It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Is Satan really on God's side?

page: 2
4
<< 1   >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Apr, 27 2012 @ 03:11 AM
link   
reply to post by sarra1833
 


In my religion the Devil opposed freewill and wanted to force everyone to be saved, while Christ wanted to give everyone the agency to choose.

God sided with Christ and the devil threw some type of tantrum and rebelled against God's plan so he was kicked out of heaven.

The Devil pissed off from being kicked out of heaven decides to continue his rebellion by battling God for our souls on earth.

I have a hard time thinking that a being like the devil could actually believe that he could win a war against an all powerful being such as God.

He almost has to be on God's team or not exist at all.




posted on Apr, 27 2012 @ 03:19 AM
link   
reply to post by Logmafia
 


It was the angels taking a back seat of god's love to mankind that cause the rebellion. Lucifer god's favorite angel now had to take a step back as god favorited mankind. God then told the angels to love mankind. Lucifer got mad and rebelled taking angels with him. Atleast that's what were told. If you pay attention to scripture though. Lucifer is working as god's advocate to sway mankind into carrying out his plan for us.



posted on Apr, 29 2012 @ 05:04 PM
link   
reply to post by Manunnaki
 


Well, coming from a black point of view, I think many peoples views would remain the same to this day. I think this because the KKK was not only against blacks, but also against Hispanics, Asians, Jews etc. As widespread as the KKK was/is, there are many people who simply see people based on there actions as an individual. When I see a group of my own race gathered at a street corner, my demeanor changes, I take on a more aggressive stance and become more confrontational. If it were a group of another race, my actions would still be the same. My reason for that is because I am aware of what people are capable of.
I can ask myself "If the Black Panther Party never existed would I still view white people the same?" The answer is yes.Most of the things that group stands for do not apply to my life. If a person has a flat tire on the side of the road, I will apprehensively stop to help them, doesn't matter if they are Black, White, Hispanic or Asian.
My answer was way too long and drawn out, but I hope I conveyed my response.



posted on May, 2 2012 @ 07:48 AM
link   
well assuming there is a devil ( which i do not believe ) Anne rice dealt with that in memnoch the devil. quite a good read.



posted on May, 2 2012 @ 08:59 AM
link   
reply to post by sarra1833
 


Supposedly, he uses Satan as an instrument to work on and condition humans.



Isaiah 54:16

Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.


The only question I have is what is the purpose for conditioning everyone in the world. What if we are all just merchandise?



posted on May, 5 2012 @ 06:32 PM
link   

Originally posted by sarra1833
I was thinking about this and actually got many others to get a theological headache from this. Decided to post here to see what the masses at ATS felt.

I was raised Methodist since 1973 but have lately in the last 5 or so years taken a more 'polytheist agnostic' view as I personally feel the extreme left/right of it (Religion/Atheism) isn't for me personally as I feel neither side knows 100% for sure if it's true or not. Anyway, not my point. Just giving a base on where I personally stand.

Also, the following is not based on if they exist or not. It's just a hole I found. I like finding holes in things. May be why I love Swiss Cheese so much. Anyhow:

I think the Devil is doing Gods work.

Think on it. For those religious folk who try to convert non believers over to God, they tell them they'll be rewarded with life after death, reunited with passed on loved ones ,etc, right? And if people choose to not believe in God, or if they do bad, they burn in hell and are punished, tortured etc by the Devil.

It's also said that the Devil tries to tempt Man away from God, to denounce Him and not believe in Him. That's what he wants to do.

To convert believers into non believers to be on the Devils side.

So, if he ends up getting people to denounce God, go against him and therefore come to hell, why would he PUNISH them and torture them and make them burn?

He should reward them for coming to his side, yes? By eternally torturing them for turning away from God, he's doing God's work. He's on God's side. He's on God's payroll. "Listen, since you turned away from God, I'm his punisher for doing that. You get to burn for eternity now for turning away from my boss man." says the Devil to Man.

Thoughts?


