U.S. Decieved Into Believing There is Such A Thing as Fair Taxation

The OP is dead on accurate.

There is NO such thing as a fair tax.
People are especially accepting of taxes these days, so "fair" tax sounds like the answer.
Especially when there's 100's of taxes for everyday things.
But if one is adamantly against any tax then there is no argument.

Income tax is especially important to me because of when it was implemented.
That's entire era was wraught with power grabs and wealth tranfers.

In my humble opinion, if you have a group of power addicts making decisions with large sums of OUR money, the truth about taxes and the mess behind them will always be hidden. Hidden behind their highly misunderstood lines of codes, statutes and law jargon.
Law jargon that most people won't bother to read.
Or understand.

Tax....at what point in a persons life do they accept this burden?

When they become adults?



Also...how is it fair that they take money from people and use it for world police work?
That's not where I want taxes to go, so is fair to me? No.
How is it fair that the gov't uses taxes to build up other economies, businesses or corporations...but the very people who paid into the system? We have lists of corporations not paying taxes. But getting bailed out.

I want my infrastructure rebuilt.
If I want any money I give to the gov't spent, it should be for us.
Not their ideas of what we need.

JPZ, good thread. I do believe most respondents to your OP are missing the point. Signing the jurat on any tax form is a waiver of the 5th Amendment's guarantee.

This is the typical jurat of a 1040 form that we are all familiar with.

Under penalties of perjury, I declare that I have examined this return and accompanying schedules and statements, and to the best of my knowledge and belief,
they are true, correct, and complete. Declaration of preparer (other than taxpayer) is based on all information of which preparer has any knowledge.

And this is the text of the 5th.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

To sign a 1040 is to waiver your 5th.

True Fact #1:
An IRS publication, such as "How to fill out a form" is not the law.
Only the law is the law. The law is encoded in Title 26.

The law starts here : www.law.cornell.edu...

USC : TITLE 26 - INTERNAL REVENUE CODE
26 USC SUBTITLE A - INCOME TAXES
26 USC CHAPTER 1 - NORMAL TAXES AND SURTAXES
26 USC CHAPTER 1, SUBCHAPTER A - DETERMINATION OF TAX LIABILITY
26 USC PART I - TAX ON INDIVIDUALS
(a) Married individuals filing joint returns and surviving spouses
(b) Heads of households
(c) Unmarried individuals (other than surviving spouses and heads of households)

etc.

True Fact #2 :
When you are paying your 1040 taxes you are not paying income taxes... you are paying the "26 USC PART I - TAX ON INDIVIDUALS". It just so happens that the "TAX ON INDIVIDUALS" has categories for (a), (b), (c) and so on.

Remember, the law is the law is the law. Every word is written for a purpose. Every word can have a meaning that is different from common usage.

True Fact #3 :
This speaks to the inherent unfairness of the situation in taxation which is the subject of your OP.
Title 26 is biased toward married with childrens, unmarried with childrens, people with dependants, etc.
Title 26 is biased against single individuals.

That is exactly the word of the law. The U.S. has been deceived. I don't want to hog JPZ's thread.

How deep did you want to go with this thread, JPZ?

To me, fair taxation is taxing citizens to the point that the government is fully funded without having to go into debt. We should tax everybody to the fullest until all those federal programs they love so much are fully funded, even if it means they only have a few pennies to the dollar left over when Uncle Sam gets done picking their pockets.

We should tax everybody 'till they scream from the agony of having all of their hard earned money taken away to pay for bloated federal programs. Then, we should tax them even more for local and state funding just to show everybody how much all of their big gubment programs cost to uphold and maintain.

If people want to live in a Big gubment, nanny state, they should be forced to fund it fully, without having to borrow one thin dime against future generations. When people see every last penny of their paycheck going to fund the bloated gubment and their wars, they will finally be able to make the hard choices and cut programs that really are not necessary or authorized by the Constitution.

This country was founded fighting for the principle of "No taxation without representation" yet, we burden our future generations with the debt of our current out of control spending. If ever there was taxation without representation this is it, the ultimate unfair tax; forcing generations not yet born (for hundreds of years into the future) to bear the cost of our current bloated gubment. Our spending today is putting our children and their children's children for uncountable generations into debt slavery to pay for the programs we enjoy today.

reply to post by SayonaraJupiter

How deep did you want to go with this thread, JPZ?

As deep as we need to go, which ultimately will be much like peeling an onion. Let me begin, however, by first addressing your initial post. The 5th Amendment argument is a valid one, but it tends to be what I call a "taxpayer" argument. Even the liable have a 5th Amendment right. Those not liable do not need any protection of the 5th if they are properly challenging the jurisdiction of the tax collector.

Regarding your True Fact #1 I would like to add to that the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) is not the law either, and both these publications are in pursuance of the law. However, the difference between the law and pursuance of the law, is that the publication you point to and the CFR are written with the presumption that those reading it are actually subject to the applicable revenue laws and liable for a tax.

Thank your for your most important contribution to this thread.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

Perhaps if I employed rhyming couplets as Dr. Seuss did the rest of you pro income taxation people could understand this thread, Lord knows you haven't a clue what the tax code say's, what the Constitution say's, or anything else about law.

Gee, thanks for that, Jean Paul. Now I have to go buy some Depends.

Great thread.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


i never asked to be taxed.

i never asked the government to take money from me without my permission (what the ? )

i never said it was ok, or that it was what i wanted.


i say the government is breaking our freedom.

heard in court?
um just try asking the judge to show you the law that says you have to pay income tax
he will show you the inside of jail

Originally posted by sealing
So is it all taxes you're against?
Remember that man whose house burned down
because his local (tea party?) Rep. thought they didn't need
a tax funded fire department ? Instead implementing a "Pay in case
You Burn" private fire department. He was one of these
"I'm sick of paying taxes" people. So he didn't pay.
His house burned to the ground as the private fire department
watched, in case his fire caught the dues paying neighbors house.

