Original Sin - Do You Understand What it Means?

reply to post by AQuestion


I was under the impression that the unforgivable sin was blasphemy of the holy spirit..
which might be kind of like what you said.....to know you are doing wrong and still doing it....
or considering that the holy spirit is the feminine part of god, it kind of makes more sense to me....
the feminine side of the human race, both within each of us, and as far as gender has been attacked, suppressed, subjugated, oppressed, ect...for a very, very long time. and well, till we get that one figured out, we cant' move foreward...so, there is no forgiveness in that sin. since the repercussions of it will reverberate throughout society in so many ways.

Originally posted by AQuestion
I have read many people who have posted that they don't accept religion because they don't understand why we should all be punished because someone ate a piece of fruit.

nope, i dont accept religion because i think its nuts to have a belief system based on a story book.
hey, replace jesus with a wizard and miracles with magic, and youve got yourseklf a best seller kid

Originally posted by icepack
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

He just passed to us a "sin nature" and to us it's not a matter of "if" but "when". Original sin doctrine holds that infants go to Hell.

it did, the vatican released a new set of rules a couple of years ago. now infants that are not baptized are not going to this waiting room before hell anymore.

Sucks for all the dead infants before that Vatican edict huh? Stop listening to what the whore says who is drunk with the blood from the saints. I hear it doesn't go too good for her in the book of Revelation. She's up to 18+ million dead Christians to date.

Originally posted by DaveNorris

Originally posted by AQuestion
I have read many people who have posted that they don't accept religion because they don't understand why we should all be punished because someone ate a piece of fruit.

nope, i dont accept religion because i think its nuts to have a belief system based on a story book.
hey, replace jesus with a wizard and miracles with magic, and youve got yourseklf a best seller kid

Everyone thinks it's crazy to have a belief system around a story book, we think the same thing.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Stop listening to what the whore says who is drunk with the blood from the saints. I hear it doesn't go too good for her in the book of Revelation. She's up to 18+ million dead Christians to date.

i have to say, i am not a fan of the catholic church. but why this hate ? there are bad things, but most people of the this church are people with good intentions. and they believe in jesus as their savior, like you, i guess.

reply to post by dawnstar


Dear dawnstar,

I was under the impression that the unforgivable sin was blasphemy of the holy spirit.. which might be kind of like what you said....

The holy spirit is taking on the mind of Christ. The mind of Christ is one of love and service to others. We are all born with it and separate from it as we define ourselves. To be born again is to reclaim that love and reject our selfish desires. To reject the holy spirit is to blaspheme. The greatest sin is to believe that you matter more than others or that any others do not matter at all. Peace.

Christian = Rich at sin

coincidence probably, but the fact is.....religion needs to be destroyed. It pits us humans against each other and sparks all sorts of controversy. The less time we spend deciphering the bible and the more time we spend abolishing all forms of written religion..........the better our future will be.

Lets start with the priests......off with their heads!!!!!

Originally posted by icepack
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Stop listening to what the whore says who is drunk with the blood from the saints. I hear it doesn't go too good for her in the book of Revelation. She's up to 18+ million dead Christians to date.

i have to say, i am not a fan of the catholic church. but why this hate ? there are bad things, but most people of the this church are people with good intentions. and they believe in jesus as their savior, like you, i guess.

I'm not talking to the laity, but the Nicolatians running it.

Nikos from the root "Nike" which means "to conquer", "laity", "the people"

'Whore" is a perverted false religion in the Bible, or people who partake in it are often called "fornicators". The true Bride isn't called a whore or fornicator, but "virgins".

And 18+ million dead is kinda crazy isn't it?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

And 18+ million dead is kinda crazy isn't it?

are you talking about the inquisition ?
are you sure, that nikolaus is the most worshipped saint ? what about saint george or saint peter ?
even if he was, saint nikolaus was a god-fearing and ascetic servant of jesus christ, why should that be bad in christian terms ?

Originally posted by icepack
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

And 18+ million dead is kinda crazy isn't it?

are you talking about the inquisition ?
are you sure, that nikolaus is the most worshipped saint ? what about saint george or saint peter ?
even if he was, saint nikolaus was a god-fearing and ascetic servant of jesus christ, why should that be bad in christian terms ?

