his satanic power. They will then be regarded as healed.



posted on May, 11 2012 @ 05:47 AM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 



Fire From Heaven
• We must not trust the claims of men. They may, as Christ represents, profess to work miracles in healing the sick. Is this marvelous, when just behind them stands the great deceiver, the miracle worker who will yet bring down fire from heaven in the sight of men?—Selected Messages 2:49 (1887).
• It is the lying wonders of the devil that will take the world captive, and he will cause fire to come down from heaven in the sight of men. He is to work miracles, and this wonderful, miracle-working power is to sweep in the whole world.—Selected Messages 2:51 (1890).
• Satan will come in to deceive if possible the very elect. He claims to be Christ, and he is coming in, pretending to be the great medical missionary. He will cause fire to come down from heaven in the sight of men to prove that he is God. Medical Ministry, 87, 88 (1903).

The Deception Is Almost Universal
The substitution of the false for the true is the last act in the drama. When this substitution becomes universal God will reveal Himself. When the laws of men are exalted above the laws of God, when the powers of this earth try to force men to keep the first day of the week, know that the time has come for God to work.

2. AMERICA (the beast of the land power from Revelation 13) LEADS THE WORLD FIRST INTO FOLLOWING THE DICTATES OF SATAN BY ISSUING A CIVIL LAW TO SUMBIT TO SUNDAY WORSHIP, THIS LAW WILL THEN SPREAD ACROSS THE WORLD AS WELL

The decree enforcing the worship of this day is to go forth to all the world.—The S.D.A. Bible Commentary 7:976 (1897).
As America, the land of religious liberty, shall unite with the papacy in forcing the conscience and compelling men to honor the false sabbath, the people of every country on the globe will be led to follow her example.—Testimonies for the Church 6:18 (1900).

Foreign nations will follow the example of the United States. Though she leads out, yet the same crisis will come upon our people in all parts of the world.—Testimonies for the Church 6:395 (1900).

An attempt to enforce upon all the observance of the first day of the week as a sacred day. In doing this they will not scruple to compel men against the voice of their own conscience to observe the day the nation declares to be the Sabbath. Protestant and Papist churches unite in the decree to keep the Sunday sacred.


3. PERSECUTION FOR THOSE WHO FOLLOW THE BIBLE SABBATH OF GOD, SOME WILL BE IMPRISIONED FOR THEIR FAITH AND MANY PUT TO DEATH, PERSECUTION LEADS TO UNITY AMONGST GOD'S PEOPLE

Those who honor the Bible Sabbath will be denounced as enemies of law and order, as breaking down the moral restraints of society, causing anarchy and corruption, and calling down the judgments of God upon the earth. Their conscientious scruples will be pronounced obstinacy, stubbornness, and contempt of authority. They will be accused of disaffection toward the government.—The Great Controversy, 592 (1911).

All who in that evil day would fearlessly serve God according to the dictates of conscience, will need courage, firmness, and a knowledge of God and His Word, for those who are true to God will be persecuted, their motives will be impugned, their best efforts misinterpreted, and their names cast out as evil.—The Acts
of the Apostles, 431, 432 (1911).
Hoarded wealth will become worthless (for God's people). When the decree shall go forth that none shall buy or sell except they have the mark of the beast, very much means will be of no avail. God calls for us now to do all in our power to send forth the warning to the world. The time is coming when we cannot sell at any price. The decree will soon go forth prohibiting men to buy or sell of any man save him that hath the mark of the beast.

Satan says ... “For fear of wanting food and clothing they will join with the world in transgressing God’s law. The earth will be wholly under my dominion.”—Prophets and Kings, 183, 184 (c. 1914).

When the protection of human laws shall be withdrawn from those who honor the law of God, there will be, in different lands, a simultaneous movement for their destruction. As the time appointed in the decree draws near, the people will conspire to root out the hated sect. It will be determined to strike in one night a decisive blow, which shall utterly silence the voice of dissent and reproof.

For a time the oppressors will be permitted to triumph over those who know God’s holy commandments.... To the last, God permits Satan to reveal his character as a liar, an accuser, and a murderer. Thus the final triumph of His people is made more marked, more glorious, more full and complete. (see the book 'the truth about angels' to know the background story of Satan, to understand God's motives are for keeping Satan here on this world)



posted on May, 11 2012 @ 05:50 AM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 



4. Superficial Believers Will Renounce the Faith
5. Defections Among Church Leaders
6. The Church May Appear as About to Fall
7. God’s Faithful Will Be Revealed
8. New Converts Will Take the Places of Those Who Leave

God's true people who can be found in all the churches will be called out when the truth about Sabbath and Sunday worship is made fully known to them

9. The sins of Babylon will be laid open
(God only judges those by the degree of light they have received, but there is no excuse for those who are willfully blind). The fearful results of enforcing the observances of the church by civil authority, the inroads of spiritualism, the stealthy but rapid progress of the papal power—all will be unmasked. By these solemn warnings the people will be stirred. Thousands upon thousands will listen who have never heard words like these.

10. The Message Will Go With Great Power

11. Most Non-Adventists Will Reject the Warning
Some will listen to these warnings, but by the vast majority they will be disregarded

12. Thousands Converted in a Day
Thousands in the eleventh hour will see and acknowledge the truth....


13. THE CLOSE OF PROBATION (Meaning, you need to make your decision BEFORE this time!)
- No One Knows When Probation Will Close
- Sunday-Law Enforcement comes before the Close of Probation
- Probation Closes When the Sealing (people fully deciding for God or not) Is Finished and will end suddenly and unexpectedly
- When it is closed there will be a short time when: Unbelief continues, Men wholly engrossed in business, Religious Leaders Will Be Full of Optimism as they think about a period of peace ahead, A famine for the Word, No more prayers for the wicked, transfer of character no longer possible

When the reasoning of philosophy has banished the fear of God’s judgments, when religious teachers are pointing forward to long ages of peace and prosperity, and the world are absorbed in their rounds of business and pleasure, planting and building, feasting and merrymaking, rejecting God’s warnings and mocking His messengers—then it is that sudden destruction cometh upon them, and they shall not escape.

14. Seven Last Plagues come - and the wicked see that God's chosen people are protected from them

15. The wicked are in terror as they see Christ approach (the real one this time) with all His glory

16. The Dead in Christ are raised back to life and are raised into the air with the living who are in Christ as well
--------------------------------------
When the Mark of the beast is received
Sundaykeeping is not yet the mark of the beast, and will not be until the decree goes forth causing men to worship this idol sabbath. The time will come when this day will be the test, but that time has not come yet.


Enforcement of Sunday Observance Is the Test
None are condemned until they have had the light and have seen the obligation of the fourth commandment. But when the decree shall go forth enforcing the counterfeit sabbath, and the loud cry of the third angel shall warn men against the worship of the beast and his image, the line will be clearly drawn between the false and the true. Then those who still continue in transgression will receive the mark of the beast.

While the observance of the false sabbath in compliance with the law of the state, contrary to the fourth commandment, will be an avowal of allegiance to a power that is in opposition to God, the keeping of the true Sabbath, in obedience to God’s law, is an evidence of loyalty to the Creator. While one class, by accepting the sign of submission to earthly powers, receive the mark of the beast, the other, choosing the token of allegiance to divine authority, receive the seal of God.
edit on 11-5-2012 by JesuitGarlic because: (no reason given)






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