Ex-CIA Officer Who Destroyed Waterboarding Videos: Torturers "Disgusted" at Being Labeled "Tortur

Originally posted by AlchemicalBinoculars

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
ive honestly thought about this long and hard, and Ive personally come to a conclusion.

What gets better results, torture, or the fear of torture? Anyone knowledgeable of the subject will tell you that it is the fear that does it. Someone will tell you whatever they think you want to hear when they are being tortured. Theyll tell the TRUTH to avoid being tortured.

That said, I believe ALL of this waterboarding stuff is about putting the idea out there that america tortures. Its about putting that fear into our 'enemies'.

We have and probably do waterboard. A technique that pre-dates WW1.

I can attest first hand that torturing works, it gets information. The problem is deciphering which information is truthful and which is cowchips.

Torture is used to get information when information is not forthcoming or is known to be untruthful. I have never seen torture used by intelligence officers with half a grain of duty that used it when it was not deemed necessary.

oh absolutely. Dont get me wrong, Im not saying it doesnt take place. Im saying that there is a reason that it is so heavily covered in the media.

I find it interesting that you say it works, then follow that up by saying that much of the information is garbage. Which was my point. As I said, people will tell you all sorts of stuff when they are being tortured. That doesnt mean they are telling the truth.

And if torturing does not produce the truth, how can you say it works??

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

And if torturing does not produce the truth, how can you say it works??

I have seen it produce the truth. The problem is, as I said, it produces truth and untruth and one has to dig out the bull from the chit.

But when a combatant is not saying anything, something is better than nothing.

Originally posted by AlchemicalBinoculars

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

And if torturing does not produce the truth, how can you say it works??

I have seen it produce the truth. The problem is, as I said, it produces truth and untruth and one has to dig out the bull from the chit.

But when a combatant is not saying anything, something is better than nothing.

again, thats my point. If it doesnt produce only truth, then how can it be said to be any more effective than other methods?

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

again, thats my point. If it doesnt produce only truth, then how can it be said to be any more effective than other methods?

Entirely depends on the circumstances. You want information from an under 18yo combatant, you rarely need torture, you scare the chit out of him.

Veteran intelligence agent-combatants may require torture. They certainly aren't going to often give [dis]info readily.

So what happens is that torture is used across the board all too often without exception to circumstance.

Originally posted by AlchemicalBinoculars

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

again, thats my point. If it doesnt produce only truth, then how can it be said to be any more effective than other methods?

Entirely depends on the circumstances. You want information from an under 18yo combatant, you rarely need torture, you scare the chit out of him.

Veteran intelligence agent-combatants may require torture. They certainly aren't going to often give [dis]info readily.

So what happens is that torture is used across the board all too often without exception to circumstance.

Which brings me back to my original point-that I believe all of this is about putting the fear into the minds of our 'enemies' that we will torture them. The fear of torture is FAR more effective than torture itself.

Torture may work on some, it may not on others. It is an extremely in-efficient method. But just the idea that it can be done is a psychological weapon.

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Which brings me back to my original point-that I believe all of this is about putting the fear into the minds of our 'enemies' that we will torture them. The fear of torture is FAR more effective than torture itself.

Torture may work on some, it may not on others. It is an extremely in-efficient method. But just the idea that it can be done is a psychological weapon.

The media loves torture. The military and the intelligence community loves that the media covers torture. No problem. That has a far and sweeping effect.

Where I disagree is that ime torture is very efficient..,in the right circumstances...in getting truth. There is much propaganda that says it is not but only personal experience can effectively measure that assumption.

Its torture.
But for all of you that says its not I wonder what you would say if they did it to you oryour kids.
That a-hole man cow used to make light of it to til he got water boarded for ten secs.
I guess as long as it gives you a false sence of security its ok.
Its always amazed me that people were shocked that this could happen givin americas history.

team america f#ck yeah.

Rendition/Tortured has been used in this country every day since the Johnson administration

it only became a political talking point with the last decade.

And is still being used.

But then agian people always love to crucify the CIA ever stopped to think what happens to them abroad?

Not a pretty sight in that and Cia operative are tortured part of their training.

Originally posted by QQXXw
Waterboarding is not even torture, I would file in under special investigative techniques

What is more humane? to send a person to military prison for 10 years on suspicion that that they are an enemy of the United States or to waterboard them for 10 minutes and find out if they are really telling the truth on not ?

edit on 25-4-2012 by QQXXw because: (no reason given)

Whoa buddy, what are you smoking? Water torture is very real and very old. Ever heard of Chinese water torture? Their water torture is tame compared to water boarding. Just because the US Govt doesn't label it as torture doesn't mean it's not ......

And what makes you think the alleged terrorists who are water boarded are ever free to go?

reply to post by QQXXw


The Fascists US Regime we live under has all kinds of ways of twisting words and definitions they use to justify their actions.
Like collateral damage for example, which is still killing innocent people, especially when you know innocents will die, by dropping bombs all over.

