Jesus Said When He Would Return to the Day

Originally posted by Parture

Originally posted by Mike.Ockizard
reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

 

Not saying that god is a murderer. My idea of god is the force from which life springs forth. Something like that anyway.

Its religion that places god at the scene of the crime. Relgion that puts the murder weapon in gods hand. Then christianity and the NT (as interpreted by the Roman empire) teels us we are born into sin and will burn in hell unless we accept the lord jesus christ as our "savior".

Not buyin it. If christ did exist (jury is still out), he was trying to send a diff message IMO.

So according to your response, that cute little brown baby born to a loving mother in a tribe cut off from knowledge of the cross, when he dies, its because god is doing him a favor?

(scatches head in bewilderment)

Why assume a child would be unsaved? We all need religion and we all have our own religion in our way. To deny this is not being honest with yourself. Whatever you are religious about that's your religion no matter how much you are its only follower.

Since the cross is a one time event in history, nobody is being cut off from it. If you accept the God of the mountains and stars, surely you will accept the Savior on the cross and thou shalt be saved.

I reject your religion because it does not agree with the proven religion of Christianity. That makes me sad that you reject religion yet engage in it. That is doubletalk.

"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world" (James 1.27).

edit on 30-4-2012 by Parture because: (no reason given)

Thats my point. How can someone accept this god of yours if they dont know about "him"? Plenty have come and gone from this reality without ever knowing about your religion. Where do they go? They still exists by the way, you know, the societies that know nothing of the bible. What happens to them when they die?

You are correct about my use of the word religion. I should have called it organized religion. What you call my "religion", is not fully formed in something I could put into words. This system of understanding about who I really am is not exclusive. No such thing as the hell depicted in christianity, no hierarchy making some better than others.

I choose not to follow a religion that became viable only after it was organized under the direction of a Roman emperor. Pretty clear to me it was corrupted by mans need to be in control. That said, there is a purer message in the gospels. Where things in the old testament come from is up for debate.

Originally posted by Parture

The Bible is not ok with killing people who work on the Sabbath today because we are no longer under the old covenant, and there is no Christian Sabbath

So, even though God said to put to death those that work on the Sabbath...we are no longer following his word? Where does God say he was wrong, and we should no longer follow his word? after all, it was God speaking to Moses...his words.

The word of God is the word of God.....you would think the Church would follow what he said.

Please show me where God said he was wrong, and that we should no longer kill people that work on the Sabbath.

Originally posted by gavron

Originally posted by Parture

The Bible is not ok with killing people who work on the Sabbath today because we are no longer under the old covenant, and there is no Christian Sabbath

So, even though God said to put to death those that work on the Sabbath...we are no longer following his word? Where does God say he was wrong, and we should no longer follow his word? after all, it was God speaking to Moses...his words.

The word of God is the word of God.....you would think the Church would follow what he said.

Please show me where God said he was wrong, and that we should no longer kill people that work on the Sabbath.

What was true just for Israel, not any other nation, and just under the old covenant doesn't apply today, because today we are under the new covenant and the Sabbath finds its fulfilment in Christ.

Let no man judge you for what days to keep or not to keep. "So don't let anyone condemn you for celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths" (Col. 2.16).

Originally posted by Mike.Ockizard
This reasoning troubles me. Just because you live in a barbaric age doesnt mean you should be destroyed to fix the barbaric system. Not all people are "bad" because of those that live during the same era. And best I can tell, religion teaches that their god wiped out not just a town or country, but the entire world. That means even those who lived far from the "wicked ones".

1.Never base your judgements of the ancient past upon societal circumstances of today.

Today, there are 7 billion humans on Earth. During the ancient days when the Almighty walked the Earth, there was hardly a million population then.


2. Much of the historical texts that you based your accusations are from the Hebrew historical Chronicles. The most relevant event when an entire world was wiped out came from the flood. The barbarism was beyond control. None would head the Almighty's teaching, saved one - Noah. He was the only one who followed civilisational teachings. Other humans - young and old, were beyond redemption, and thus had to be destroyed before they contaminate Noah and his family to barbaric existence.


3. As you based your accusations of it, the Sodamm and Gormarrah city destruction event will give you a better understanding of why it was necessary and the extraordinary circumstances the Almighty was prepared to give up on destroying those cities.

Lot was a devout man, and he prayed for the barbaric humans whom had indulge in all manner of vile vices in those 2 cities to be spared. He even negotiated with our Creator that should he find a few 'good men', our Creator would spare those cities. It was agreed, but lot reneged and whittle down to finding 1 'good man' which our Creator even readily agreed.

