So you believe in Jesus.. But which Jesus?

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by CrimsonKapital

 

YOU are NOT Gods punishment!

You are his blessing... so the foolish can learn

Thankyou, at least someone understands and I truly believe that to be the reason as well.

Originally posted by Starchild23
...
Last I knew, animals weren't exactly concerned with "right" and "wrong" so much as surviving...plain and simple.

I don't want to get off-topic, but here is an article about rat empathy. Empathy is probably the basis of morality. In many ways animals are more God-like than humans IMO.

Psychologists at the University of Chicago conducted a series of experiments in which they put one rat inside a clear cage which could only be sprung from the outside. They left another rat to roam free outside the cage for an hour at a time. The free rat initially circled the cage, attempting to dig beneath it or bite through it. After several times of seeing its trapped cohort, the roaming rat learned how to open the cage and free the other rat. "It's very obvious that it is intentional," says study coauthor Inbal Ben-Ami Bartal. "They walk right up to the door and open the door." After the trapped rat was freed, both animals engaged in excited running.

and

The rats received no reward for rescuing their caged cohorts. In one part of the experiment, food was actually offered as an alternative. Roaming rats were presented with two cages, one with a trapped rat another containing chocolate chips. "These rats adore their chocolate," Bartal notes. Researchers were surprised to observe that the rats were equally likely to free their fellow rodent as they were to open the cage with the chocolate.

Not only that, the rats engaged in sharing. "The most shocking thing is they left some of the chocolate for the other rat," Bartal says. The rescuer rats left some chocolate for their newly freed fellow rodents in more than half of the trials. "It's not like they missed a chocolate," Bartal says. "They actually carried it out of the restrainer sometimes but did not eat it."

Rat Empathy

reply to post by Lionhearte

It just seems like you are cherry picking for some reason, that's why I'm asking. You seem intent on making it known that Jesus never claimed he was God in the flesh, or that the words of John or Thomas or anything other than Jesus himself isn't valid. So, you either only believe certain parts of the Bible as divinely inspired, or you interpret the details differently to such great degree, that either way, it's cherry picking.

Im not going to explain cherry picking everytime someone accuses me of it... think whatever you like...

I take every verse in the context of the chapter... but it also depends on who is speaking... John said "the word was God" and "the word became flesh and dwelt among us" Jesus said nothing of the sort...

Again, he did not ever claim to be God... He did say he did nothing of himself...

John 14:10
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, HE doeth the works.

Like i've said before... IF you read his words his story is clear... He explains who he was, what he was there to do, where he came from and where hes headed... but within the books where you find his words, you also find his followers words... and they are not always correct... Plus it can be clearly shown that they did not understand him as he hoped...

When Jesus says to the Jews, "I AM", he was declaring to be God. In context, he says "Before Abraham was born." - keyword being BEFORE, past tense - "I AM" - present tense.

Incorrect...

I AM is the source... where all life comes from... That was not a declaration of him being God...It meant life is eternal... he identifies himself with the eternal. As he did throughout the books... because as he said, he was "the son of God"... Unlike mostly everyone, he remembered being with God, in his presence. He was sent by God to show us the path... He was Not God in the flesh... he would have said so, its as simple as that...

It's later confirmed that the Jews knew EXACTLY what Jesus meant, in John 10:33 - They answered,
We do not want to stone you because of any good deeds, but because of your blasphemy! You are only a man, but you are trying to make yourself God!

Glad you brought up that passage so i didn't have to...

Lets explore this passage... Ask yourself, why does he question the jews here... and note what he was questioning at this moment...

31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Do you see the question mark? Hes asking them why they want to stone him for saying he was "the son of God"... Why would he quesiton them if he called himself God?

Simple explaination... He never claimed to be God... Not one time...

No, you're calling God himself a liar. The Bible is the written work of God, and it very clearly says Jesus is God, in plain text.

Incorrect... x3

The bible isn't "the written work of God"... if it was there would be no mistakes, no contradictions...

IT... says very clearly Jesus was God... Jesus said very clearly he was not God, but the son of God...

And i didn't call God a liar... i said people who call Jesus "God" call him a liar by omission...

He has made it known.. very clearly.. There's a reason the entire Church believes he was God in the flesh, because God made it known.

Why would i care what any church believes?

And that is called a circular arguement... The bible is correct because the bible says so...

