Ex-CIA Officer Who Destroyed Waterboarding Videos: Torturers "Disgusted" at Being Labeled "Tortur

Originally posted by Silcone Synapse

Originally posted by QQXXw
Waterboarding is not even torture, I would file in under special investigative techniques

What is more humane? to send a person to military prison for 10 years on suspicion that that they are an enemy of the United States or to waterboard them for 10 minutes and find out if they are really telling the truth on not ?

Whatever happened to the view that torture only gets people to tell the torturer what they want to hear?
This was the view of the US security people until Bush came along,and changed it to "special investigative techniques."

I you were in fear of your life,I bet you would confess to anything to make the torture stop..

Just because the USA is doing it does not stop it from being torture...Think of the other lovely regimes who have used this technique-not only the Khmer Rouge,also those nice North Koreans,and the Spanish Inquisition(Both well known for extracting false confessions.)

It really amazes me that the US and its allies have got away with this for so long in this day and age.

Land of the free,who torture people to keep it that way...Hell Yeah!!!

Waterboarding is not used to bring out confessions, it is used to gather information during a critical period.
The entire session does not take in excess of 10 minutes and leaves the suspect un-harmed. Any innocent person captured by mistake and brought to the point of waterboarding will be let go as it will be blatantly obvious if they do not know anything and are simply telling the investigative agent what they think the investigative agent wants to hear.

By the way the Khmer rouge may have used prolonged waterboarding as torture to get false confessions, this is not what the CIA does

reply to post by QQXXw


you lose the moral high ground using any form of torture. Can't go around criticising others human rights records and be a hypocrit. USA needs to set the standards if it is to have any moral authority or credibility on any subject.

Originally posted by QQXXw

Waterboarding is not used to bring out confessions
it is used to gather information during a critical period.
The entire session does not take in excess of 10 minutes and leaves the suspect un-harmed

Any innocent person captured by mistake and brought to the point of waterboarding will be let go as it will be blatantly obvious if they do not know anything and are simply telling the investigative agent what they think the investigative agent wants to hear.

By the way the Khmer rouge may have used prolonged waterboarding as torture to get false confessions, this is not what the CIA does

It is not my intention to challenge you personally, or make it seem like this is a 'you' against 'others' discussion... but... 10 minutes? really?

May I ask if that's what the "manual" says? Because we have already seen testimony and admissions about the duration, and repeated application of, "enhanced techniques: (specifically water boarding) that appear to contradict your apparently authoritative description.

But I don't want to get into a tit-for-tat exchange with you... I was just wondering if your description can be confirmed outside of hearsay or the declarations of people already under scrutiny for their abuse of uncharged people in the name of their mission. I understand there is also supposed to be a physician in attendance... or maybe a psychiatrist... but then - if there's no danger - why have them at all?

Originally posted by Maxmars

Originally posted by QQXXw

Waterboarding is not used to bring out confessions
it is used to gather information during a critical period.
The entire session does not take in excess of 10 minutes and leaves the suspect un-harmed

Any innocent person captured by mistake and brought to the point of waterboarding will be let go as it will be blatantly obvious if they do not know anything and are simply telling the investigative agent what they think the investigative agent wants to hear.

By the way the Khmer rouge may have used prolonged waterboarding as torture to get false confessions, this is not what the CIA does

It is not my intention to challenge you personally, or make it seem like this is a 'you' against 'others' discussion... but... 10 minutes? really?

May I ask if that's what the "manual" says? Because we have already seen testimony and admissions about the duration, and repeated application of, "enhanced techniques: (specifically water boarding) that appear to contradict your apparently authoritative description.

But I don't want to get into a tit-for-tat exchange with you... I was just wondering if your description can be confirmed outside of hearsay or the declarations of people already under scrutiny for their abuse of uncharged people in the name of their mission. I understand there is also supposed to be a physician in attendance... or maybe a psychiatrist... but then - if there's no danger - why have them at all?

Ten minutes is plenty of time for a differential test and as you can tell, this time frame suggests that there is not torture at all involved. I have no authority on the subject whatsoever by the way, I just feel that people who think that waterboarding is torture have not thought through their arguments, they are same kind of people who think non-lethal weapons should be taken away from law enforcement

Originally posted by QQXXw
Waterboarding is not used to bring out confessions, it is used to gather information during a critical period.
The entire session does not take in excess of 10 minutes and leaves the suspect un-harmed. Any innocent person captured by mistake and brought to the point of waterboarding will be let go as it will be blatantly obvious if they do not know anything and are simply telling the investigative agent what they think the investigative agent wants to hear.

By the way the Khmer rouge may have used prolonged waterboarding as torture to get false confessions, this is not what the CIA does

Riiiiight ...

Judge Confirms Innocent Gitmo Detainee Tortured to Get False Confessions

From the source:

In the ruling, to put it bluntly, it was revealed that the U.S. government tortured an innocent man to extract false confessions and then threatened him until he obligingly repeated those lies as though they were the truth.

I bet the Nazis wished they could have destroyed all the evidence of concentration camps. Then they could have claimed that it was all vital for the war effort, and no innocent person was harmed.

This is ridiculous; what we do in the US is not torture.

Enhanced interrogation which is more like intense physical and mental manipulation that may produce momentary panic or mental fatigue did without a doubt produce documented and good usable/ actionable intelligence.

However, thanks to all the bleeding hearts the hard core detainees are in fact sincerely and genuinely tortured in other locations.

