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Priests will not report sex abuse in the confessional

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posted on Apr, 26 2012 @ 04:14 AM
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www.independent.ie...

There is a bit of a row brewing in Ireland between the Cathlic Church and the state.

The Justice Minister has stated that mandatory reporting of child sex abuse will apply to priests hearing confessions.

The response from the priests ;

Fr Sean McDonagh of the Association of Catholic Priests, which represents 800 clergymen, warned last night: "I certainly wouldn't be willing to break the seal of confession for anyone -- Alan Shatter particularly."

And Auxiliary Bishop of Dublin Raymond Field said: "The seal of the confessional is inviolable as far as I am concerned, and that's the end of the matter."


The law is due to be introduced later this year;

It puts the clergy on a direct collision course with Mr Shatter because new laws oblige every person to report suspected sexual abuse of children and vulnerable adults to gardai.

Mr Shatter said last night: "I would expect that if there was someone going to confession who was a serial sex abuser, I don't know how anyone could live with their conscience if they didn't refer that to the gardai."

His draft legislation, which is due to be introduced later this year, has already drawn a strong response from the church.


The church have previously thrown out priests for revealing details of confessions.

The church say they have no problem reporting child sex abuse , except when information is given in confession.

So the fact is that no matter what shocking and disgusting sex crimes you carry out against children you secret is safe in the catholic church confessional. You will also recieve absolution.

If the priests state they will report the offeneders then the offenders will not confess. But by providing absolution for the behaviour they are providing forgiveness for the act. A way out for the papaedophile.

The refusal to report sex abuse admitted in the confessional almost comes across as some sort of indirect endorsement of the behaviour.

Maybe I am stupid, but if someone knows they can confess to child sex abuse in a confessional without consequences , could this not lead to repetitive behaviour? They can recieve absolution for their sins and if they decide to carry out the action again they know they can return to confession?

www.independent.ie...




posted on Apr, 26 2012 @ 04:41 AM
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Originally posted by lacrimaererum
The church say they have no problem reporting child sex abuse ,


except when it is a church of Rome priest....



posted on Apr, 26 2012 @ 04:46 AM
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Woo, big surprise they don't want to go along with it. Sorry, religion doesn't get you out of the most heinous crimes out there... Too bad. Or was that why it was created?




posted on Apr, 26 2012 @ 05:37 AM
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A priest won't confess even a murder if given in confession ain't no surprise though when people go there to confess to GOD and not the government.



posted on Apr, 26 2012 @ 06:40 AM
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reply to post by lacrimaererum
 


"The church say they have no problem reporting child sex abuse , except when information is given in confession. "

Unless its one of theirs who is doing the abuse. I love it. The devil is captasin of the almighty Catholic church. Hope they all burn



posted on Apr, 26 2012 @ 07:06 AM
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Originally posted by majestic3
A priest won't confess even a murder if given in confession ain't no surprise though when people go there to confess to GOD and not the government.



Mr Shatter pointed out that there was also no exemption for the confessional in legislation passed back in 1998 requiring mandatory reporting of offences such as murder, kidnapping and bank robberies.

www.independent.ie...



posted on Apr, 26 2012 @ 07:16 AM
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This is not about sex abuse, priests dont report other crimes as well, and this is nothing new.

There surely cannot be any exception for any religion, so not reporting these crimes should stay illegal if mandatory reporting is the law.

But in practice, I think a "dont ask, dont tell" approach will be the end result.



posted on Apr, 26 2012 @ 07:27 AM
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Originally posted by lacrimaererum
The refusal to report sex abuse admitted in the confessional almost comes across as some sort of indirect endorsement of the behaviour.

Not at all.

The confessional is not a vehicle for a person to gain information in which to turn another person in for.
The purpose of confession is to get the person sinning to be sorry and to stop sinning.
A 'good confession' would include the priest telling the sinner to make restitution ...
in other words .. turn himself/herself in to the authorities and/or get mental health help.

If a pedophile confessed his/her crimes to you or me .. then yes we could turn that person in or help direct them to turn themselves in. But the job of the priest is totally different .. his job is to help the soul of the confessor who, as a pedophile, could easily be headed for hell.