Sorry, God said thou shall not kill, and he made no exceptions.

The true definition of torture regardless of what the spin doctors say is:

To gain information via various methods such as
1) Causing mental anguish.
2) Inflicting physical pain
3) Extreme anguish to the body or mind.

From the year 1426, another definition given is:
To inflict pain, agony, anguish or torment.

reply to post by kn0wh0w


He is ex-CIA and he wrote a book.

“I cannot tell you how disgusted my former colleagues and I felt to hear ourselves labeled ‘torturers’ by the president of the United States,” Rodriguez writes in his book, “Hard Measures,” which the Associated Press previewed in a new report. Source www.commondreams.org...

He is trying to sell his book. He would not be allowed to publish this book if the CIA was unaware of it. Therefore, this book should be considered CIA propaganda, censored by the CIA and full of CIA bull # from cover to cover.

Originally posted by kn0wh0w

Ex-CIA Officer Who Destroyed Waterboarding Videos: Torturers "Disgusted" at Being Labeled "Torturers"

www.commondreams.org

Former CIA officer, Jose Rodriguez on waterboarding tape destruction: ‘Just getting rid of some ugly visuals’

The former CIA officer who ordered the destruction of videotaped interrogations which showed the torture of Abu Zubaydah and Abd al-Nashiri in a secret CIA prison in Thailand in 2002, says he did so because he worried about the global repercussions if the footage leaked out and wanted to get "rid of some ugly visuals.”

(visit the link for the full news article)

The mentally deranged NEVER believe they are actually doing wrong.

The psychology of these people leads them to believe that they can do anything they want to any Human, they just need to be able to claim it was for the "greater good".
Hitler believed he was acting for the "greater good" too.

This sick individual is no different to any other psychopath who devalues Human life as a career choice.

reply to post by kn0wh0w

Am I alone in thinking that this man has a karmic debt beyond anything most could imagine???

Perhaps of all the characterizations I've seen applied to these people who are told they can "extract" the truth from 'anyone,' the most haunting is the idea that in order to accomplish this, three things are required:

1. A completely narcissistic notion that you are expertly superior to the subject.
   
2. The capacity to separate yourself from the emotional repugnance of the act.
   
3. A firm belief that "The ends justifies the means."
   

It concerns me that some of these are also prime descriptors of sociopaths. I understand, as I have stated before, that circumstances can compel people to unthinkable things. So I must wonder about those who do this - as a career.

Originally posted by MagesticEsoteric
reply to post by kn0wh0w

 

Am I alone in thinking that this man has a karmic debt beyond anything most could imagine???

He was ex-CIA. He might be anyone of us. Why should we believe anything taken from his book -- we know that the CIA has reviewed his book and approved the publication of it.

I'm reading a different ex-CIA book right now titled "The Human Factor - Inside the CIA's dysfunctional intelligence culture." by Ishmael Jones (fake name, of course). Source material here www.ishmaeljones.com...

It would be premature for me to conclude that these ex-CIA books are nothing but fictionalized accounts of unverifiable events. I haven't finished reading Ishmael yet.

Originally posted by SayonaraJupiter

It would be premature for me to conclude that these ex-CIA books are nothing but fictionalized accounts of unverifiable events. I haven't finished reading Ishmael yet.

There's a lot of that going around since the 20th Century... give it some thought. Tell me, can you narrow down where that started? I think maybe the 50's but I might be naively mistaken.

Originally posted by MaxmarsI am certain that I risk offending you, but it is a risk I will take.

I do not offend easy – I respect that to the layperson enhanced interrogation may seem harsh. Also, the profession of arms is not for everyone. Not everyone can deal with the circumstances of combat in which they may find themselves.

Originally posted by MaxmarsYour 'training' experiences with water boarding are unlikely to be relevant... unless you are prepared to tell us that you didn't know you were being trained and it lasted for more than 10 minutes.

Well, I don’t know if you went to SERE school or not but I assure you may know its “training” but I assure you it is real enough.

Originally posted by MaxmarsAbject fear of restraint and suffocation only have true experiential impact if they are done "for real."

OK then let me know where you are in U2U and I will come conduct a training exercise in resistance to interrogation and we’ll see if I can’t really induce panic and fear… I conducted R2I training in the US and in England also for SF, Brits in the Regiment, and other operators in special mission units. I guarantee for men who were “harder than woodpecker lips” we managed to take each one to his breaking point – in training. These are men trained in the toughest schools and given the hardest missions i doubt you would fair better.

Originally posted by MaxmarsBut as I said, perhaps they gave you a "training" secret you were not to divulge... how long did you last?

I really can’t remember how many days or hours –not many since the trainers can make time seem infinite. Longer than some not as long as others but I was deemed to have “passed”. My personal weakness was enclosed spaces – didn’t take them long to figure it out either.