Unfortunately, none of those citizens - young or old, rich or poor, were prepared to give up on their barbaric existence. And thus, in the end, what had to be done was done, in order that those innocent in other cities would not be contaminated.


4. Over time, thanks to the work of good men whom increased with population growth around the world, our Creator had stayed his hand, and continued to send divine teachers to help guide us, for He loved us and was willing to be patient.

Should today the ambassador of China is murdered on public order by the US President, rest assured China will wage war upon USA immediately with quarter given. In roman times, both secular and monarchial era, should even just one roman get murdered in a non rome town, legions would be sent to annihilate that town and nation.

The Messiah, sent by our Creator, was publically murdered, but fortunately, the Messiah loved us humanity as much as our Creator, and pleaded Him to forgive our ancestors for they knew not what they did.

Unlike mortal man, our Creator stayed his hand, but patience do have their limits. How long can humanity, with free will continue to deny Him and His path for us, but continue to misuse His name and guidance to impose barbarism and enslavement upon the world?


6. As for the sabbath issue, one must UNDERSTAND WHY the reason for the law, in order to comprehend its significance, rather than to use it pettily as another accusation against Him.

Unlike us this educated present generation, our first ancestors were uneducated and knew not how to progress and evolve. That law was created because our Creator did not create robots but humans, to live, love and propagate. If our ancestors were to work everyday, there would be no time to live, let alone progress. More so when many more turned barbaric and ambitious, enslaving others.

That law was the first UNION cannon for mankind, and strictly adhered to so that no mortal king or principalities may play around with mankind.

As long as we can find the time to live, love and propagate sincerely and honestly, then mankind will continue. Unfortunately, looking at today's corporate enslavement of mankind worldwide, where 24/7 is the working norm to put food on the table with slave wages, that law will be one of many that we as a society had failed and stand accused for His judgement.


5. I am honoured that there are more today in these times whom are seeking for answers to expunge their ignorances over religion. It is my hope that more may do so. But more important of all is that they find the time and effort to read up and comprehend religious texts first, then have face to face fellowship with others, not necessarily in a temple institution, but homes, parks, cafes would be great, to share and exchange and learn. Where 2 or more are gathered in the name of the Messiah, he will be amongst them, as promised by the Messiah.

Knowledge and the truth will set us free....

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
entire world was wiped out came from the flood.

It was a local flood. The flood in Gen. 1.2 was global.

Originally posted by Parture
What was true just for Israel, not any other nation, and just under the old covenant doesn't apply today, because today we are under the new covenant and the Sabbath finds its fulfilment in Christ.]

...and yet you cannot find where God says that he was wrong? That we don't need to abide by his word?

Where does God say we no longer have to kill those that work on the Sabbath? Are you saying we can just ignore parts of the bible now? We can steal if we want to now because its the new covenant? We can commit adultery? We can kill?

Originally posted by gavron
...and yet you cannot find where God says that he was wrong? That we don't need to abide by his word?

Where does God say we no longer have to kill those that work on the Sabbath? Are you saying we can just ignore parts of the bible now? We can steal if we want to now because its the new covenant? We can commit adultery? We can kill?

No judging includes no killing for judging. "Let no man therefore judge you in respect of sabbath days" (Col. 2.16).

The reason there is no Sabbath today is because the Sabbath was a sign for the Jews in thier covenant with God until its fulfilment when Christ arrived.

As for stealing that you mentioned, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Nor thieves" (1 Cor. 6.9,10).

reply to post by Parture


I'm curious why you cannot answer my question? Where is it written that God said to no longer kill those who work on the Sabbath?

Simple question, Parture. Why are you unable to answer it?

Originally posted by gavron
I'm curious why you cannot answer my question? Where is it written that God said to no longer kill those who work on the Sabbath?

Simple question, Parture. Why are you unable to answer it?

I gave the verse where it is written. Why do you avoid the answer?

1.Never base your judgements of the ancient past upon societal circumstances of today.

No judgement passed on the ancient past. Simply pointing out what the Bible says happened and applying it to what some say is the case today, or at least where we are headed. With 7billion people on the planet and I guestimate somewhere maybe 25-30% being christians then once they die, due to a lack of accepting christ as their lord and savior etc., that means upwards of 4.9 billion going to hell. No matter if some of those 4.9b+ are actually more well behaved, spiritually pure or whatever than many of the people who profess that they are "born again". Does not compute how a loving gods judgement can be handed down with so little reasoning thought. I give god, or whatever you want to call it, more credit than to create such a corruptable model for "salvation".