Satan does work for God, he just doesn't realize it yet. In the bible there's this guy called the King of Babylon- the entire book of Jeremiah is devoted to recording this guys military conquest of the planet earth (or, at least, planet earth as they knew it). At Isaiah 14 the prophet is called to go and taunt this King of Babylon and gives his famous "how you have fallen, O Lucifer" taunt. Okay now if you're not aware of this, the word "Babylon" is actually a placeholder for "Babel"; that means that the name of the place in the bible is "Babel" (just like "Egypt" is actually called "Mizraim" in the bible) but the translators chose to put the name that was familiar to the gentile reader so it would be easier to understand: otherwise people might read that Moses went down into Mizraim and they'd all be like, "Huh? Where's that?" but put "Egypt" there and now it's much easier for them to go, "Oh, yeah, Egypt- I know that one."

Okay so this is really the King of Babel, right? As in the infamous city and tower of Genesis 11. We know from there that this means "confusion" and so to properly transliterate the title "King of Babel" we would have "King of Confusion", right? Okay, so Jesus is the King of Peace, so who might the King of Confusion be? See these men are all being used as pictures of Satan, the King of Confusion; and what God plans on doing with him. Now note a phrase God uses repeatedly :

Jer 27:6 And now have I given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant; and the beasts of the field have I given him also to serve him.

See that? God is calling the King of Confusion "My servant". Now look at Isaiah 10 where you will see another picture of Satan, and note what it says of him: you will see that he is likened to a rod of judgment in the hand of God, right? But he doesn't realize that what he is really doing is the will of God; he thinks he is doing it of his own free will. But no, he is just an instrument. Now, look at Dan 4, read it and you will see the event when the King of Confusion finally realizes that nothing he has accomplished has been of his own free will and power- he realizes that without God, he is in fact- nothing.

Consider that these pictures are all ultimately prophetic of the antichrist; the true King of Confusion, Satan himself; you know, they conquer the world and the holy people, he conquers the world and the holy people, they build an image to be worshipped, he builds an image to be worshipped, etc. They're just pictures of him.

Oh hey and also there's this one kind of oddity about the military campaign of the King of Confusion; it has a timeline embedded into it. Yeah, isn't that weird. Like of all these war events in the bible for some odd reason God decided it was a good thing to embed the exact day and month these things happened on. You'd think He was sending timing information to people in the future or something; like He was demonstrating that He is completely sovereign over history and reality- hey, wait a second. You don't think? I mean, is it? Could it be?
edit on 5-5-2012 by MrCobb because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 5 2012 @ 06:36 PM
link   

Originally posted by daynight42
reply to post by sarra1833
 



Also, why don't people think that the Devil wrote the bible, and that's it's all a trick to trap them? Hmm? That would be pretty clever. Good luck christians!


I always wondered that myself, wouldn't the devil himself writing the bible be the biggest deception of all?
S+F you have to look at all possiblities....



posted on May, 5 2012 @ 06:37 PM
link   
Also just wanted to add, there is no such a place where people burn in literal fire forever; this is a gross misunderstanding of the fire analogue. Anyone actually bothering to read the bible will notice that God is using visible things as analogues of invisible things; He is analoguing truth with fire; that is why you see people with fire coming out of their mouths and such. So whenever you see something about fire in the bible you are intended to take that as being an analogue of truth; truth burns up lies and everyone's world is about to go up in flames; but here's the good news: the end of the person that you now are is the beginning of the person you were intended to be; this will not cause a change of identity, it will come about through a change of understanding. It's all about information.



posted on May, 5 2012 @ 06:58 PM
link   

Originally posted by MaryStillToe
reply to post by sarra1833
 


Supposedly, he uses Satan as an instrument to work on and condition humans.



Isaiah 54:16

Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.


The only question I have is what is the purpose for conditioning everyone in the world. What if we are all just merchandise?


The "conditioning" is what is going to make you wake up. What is going on is that, originally God thought the idea of you, and there you were, perfect in God's mind. God thought, "Good idea!" Unfortunately, you were non-existent. So God had to call you out of non-existence; and that is what He did- because, again, He liked the idea. Now you are going through the creation analogue; like a lump of clay in God's hands he is working away at that final masterpiece that is you. So right now you are passing through that imperfect, unfinished, quasi-realness progressing toward completion and the revelation of the perfect you. You might consider it this way: as the dreamstate is to what we call reality, what we call reality is to the "super-reality" as it were, where God is. All of the pain and joy and such of this transient "limbo" reality is necessary to get us into the REAL world. The truth: you haven't actually been born yet. The good news is that the music is starting up and the inception horns are beginning to WHORMP WHORMP! WHORMP WORHMP!