Originally posted by MaxmarsI have some small modicum of knowledge in POW training... yes you will talk - if that is the objective. But most captors are not moronic enough to think that foot soldiers and those likely to be captured actually have 'essential - time critical' information which merits breaking international law...

On this point you are correct – certainly you don’t think we are off water boarding all the foot soldiers (or their equivalents) do you? Enhanced interrogation is only done on key individuals after all other methods have been tried. Do you realize what level of authorization one needs to conduct a session? You don’t have Soldiers or even Generals (or anyone in between) making the decision to use water boarding. I have used it only in controlled situations and under intense supervision by medical personnel who cab, will and have pulled the plug on an operation if they think the subject is going to endure permanent harm.

Originally posted by MaxmarsI don't go around vilifying people who do this only because I have enough of an imagination to understand that all rules have an exception... and for some specific circumstances there are appropriate responses that cannot be made generally acceptable. However, not calling this what it - torture - smacks of the "newspeak" mentality that distills "acceptable words" as a substitute from "unacceptable things."

I appreciate that – most don’t draw the same line though. It is never something undertaken lightly or haphazardly. Call it whatever you want – personally it should never have been made public. The individuals who did just doomed the very people they wanted to protect to off-site contracted interrogations at the hands of real sadistic torturers.

Originally posted by MaxmarsTruth is, the apparent love our HUMINT folks have for the thrill of rendering a human into a sniveling complaint creature without willpower is misplaced and problematic... and when the politicians start defending it - it's time to speak up - and when legislation starts to codify it's application without redress - it's time to worry.

It is never something looked forward to. In fact at my level, (Field Grade Officer) I was still close enough to participate but senior enough to be able to watch my operators. If I felt I had an operator was getting some emotional thrill form this I’d have yanked them and their clearance in a heartbeat. These things are never done by Soldiers – only Senior NCO’s and usually Warrant Officers. Experts. No one likes doing it. Its emotionally draining. Even a regular session is draining.

No one enjoys breaking the spirit of another human being. It’s sad to see a proud man who believes in his cause made humble. However, I would do it all over again if I thought I could get something to save our Soldier’s lives. It’s just war. Again, not for everyone and best left to the professional.

(continued)

(continued from above)

Originally posted by MaxmarsBut I suppose that's just bleeding heart liberal crap to your ears.

No I think your take is perfectly legitimate and in view of (what I presume to be) your limited exposure to the topic to be expected. I respect your opinion and am willing to fight and die for you to continue to express it.

Originally posted by groingrinderThe fact that it is done, does not make it moral or just. That you have done it and condone it shows your own lack of morals and disrespect for humanity.

The fact that you consider these men “humans” makes it clear to me you have no idea what kinds of acts they have participated in. I do. They are animals – anyone who was selected for enhanced interrogation would qualify for our electric chair plain and simple. I encourage you to either run for office or serve in the military if you wish to have direct influence over policy and methods. Otherwise it’s right up there with me giving advice to a drug researcher on his profession – useless; I have no common frame of reference from which to debate.

Originally posted by groingrinderThe fact that you consider yourself a "professional" at it just shows how depraved you are.

I am a professional and proud that I learned my trade well. I learned many things at the expense of the taxpayer – many of which they had they known would surely not approve. However, as an expert in the profession of arms and especially in the art of interrogation/information gathering I think they were all unnecessary to accomplish my missions.

Many professions exposed to the light of day would not meet with the tacit approval of the average layperson from funeral director to doctor to accountant.

The most successful nazi interrogator Hanns Scharff treated POW's very well and didn't harm them at all. Need we say anymore about torture?

Waterboarding IS torture. It is the same a suffocating someone. It makes you feel like you are going to drown and die. When it is being done you don't know if they will let you drown or will by mistake drown you. If making someone think that they may die isn't a form of torture then I don't know what is. And all those who say that it isn't are either brainwashed, stupid or on the governments payroll.

Originally posted by Maxmars

Originally posted by SayonaraJupiter

It would be premature for me to conclude that these ex-CIA books are nothing but fictionalized accounts of unverifiable events. I haven't finished reading Ishmael yet.

There's a lot of that going around since the 20th Century... give it some thought. Tell me, can you narrow down where that started? I think maybe the 50's but I might be naively mistaken.

Here is an account of vivid, popular portrayals of "G-men" in the 1930's. I am beginning to suppose these ex-CIA books are little more than pulp fictions. The secret agent / spy novel may have earlier incarnations. I guess that spy novels from the 30's are the literary companions to the ex-CIA novels on the bookshelves today.


Source The FBI: A Comprehensive Reference Guide
By Athan G. Theoharis

Everytime I read a few pages of this ex-CIA book "The Human Factor" I usually bust a gut laughing out loud. If these stories are true... the CIA are made of flunkies, goofs, losers, failures, idiots, fools and unmotivated career agents. This book is truly an insult to my intelligence but it makes me laugh page after page.