2. Much of the historical texts that you based your accusations are from the Hebrew historical Chronicles.

No accusation was made or intended. Taking an objective view of the Old Testament I see many events, entities and symbolism that cannot be interpreted literally. If it is interpreted literally then the whole thing gets turned on its head (universe in seven days, giants etc.). But thats another thread. As far as the flood and Noah, there are stories of great floods in other cultures. Cultures that are geographically seperate from mesopotamia. These cultures talk of the flood and say their ancestors survived it. So where does that leave Noah? The only pure man in his area?

3. As you based your accusations of it, the Sodamm and Gormarrah city destruction event will give you a better understanding of why it was necessary and the extraordinary circumstances the Almighty was prepared to give up on destroying those cities.

Again, accusation probably not the word you are looking for(?) In that story, the "bad" guys confront and called out to him saying, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them (KJV: know them, RSV: know them, NIV: can have sex with them, NJB: can have intercourse with them)."

Now we have the translation to deal with first. Hopefully the crowd wanted to simply know who they were(?) Anyhow, Lot tries to appease them:
"In response, Lot refuses to give his guests to the inhabitants of Sodom and, instead, offers them his two virgin daughters to "do to them whatever you like." According to what I found doing my research, it was common in those days for a father to offer his daughters to visitors. Of course this was before it was determined by our society to be cruel and distateful. But how would the writers know that. If Lot was the holiest, then it really doesnt make sense that he would do something so cruel to his daughters. Saying it is a different set of rules now is a cop-out. If the Bible is the basis for all the rules, then where in the bible did god change his mine about prostituting your children?

4. Over time, thanks to the work of good men whom increased with population growth around the world, our Creator had stayed his hand, and continued to send divine teachers to help guide us, for He loved us and was willing to be patient.

Could some of those divine teachers been the likes of Buddha? Mohammed? ...

The Messiah, sent by our Creator, was publically murdered, but fortunately, the Messiah loved us humanity as much as our Creator, and pleaded Him to forgive our ancestors for they knew not what they did.

So, god made a mistake? Why didnt he know that? Why did it take christ to tell him? God is supposed to be all knowing. That god sounds like more of a king or tyrant taking the advice of council

As for the sabbath, I wont go there. Just another example that taken literally just doesnt make sense. Symbolically or figuratively it takes on new meaning. Think about it.

But more important of all is that they find the time and effort to read up and comprehend religious texts first

Before reading "religious texts" or rather, INSTEAD of reading them, study the translations from the original text and use your own judgement, not the dogma that the church puts out there. Before you can learn anything you need to be objective. Listen to the "god" thats inside of you. If you truly want the truth, then stop listening to other people, even me. Be your own person.

Good luck!!

reply to post by Parture


Thats the trouble. Your version of god expects us to be wizards and translating what he really means. If this is true, then only smart/educated people go to heaven.

"Let no man therefore judge you in respect of sabbath days" (Col. 2.16)

I read that section and to me it is saying that we shouldnt judge others. Period. I guess god will take care of killing them. Why would he make this stuff so complicated???

God never said not to judge, but that what you judge by you will be guilty of if you commit the same error.

"Let no man therefore judge you in respect of sabbath days" (Col. 2.16) means there is no sabbath day for Christians because the Sabbath was for the Jews as a covenant with God they were the chosen ones and it is fulfilled in Christ now that their Messiah is came. So there is no more Sabbath even for the Jewish nation of Israel. The purpose of the Sabbath was to wait for that rest in Christ by the Holy Spirit indwelling.

reply to post by Parture


I'm no bible scholar but a quick look says that the verse you refer to:

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day."

is talking about judging others in general. This really drives my point home. When your judgement day comes, do they forgive you if you translated it wrong? Burn in hell for an innocent mis-understanding?

Originally posted by Mike.Ockizard
reply to post by Parture

 

I'm no bible scholar but a quick look says that the verse you refer to:

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day."

is talking about judging others in general. This really drives my point home. When your judgement day comes, do they forgive you if you translated it wrong? Burn in hell for an innocent mis-understanding?

Since we can eat swine or no swine, this or that food, drink alcohol or abstain, have this or not have that festival, keep this moon or that moon celebration, or this day of rest or that day of rest, there is no requirement in this dispensation of grace.

But if you try to impose these things on others or say the word of God requires them then you are in the wrong.