Yes, 18+ mil killed in the Inquisitions. Revelation says the woman who rides the beast is "drunk with the blood of the saints".

And a "saint" in the Bible is a saved sinner.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

And a "saint" in the Bible is a saved sinner.

or a martyr ?

reply to post by AQuestion


This is the most reasonable and logical explanation I have ever seen for original sin.

What Was the Original Sin?

THIS question is far from academic. How so? Because Adam and Eve’s disobedience to God affected all future generations right down to our time. The Bible states: “Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.” (Romans 5:12) But how did the simple act of taking and eating fruit from a tree result in such tragic consequences?

When God created Adam and Eve, he settled them in a beautiful garden that was filled with edible vegetation and fruit-bearing trees. Only one tree was out of bounds—“the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.” Being free moral agents, Adam and Eve could choose to obey God or disobey him. Adam was warned, however, that “in the day you eat from [the tree of knowledge] you will positively die.”—Genesis 1:29; 2:17.

A Fitting Restriction

This one restriction caused no hardship; Adam and Eve could eat from all the other trees in the garden. (Genesis 2:16) Moreover, the prohibition attributed nothing improper to the couple, nor did it rob them of dignity. Had God forbidden such vile things as bestiality or murder, some could claim that perfect humans had certain base inclinations that needed to be restrained. Eating, however, was natural and proper.

Was the forbidden fruit sexual relations, as some have held? This view finds no support in Scripture. For one thing, when God made the prohibition, Adam was alone and evidently remained that way for a while. (Genesis 2:23) Second, God told Adam and Eve to “be fruitful and become many and fill the earth.” (Genesis 1:28) Certainly, he would not command them to break his law and then sentence them to death for doing so! (1 John 4:8) Third, Eve partook of the fruit before Adam and later gave some to her husband. (Genesis 3:6) Clearly, the fruit was not sex.

Eve wanted to be like God, deciding for herself what is good and bad

A Grasp at Moral Independence

The tree of knowledge was a literal tree. However, it represented God’s right as Ruler to decide what is good and bad for his human creation. To eat from the tree, therefore, was not just an act of theft—taking that which belonged to God—but also a presumptuous grasp at moral independence, or self-determination. Note that after lyingly telling Eve that if she and her husband ate the fruit, they ‘positively would not die,’ Satan asserted: “For God knows that in the very day of your eating from it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, knowing good and bad.”—Genesis 3:4, 5.

When they ate the fruit, however, Adam and Eve did not receive godlike enlightenment on good and bad. In fact, Eve said to God: “The serpent—it deceived me.” (Genesis 3:13) Still, she knew of God’s command, even restating it to the serpent, Satan’s mouthpiece. (Revelation 12:9) Hence, her act was one of willful disobedience. (Genesis 3:1-3) Adam, though, was not deceived. (1 Timothy 2:14) Instead of loyally obeying his Creator, he listened to his wife and followed her independent course.—Genesis 3:6, 17.

The forbidden fruit was not sexual relations

By asserting their independence, Adam and Eve irreparably damaged their relationship with Jehovah and inflicted sin’s imprint upon their organism, right to its genetic foundations. True, they lived for hundreds of years, but they began to die “in the day” of their sin, as a branch severed from a tree would. (Genesis 5:5) Moreover, for the first time, they sensed an internal disharmony. They felt naked and tried to hide from God. (Genesis 3:7, 8) They also felt guilt, insecurity, and shame. Their sin produced an upheaval within them, their consciences accusing them of wrongdoing.

To be true to himself and to his holy standards, God justly sentenced Adam and Eve to death and expelled them from the garden of Eden. (Genesis 3:19, 23, 24) Thus, Paradise, happiness, and everlasting life were lost, while sin, suffering, and death resulted. What a tragic development for the human race! However, immediately after sentencing the couple, God promised to undo all the harm resulting from their sin without compromising his own righteous standards.

Jehovah purposed to make it possible for the offspring of Adam and Eve to be freed from sin’s deadly grip. He accomplished this through Jesus Christ. (Genesis 3:15; Matthew 20:28; Galatians 3:16) Through him, God will eliminate sin and all its effects and will make the earth into a global paradise, just as he purposed in the beginning.—Luke 23:43; John 3:16.

link to article,
www.watchtower.org...