That's the world you want? I know you mean income tax,
but let's not go with income tax just pays debt argument.
Police, Fire, Ambulance, disaster relief?

Maybe y'all can set an example by never using roads?

There is a difference between paying a service and paying taxes which may or may not be used to provide a service - the discretion lies in the hands of those to collect the taxes and not with the payer. You pay for "services" that you are not guaranteed, but, the collectors are guaranteed of taking the money. Per your example there are plenty of "volunteer" fire depts. and plenty of private ways to address the issue without paying money which, will not assure you of a fire truck at your house.

Originally posted by SayonaraJupiter
JPZ, good thread. I do believe most respondents to your OP are missing the point. Signing the jurat on any tax form is a waiver of the 5th Amendment's guarantee.

This is the typical jurat of a 1040 form that we are all familiar with.

Under penalties of perjury, I declare that I have examined this return and accompanying schedules and statements, and to the best of my knowledge and belief,
they are true, correct, and complete. Declaration of preparer (other than taxpayer) is based on all information of which preparer has any knowledge.

And this is the text of the 5th.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

To sign a 1040 is to waiver your 5th.

Correct me if I am wrong. My sense is that the signature of POP, is to throw the whole matter into a criminal court and out of a civil court. The paying is a civil matter "you owe me because we signed a contract and you haven't paid" but the clause of POP, in which the penalty is issued by the criminal courts, gives them jurisdiction they would not otherwise have. Which, leads to your 5th amendment point, you can't file without signing - get your money BACK, so by signing you wind up here instead of there.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by SayonaraJupiter

 

How deep did you want to go with this thread, JPZ?

As deep as we need to go, which ultimately will be much like peeling an onion.

Hey I like the onion metaphor. Let's start peeling away.


Breaking the onion of fair taxation, layer by layer, causes most people to get tears in the eyes.

0. The people who work in taxes are the protective layers outer layers of the onion. The workers who live off the teet of the Federal Tax System itself. 150,000 unionized IRS workers; Source www.nteu.org... ; 25,000 certified tax professionals Source www.natptax.com... ; unknown numbers of tax lobbyists, tax experts, corporate tax accountants and tax lawyers. The Department of Justice has it's own powerful lobby of tax related occupations; investigators, prosecutors, lawyers, judges, administrators, regulators.
1. This is the day to day administration of the tax process itself. Hard assets, real estate, buildings, hardware, computers, mail centers, call centers, are needed. Propaganda and outreach efforts. Source taxfoundation.org...
2. This layer is for the publications that must be re-printed every year due to different changes in the tax codes. Includes the Internal Revenue Manual which is every bit as sadistic as the tax code itself. Source www.irs.gov...
3. Title 26. The law that gets bigger every year since the 1930's.
4. Ultimately, there are signed contracts that begin with a Social Security Applications (SS-5's) "Applying for a Social Security Card is free!" . Source www.ssa.gov...

Nina Olsen, National Taxpayer Advocate asked "What do we want our tax system to look like?" Government leaders have the tools to slice this onion but many people will "cry" if they would try to do it.

I've written dozens of Certified/Return-Receipt-Requested letters to various IRS regional offices and getting a human response, positive or negative, is very rare. The IRS uses the mail systems to put fear into people by threat, duress and coercion; When I have repeatedly asked, in writing, for them to sign their statements under penalty of perjury they never do. It amounts to mail fraud. Source 18 USC § 1341 - FRAUDS AND SWINDLES Source www.law.cornell.edu...

The law is the law and it applies equally to the IRS employees.

Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, or to sell, dispose of, loan, exchange, alter, give away, distribute, supply, or furnish or procure for unlawful use any counterfeit or spurious coin, obligation, security, or other article, or anything represented to be or intimated or held out to be such counterfeit or spurious article, for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice or attempting so to do, places in any post office or authorized depository for mail matter, any matter or thing whatever to be sent or delivered by the Postal Service, or deposits or causes to be deposited any matter or thing whatever to be sent or delivered by any private or commercial interstate carrier, or takes or receives therefrom, any such matter or thing, or knowingly causes to be delivered by mail or such carrier according to the direction thereon, or at the place at which it is directed to be delivered by the person to whom it is addressed, any such matter or thing, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation occurs in relation to, or involving any benefit authorized, transported, transmitted, transferred, disbursed, or paid in connection with, a presidentially declared major disaster or emergency (as those terms are defined in section 102 of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act (42 U.S.C. 5122)), or affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.

Originally posted by crankyoldman
Correct me if I am wrong. My sense is that the signature of POP, is to throw the whole matter into a criminal court and out of a civil court. The paying is a civil matter "you owe me because we signed a contract and you haven't paid" but the clause of POP, in which the penalty is issued by the criminal courts, gives them jurisdiction they would not otherwise have. Which, leads to your 5th amendment point, you can't file without signing - get your money BACK, so by signing you wind up here instead of there.

That is exactly right. The jurat is there for convenience of the signee. It is used to avoid the need of a 3rd party (a Notary Public) certification on the document. If you signed it so you swore your oath on the penalty. They call it voluntary compliance.

However, negating the willfulness aspect of the crime is an adequate defense.
Source Woman Beats IRS in Court Over Income Tax Protest
Published August 13, 2003
Read more: www.foxnews.com...