The Sabbath is no longer. Christians are not required to fellowship any particular day or required not to work on a particular day.

reply to post by Parture


Use sound reasoning, not speech that tries to sound official. It doesnt say that anywhere in the bible. What version do you read?

reply to post by Parture


Come to think of it, what happens to those who dont know how to read? Do they go to hell because someone who takes the bible all wrong teaches them lies?

Originally posted by Mike.Ockizard

Come to think of it, what happens to those who dont know how to read? Do they go to hell because someone who takes the bible all wrong teaches them lies?

Your answer is found in Romans 1.20. If you accept the God of the mountains and stars who proves Himself by simply observing nature, surely you will accept the Son. If you accepted this God surely you would accept the Son even if someome misread the word of God to you.

Next question.

Where's the challenge? Challenge me.

Originally posted by Parture
Where's the challenge? Challenge me.

OK....how about Deuteronomy, chapter 13 :

Douay-Rheims Bible Deuteronomy chapter 13.

basically if you live in a city that has a buddhist temple, or a Mosque, you must kill everyone there, and burn the entire city to the ground.

Or this..

Samuel chapter 6 verse 6
[

6] And when they came to the floor of Nachon, Oza put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it: because the oxen kicked and made it lean aside. [7] And the indignation of the Lord was enkindled against Oza, and he struck him for his rashness: and he died there before the ark of God. [8] And David was grieved because the Lord had struck Oza, and the name of that place was called: The striking of Oza, to this day

So...Oza tries to keep the Ark from tipping due to the oxen kicking the cart.....and God instead of thanking him for steadying the Ark, he stikes him down, killing him.

Or, how about God commanding you to kill children:

Ezekiel chapter 9

[4] And the Lord said to him: Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem: and mark Thau upon the foreheads of the men that sigh, and mourn for all the abominations that are committed in the midst thereof. [5] And to the others he said in my hearing: Go ye after him through the city, and strike: let not your eyes spare, nor be ye moved with pity. [6] Utterly destroy old and young, maidens, children and women: but upon whomsoever you shall see Thau, kill him not, and begin ye at my sanctuary. So they began at the ancient men who were before the house. [7] And he said to them: Defile the house, and ill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew them that were in the city. [8] And the slaughter being ended I was left: and I fell upon my face, and crying, I said: Alas, alas, alas, O Lord God, wilt thou then destroy all the remnant of Israel, by pouring out thy fury upon Jerusalem? [9] And he said to me: The iniquity of the house of Israel, and of Juda, is exceeding great, and the land is filled with blood, and the city is filled with perverseness: for they have said: The Lord hath forsaken the earth, and the Lord seeth not. [10] Therefore neither shall my eye spare, nor will I have pity:

What a loving god, eh

Originally posted by gavron
how about Deuteronomy, chapter 13 :
basically if you live in a city that has a buddhist temple, or a Mosque, you must kill everyone there, and burn the entire city to the ground.

The answer is found in Deut. 13.17,18. "Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a large nation, just as he swore to your ancestors. The LORD your God will be merciful only if you listen to his voice and keep all his commands that I am giving you today, doing what pleases him."

Israel became a large nation from the Euphrates River to the Gulf of Aqaba. But they fell into sin, did not do God's will, and went into exhile. The prophecy of Ezekiel on his side for 390 days takes us to exactly the month of May, 1948. biblocality.com...

If ancient Israel did not do this to these heathens, they would cease to exist as a nation because there was so much temptation around them to worship other gods and engage in child sacrifices or other detestable things. That was then, this is now. It was the necessary response to the condition back then. Now human sacrifices are not something that usually occurs except for rare cases like Brittany Murphy and her husband, www.youtube.com... Therefore, we don't tear down today Buddhist Temples. Don't be self-centered in your own day and age but learn to put yourself in the shoes of people from a different time period. Different circumstances require a different response. Those evil nations were killed off, but Israel remains.

If Israel ceased to exist, they would not bring in the Messiah and we would all be doomed with no way to be saved.

Your other issues follow the sampe principle how the dispensation of the law has a different response than under the dispensation of grace. The grace in this new covenant exhibits a different response, because Christians can live in society without being killed off unlike the condition in Canaan where the Jews always had to look over their shoulder from being attacked by evil tribes in Canaan.

An analogy might give you a feel for the situation back then. Your next door neighbor breaks into your house to steal your child to engage in child sacrifice, throwing your child into the fiery mouth of the god Molech. What's the correct approach? To blame people for killing those murderers, or to gather up 10 of your buddies and go into their homes to kill them off so they can't do that anymore?

Your selfish self causes you to be incompassionate and without empathy for the situation of the day.