To force priests to tell authorities what is told them in the confessional would kill confession.
That would do more harm than good. Like I said .. during a good confession, the priest would
help the confessor to turn himself/herself in and/or get mental health help. Without confession,
the pedophile would just keep on doing harm and there would be one less channel for that person
to go through to try to stop.



posted on Apr, 26 2012 @ 07:44 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


how you can you be so gullible when catholic priests have sexually abused children for decades and many more catholic priests covered up for them and hid this behaviour?

A priest can give absolution to a child sex abuser and not tell any authorities. He must keep it secret. He must protect the child abuser. Thats what God wants.

Your excuse might carry some weight if it wasn't for the horrific amount of abuse carried out by the Catholic church itself.



posted on Apr, 26 2012 @ 07:46 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan


The confessional is not a vehicle for a person to gain information in which to turn another person in for.

 


Is it just me that believes the entire reason confession was created was to get away with things, and then later used to dig dirt on people? I mean come on...


The entire Christian community assembled in the church, where the Bishop…sat upon his throne; and his priests, deacons and subdeacons arranged themselves on each side of him. The sinners were led barefoot into the midst of the congregation and prostrated themselves on the ground. They avowed what they had done, and the Bishop delivered judgment as to whether pardon would be granted and what penance was to be imposed (usually a year or more). Then they were walked to the doors of the Church and had to remain outside until they finished their penance.


Link

And....

I don't really think hundreds of years ago, given how closely the church was tied in with politics that the information through closed door confessions (when it began) wasn't used for some gain....
edit on 26-4-2012 by boncho because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 26 2012 @ 07:48 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan


To force priests to tell authorities what is told them in the confessional would kill confession. That would do more harm than good.

 


People existed before confession. Confession didn't exist before people.

Imagine that.




posted on Apr, 26 2012 @ 07:48 AM
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Originally posted by Maslo
This is not about sex abuse, priests dont report other crimes as well, and this is nothing new.



THis is totally about sex abuse crimes. Did you read the article?

There was a law passed in 1998 regarding other crimes;

Mr Shatter pointed out that there was also no exemption for the confessional in legislation passed back in 1998 requiring mandatory reporting of offences such as murder, kidnapping and bank robberies.
www.independent.ie...

This law that is about to be passed is specifically about sex abuse.



posted on Apr, 26 2012 @ 07:53 AM
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Does anyone know whether or not a priest, after hearing it confessed that a bomb was planted in the Vatican and set to detonate on a given date, would be obligated to inform those who would be affected?

I'm not Catholic and am not familiar with this type of minutae. I'm just trying to get a clue as to the boundaries within which confessions might be safely guarded.



posted on Apr, 26 2012 @ 08:02 AM
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Originally posted by lacrimaererum
how you can you be so gullible when catholic priests have sexually abused children for decades and many more catholic priests covered up for them and hid this behaviour?

How can you be so myopic .. when the fact is that VERY FEW Catholic priests were really pedophiles and the fact is that when a pedophile steps forward to confess, it is an opportunity for someone to be able to get that pedophile to turn himself in and/or get mental health help.

BTW ... children are much more likely to be sexually abused in a public school than in a Catholic church.
Another BTW ... the protestants also have pedophiles who have invaded their churches as well.
It's not a 'catholic thing'.

Don't be so myopic with anti-Catholic hate.
Confession is an OPPORTUNITY for getting the pedophile to stop.
If the pedophile didn't want to stop, he/she wouldn't be at confession to begin with.
The priest has an opportunity to build upon that fact.



posted on Apr, 26 2012 @ 08:03 AM
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Originally posted by chasingbrahman
Does anyone know whether or not a priest, after hearing it confessed that a bomb was planted in the Vatican and set to detonate on a given date, would be obligated to inform those who would be affected?

The priest could tell the Vatican that a bomb was set to go off.
The priest could NOT tell the Vatican (or anyone else) who confessed the crime.



posted on Apr, 26 2012 @ 08:07 AM
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Originally posted by boncho
People existed before confession. Confession didn't exist before people.
Imagine that.

Irrelevant. Imagine that.