Want to read your biography? Read the Velveteen Rabbit!
edit on 5-5-2012 by MrCobb because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 5 2012 @ 07:09 PM
link   

Originally posted by jheated5

Originally posted by daynight42
reply to post by sarra1833
 



Also, why don't people think that the Devil wrote the bible, and that's it's all a trick to trap them? Hmm? That would be pretty clever. Good luck christians!


I always wondered that myself, wouldn't the devil himself writing the bible be the biggest deception of all?
S+F you have to look at all possiblities....


That is kind of like asking, what if the Shakespearean plays were actually written by Francis Bacon? It doesn't really change the content of the plays so, you know, a rose by any other name.



posted on May, 5 2012 @ 07:11 PM
link   
One quick thing, apparently pain and trauma are a necessary part of the process of birth, so God decided that He would go through the pain and trauma with us even though He didn't have to. Which is pretty cool of Him I think.



posted on May, 5 2012 @ 07:19 PM
link   

Originally posted by MrCobb

Originally posted by jheated5

Originally posted by daynight42
reply to post by sarra1833
 



Also, why don't people think that the Devil wrote the bible, and that's it's all a trick to trap them? Hmm? That would be pretty clever. Good luck christians!


I always wondered that myself, wouldn't the devil himself writing the bible be the biggest deception of all?
S+F you have to look at all possiblities....


That is kind of like asking, what if the Shakespearean plays were actually written by Francis Bacon? It doesn't really change the content of the plays so, you know, a rose by any other name.


You can't draw that kind of analogy because those people are not being praised everyday and make their life decisions based on them, what is it over a billion people??? I would say deceiving that many people would be quite the accomplishment. If you happen to believe in that books descriptions of the afterlife and who you are following than yes I would say it makes a great deal of difference!



posted on May, 5 2012 @ 07:50 PM
link   
reply to post by MrCobb
 


Well, I am not going to knock your religion, but many of your statements about the devil, shows a fallacy that many Christians have, and that is the fallacy that Jews believe what Christians believe and only differ on the idea of Jesus as the messiah. The truth is if more Christians would actually take the time to understand Judaism, they would realize why Shaitan appears the way he does in the old testament; ie a servant of god.

It's actually because in Judaism and especially early Judaism, they did not believe that Shaitan was a fallen or rebellious angel nor was he an enemy of god hell bent on destroying the world and conquering heaven, those are all LATER CHRISTIAN INTERPRATIONS. In fact in Judaism though Shaitan wasn't really a friend of the people, he was actually a serving angel of god whose soul purpose was to test humanity and show their evilness. In fact early Jews saw the world as being like an extended court case if you will, judging mankind after the fall, you had angels like Michael who were like the divine defense team and their role was to show mankind's good points, you then had Shaitan who like the original devils advocate or divine prosecutor would show mankind's sins and failings and God as judge was still determining whether mankind was even worth the effort and right to exist yet. Of course until judgment day the final ruling hasn't been made yet.

The funny thing is if you look at early Judaism and even Islam the idea of a fallen or rebellious angel was seen as a ludicrous notion, since in both of those religions angels don't even have free will meaning they can never rebel against God's will. It's actually why in Islam Shaitan, whom they call Ibliss was transformed from an angel to a Djinn, in a way one could say they actually found a way to bridge the two opposing views of Judaism and Christianity; the idea of Satan as an serving angel of god without free will and the fallen rebellious angel.

So if there is a devil, yes he knows he serves God and still serves God at least according to the old testament and Judaism, it's Christianity that sees Satan as a rebellious and evil angel. It has to do with the fact that though Christians want to use the old testament and want to believe that it's all written in stone, very few of them actually have studied the history of Judaism it's reformations and counter reformations or the views of Jews over the various centuries which actually have changed over time a great deal. The sad truth is religion is not written in stone and has had many evolutions along it's long path. And either reading books on comparative religion or the history of religions or a course in it would actually be good for many Christians.

Excerpt of one of the views of Satan in early Judaism




Job's Satan In the Book of Job, ha-Satan is a member of the divine council, "the sons of God" who are subservient to God. Ha-Satan, in this capacity, is many times translated as "the prosecutor", and is charged by God to tempt humans and to report back to God all who go against His decrees.


source




top topics



 
4
<< 1   >>

log in

join