Originally posted by Lionhearte
reply to post by AQuestion

 

Couldn't have said it better myself. People who follow Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens are all under the impression that because Adam and Eve ate fruit, we're all paying for their sins.

Actually no. "Us" people are not under the impression original sin has to do with Adam and Eve eating the apple of knowledge.

We don't believe in Adam an Eve in the first place.

"Original sin" came from a smart, religious person who realised they could no longer control the people who were actually, good, honest individuals.

Priest : Come and pray to God for your sins, ask the church to forgive you.
Man : I'm a good honest person who's never told a lie and done nothing wrong. I'm sin free
Priest: ...
Preist : Ahh! But you have "Oirginal Sin" !
Man: What's that?
Priest: Sin you're born with, sin that dates back to your imperfect nature.
Priest: So... pay up!

That's a very condensed version of it. But yes, there is NO SUCH THING as original sin. It's yet another made up device to control the otherwise already good and clean individuals so the church can maintain its power. (shrug)

Originally posted by icepack
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

And a "saint" in the Bible is a saved sinner.

or a martyr ?

All saved sinners are saints. Martyrs also.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by icepack
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

And a "saint" in the Bible is a saved sinner.

or a martyr ?

All saved sinners are saints. Martyrs also.

So let me get this straight, "all men are equal" is regarded as a basic statement of human rights, but there is a hierarchy in the afterlife ?
Sounds mildly elitist to me and equates to :

A long and wicked life followed by five minutes of perfect grace gets you into Heaven. An equally long life of decent living and good works followed by one outburst of taking the name of the Lord in vain-- then have a heart attack at that moment and be damned for eternity. Is that the system?
--Robert A. Heinlein

reply to post by AQuestion


Fair enough, but that still leaves the debate open, because it doesn't answer the question:

who's fault was it that Adam sinned? his? or the Creator's for creating him that way?

And unfortunately, Christianity, or mainstream Christian teachings do not teach this the way Islam does. I have the right to compare since I'm Muslim and I find the Islamic explanation WAY more sensible.

And that is God is the only Perfect being, and everything that is His creation, will never be completely perfect. (Its important to note the definition of perfection here, as something that functions fully but not without weaknesses) He knowing this, still created mankind, knowing full well how or what he would do when given a choice. So God planned the whole thing, humans, earth, hell and heaven all of it in one go. He didn't just create us expecting us to obey him 100%. He expected us to NOT to obey him or at least forget some of His commands. He depended on it actually. So the question you need to ask yourself after this is: WHY? Why does God depend on us to make mistakes, to err, to be HUMAN?

If you guess the answer you'll win this million dollar check I'm holding in my hand (ok maybe not so real but humor me)

And if you do find the answer, you'll realize its not about sinning or not sinning. Its about something much more deeper than that.

Originally posted by Noncompatible

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by icepack
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

And a "saint" in the Bible is a saved sinner.

or a martyr ?

All saved sinners are saints. Martyrs also.

So let me get this straight, "all men are equal" is regarded as a basic statement of human rights, but there is a hierarchy in the afterlife ?
Sounds mildly elitist to me and equates to :

A long and wicked life followed by five minutes of perfect grace gets you into Heaven. An equally long life of decent living and good works followed by one outburst of taking the name of the Lord in vain-- then have a heart attack at that moment and be damned for eternity. Is that the system?
--Robert A. Heinlein

"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."
Proverbs 14:12

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."
Proverbs 14:12

I was thinking about how people seem to read the Bible a whole lot more as they get older; then it dawned on me - they're cramming for their final exam.
George Carlin 1:1

Originally posted by Noncompatible

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."
Proverbs 14:12

I was thinking about how people seem to read the Bible a whole lot more as they get older; then it dawned on me - they're cramming for their final exam.
George Carlin 1:1

Well, we know Carlin failed the final then.

The question of who was more responsible is kinda ridiculous. Adam and Eve were both responsible, and were both punished in different ways...


Genesis 3

16To the woman he said,

“I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”
17To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat of it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
18It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

And also...

The unforgivable sin, blaspheming the holy spirit, wasnt referring to the "original sin"....

Matthew 12:31–32
31 “Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
32 “Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Just thought these verses might shed some light.