The fact is that Confession exists now. Catholics believe that Jesus instituted Confession.
(Matthew 16:18). It doesn't matter if you or I believe in it. The fact is that they DO.
The rules of Confession are very clear ... the person is confessing and looking for help.
The priest is under obligation to that persons soul .. not to turning in that person seeking help.
Just as, in the old testament, David confessed to the one God chose, Catholics go and
confess to the ones (they believe) God has chosen to represent Him on earth.

If we buy into that is irrelevant. It's what they believe.
And it's an OPPORTUNITY for the priest to direct that sinner to repent and turn himself/herself in.



posted on Apr, 26 2012 @ 08:18 AM
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Thank you kindly FF! So it would be fair to state that there would be an effort to name a victim, but not the perpetrator.

So in that mode, I wonder if there might be room here for compromise. What if, upon confession of sexual abuse, the priest doesn't in any way reveal his source, but instead, provides police with the facts that they're aware of sexual abuse, if the abused is named then name them, and allow the police to contact the person abused and work within the legal system from that point forward. The priests would commit to revealing any identifying information of the victim only.

I can't believe there isn't a compromise within which priests may preserve the integrity of the confessional, while also preserving the integrity of a victim who continues to be sexually abused. Does the Catholic Church have an official stance on how it views its role in protecting its congregants? They can't just have a policy on protecting criminals...



posted on Apr, 26 2012 @ 08:24 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan


And it's an OPPORTUNITY for the priest to direct that sinner to repent and turn himself/herself in.

 


It's also an opportunity for guilty people to alleviate their guilt and feel redeemed. People wonder why religion attracts all the crazies, because of things like this where they can walk in a stone house as a monster and leave as a innocent child of god.

It's rather twisted.



posted on Apr, 26 2012 @ 08:25 AM
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reply to post by chasingbrahman


So in that mode, I wonder if there might be room here for compromise. What if, upon confession of sexual abuse, the priest doesn't in any way reveal his source, but instead, provides police with the facts that they're aware of sexual abuse, if the abused is named then name them, and allow the police to contact the person abused and work within the legal system from that point forward. The priests would commit to revealing any identifying information of the victim only.

 


Why don't the Police just wiretap the confessional booths?

Seems like there is enough evidence to justify a warrant....



posted on Apr, 26 2012 @ 08:27 AM
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reply to post by chasingbrahman
 

They aren't supposed to 'break the seal' by revealing what they learned in confession.
I'm pretty sure they are allowed to 'rescue' but not reveal who told them in confession.
IF I'm reading it all correctly. (I could be wrong).

Catechism of the Catholic Church - Confession

I have heard priests say things like ... "i have heard this or that in confession' .. but not revealing WHO told them. From what I'm reading, I think that is okay and not breaking the seal ... but like I said .. I could be wrong.

The priest can tell the person confessing that they receive no absolution unless, as a penance, they turn themselves in -


Satisfaction

1459 Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused.62 Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his sins. This satisfaction is also called "penance."

1460 The penance the confessor imposes must take into account the penitent's personal situation and must seek his spiritual good. It must correspond as far as possible with the gravity and nature of the sins committed. It can consist of prayer, an offering, works of mercy, service of neighbor, voluntary self-denial, sacrifices, and above all the patient acceptance of the cross we must bear. Such penances help configure us to Christ, who alone expiated our sins once for all. They allow us to become co-heirs with the risen Christ, "provided we suffer with him.


This is the exact wording of the church law regarding the 'seal of confession'.


1467 Given the delicacy and greatness of this ministry and the respect due to persons, the Church declares that every priest who hears confessions is bound under very severe penalties to keep absolute secrecy regarding the sins that his penitents have confessed to him. He can make no use of knowledge that confession gives him about penitents' lives.72 This secret, which admits of no exceptions, is called the "sacramental seal," because what the penitent has made known to the priest remains "sealed" by the sacrament.


If the priest hears the Vatican is to blow up and saves the Vatican, then it looks like it's okay to do because the priest is not making 'use of knowledge that confession gives him ABOUT PENITENTS LIVES'. It's making use of the knowledge, but the penitent is left out. So I think it's okay ...

But like I said ... I could be reading that wrong ....




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