This ideal is based on an assumption... And is basically summed up as a competition between religions... Our God walked among us... so hes better then yours...

Who did Jesus pray to? Himself? or his Father?

Who did he say his words came from? Himself? or his Father?

Do you ever see him speak about himself? Or about the ONE who sent him?

Read this...John 17

Then tell me Jesus is talking to himself...

One God my friend.... NOT three... NOT three equals one....

ONE true God... And Jesus is Not him... Jesus was his son...

reply to post by Akragon


Seems like you're cherry picking now. I just did a quick google search...and guess what I found?

Isaiah 44:24 - (God created the world by His self alone)
John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

But here's the one that really gets me...and there's really only one meaning to this.

John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”

Want some more?

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

Ah, that one looks familiar. You really should stop quoting out of context, because now we see that he actually claimed to be one with God. In fact, he says that at that time, he still IS one with God. Therefore, it makes perfect sense to say that he said, "I am God."

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Oh, dear...see, even if it is true that they called him God, and he never claimed it himself, he still lied...by allowing them to retain that impression. The only way someone retains that impression is if you desire them to have it. Indirectly, you have asserted that you are god, by not quelling their praise.

Otherwise, he would have pointed out that he was not god. And very rarely, if ever (I am not an expert) in the Bible does he say, "I am not god." But even if he did, more often that that did he allow the claims of his being God to continue. He supported the claims by not squashing them, and that is effectively a confirmation.

Your whole argument has been shot down. What say ye to this?

I say call him God if you choose to...

I will not... i know better...

Believe he claimed to be God... it matters not to me, i've already said my piece on those scriptures you quoted... clearly you didn't notice...

He never claimed equality to God, others did... he never claimed to be God... others made that claim, he did not...

In every single instance he speaks of "the Father" he speaks of two seperate entities... I and my father are one, means he is of the essence of his father... Just as you are the essence of your mother and father...

And again im not going to explain what cherry picking is to everyone who accuses me of it... and by the way, you are actually cherry picking with those verses... Take one verse from a chapter and give it your own meaning way to go...

He was the son of God, as he said..... Not God in the flesh as john said...

Don't believe me? I really don't care either way... not to mention of course you add nothing to the topic that i haven't covered in 10 different threads about Jesus being God.

So don't think you're presenting new information

Originally posted by Iason321
reply to post by Daemonicon

 

Any single entity claiming to have the "actual" interpretation of the Bible is wrong,

You have to come to your own conclusions, and if you've truly studied the Bible, you can come to no other conclusion than the ones presented in this video.

If you've come to other conclusions, you've failed Gods test.

Awww crap, I'm doomed to hell because I came to an incorrect conclusion. I shall suffer for all eternity because I circled A instead of B on Gods multiple choice test!

You might want to be very careful about making God's decisions for him... It is not for you, mere mortal, to understand who has failed and who has not. To make such ascertations is to disqualify yourself from even taking such a "test".

reply to post by Akragon


Then why do so many Christians say that he was god in the flesh?

reply to post by 3n19m470


Oh, I know that if there is a hell as described and designated in the Bible, I am going to it.

I burned a Bible a couple of days ago and excreted upon the ashes...if there is a Hell, and I'm not already there, I've bought a one-way express ticket straight to those gates. There's no turning back for me now, because unless I'm proven wrong beyond all semblance of a doubt, I'm not apologizing or repenting for such "blasphemy".

I guess I'll find out, won't I?

reply to post by Starchild23


Its not to late, it just show's how much you despise the truth. Whilst your heart still beats God is giving you time to repent and put your trust in him.

Originally posted by RevelationGeneration
reply to post by Starchild23

 

Its not to late, it just show's how much you despise the truth. Whilst your heart still beats God is giving you time to repent and put your trust in him.

Forget him. He knows the word he has heard the message, leave him to his destiny. If Yeshua wants him he will give him revelation. Shake the dust off your shoes for a judgement against them and be done with them.

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by Akragon

 

Then why do so many Christians say that he was god in the flesh?

Honestly... why would i care what "christians" say about him... Clearly they don't read his words... They're only found in four books within the bible... Most Christians side with paul either way...

As far as i've found, most christians don't even know their own lord...

He said "IF you love me keep my commandments".... i would say 90% of them don't even know what that means... and even less follow them.

Now i can't claim those to be actual stats.... but from what i've seen... i'd say thats pretty accurate