All the doo gooders out there who cried for us to stop our "torture" can blame themselves for the real and genuine suffering of those who were subsequently sent to worse places overseas to achieve the same thing albeit with less effective results.

I have been to SERE School (and some other schools) and had every one of these "torture" methods applied to me. Yes - you will talk; that is a fact. However, it's hardly torture. No permanent effects.

Also, I was a Special Forces Officer - I was also a Military Intelligence Officer, specifically a HUMINT officer (I was also a 97B when enlisted). I personally used most of these techniques on individuals at various locations in theater and at one location in the US. Prior to being authorized to use any technique you must first have been subjected to it so you know how to safely do it and what the effects feel like.

I was also a Russian speaker so when a post came up for a liaison officer to be on site in Uzbekistan for some intelligence collection I was selected. If you want to know what torture is - it’s there and in other places. I was not allowed to witness any real torture for plausible deniability reasons I suspect but I saw its effects. It doesn't work really IMO the information was unreliable.

So again - now we can't do our own "dirty" work we contract it out to people who can...and they frankly make a mess of it both in practice and result.

Some things should stay safely out of the venue of public opinion - interrogation and intelligence collection are some of those things. The general public hasn't the experiance, qualification or stomach to make decisions in this area. Leave it to the professionals please.

reply to post by Golf66


I am certain that I risk offending you, but it is a risk I will take. Your 'training' experiences with water boarding are unlikely to be relevant... unless you are prepared to tell us that you didn't know you were being trained and it lasted for more than 10 minutes. Abject fear of restraint and suffocation only have true experiential impact if they are done "for real." But as I said, perhaps they gave you a "training" secret you were not to divulge... how long did you last?

I have some small modicum of knowledge in POW training... yes you will talk - if that is the objective. But most captors are not moronic enough to think that foot soldiers and those likely to be captured actually have 'essential - time critical' information which merits breaking international law...

I don't go around vilifying people who do this only because I have enough of an imagination to understand that all rules have an exception... and for some specific circumstances there are appropriate responses that cannot be made generally acceptable. However, not calling this what it - torture - smacks of the "newspeak" mentality that distills "acceptable words" as a substitute from "unacceptable things."

Truth is, the apparent love our HUMINT folks have for the thrill of rendering a human into a sniveling complaint creature without willpower is misplaced and problematic... and when the politicians start defending it - it's time to speak up - and when legislation starts to codify it's application without redress - it's time to worry.

But I suppose that's just bleeding heart liberal crap to your ears.

These people are criminals. They should be subject to citizens arrest.

Originally posted by QQXXw

Waterboarding is not used to bring out confessions, it is used to gather information during a critical period.
The entire session does not take in excess of 10 minutes and leaves the suspect un-harmed. Any innocent person captured by mistake and brought to the point of waterboarding will be let go as it will be blatantly obvious if they do not know anything and are simply telling the investigative agent what they think the investigative agent wants to hear.

By the way the Khmer rouge may have used prolonged waterboarding as torture to get false confessions, this is not what the CIA does

edit on 25-4-2012 by QQXXw because: (no reason given)

Torture is torture. The intent of the person doing the torturing is irrelevant. I wonder how many of these criminals profess to follow Jesus as they sadistically torture people?

reply to post by Golf66


The fact that it is done, does not make it moral or just. That you have done it and condone it shows your own lack of morals and disrespect for humanity. The fact that you consider yourself a "professional" at it just shows how depraved you are.

reply to post by kn0wh0w


Eh, no surprise here.
imo you've gotta do what you've gotta do. They dont just waterboard random civilians, and besides these are not outstanding individuals they are torturing.
All a leak of these videos would do is give people another thing to bitch at ( reminiscent of the Marines peeing, Scout Sniper SS symbol, etc.)
Basically, if you are not a part of the practice don't judge another persons actions.
Something i have learned over the years.. some things you swore youd never do end up seeming right in the time.
Props for destroying the videos before these pathetic "like on facebook to save the world" times get their cyber hands on it.

Wolf

Originally posted by Golf66

This is ridiculous; what we do in the US is not torture.

Enhanced interrogation which is more like intense physical and mental manipulation that may produce momentary panic or mental fatigue did without a doubt produce documented and good usable/ actionable intelligence.

However, thanks to all the bleeding hearts the hard core detainees are in fact sincerely and genuinely tortured in other locations.

All the doo gooders out there who cried for us to stop our "torture" can blame themselves for the real and genuine suffering of those who were subsequently sent to worse places overseas to achieve the same thing albeit with less effective results.

I have been to SERE School (and some other schools) and had every one of these "torture" methods applied to me. Yes - you will talk; that is a fact. However, it's hardly torture. No permanent effects.

Also, I was a Special Forces Officer - I was also a Military Intelligence Officer, specifically a HUMINT officer (I was also a 97B when enlisted). I personally used most of these techniques on individuals at various locations in theater and at one location in the US. Prior to being authorized to use any technique you must first have been subjected to it so you know how to safely do it and what the effects feel like.

I was also a Russian speaker so when a post came up for a liaison officer to be on site in Uzbekistan for some intelligence collection I was selected. If you want to know what torture is - it’s there and in other places. I was not allowed to witness any real torture for plausible deniability reasons I suspect but I saw its effects. It doesn't work really IMO the information was unreliable.

So again - now we can't do our own "dirty" work we contract it out to people who can...and they frankly make a mess of it both in practice and result.

Some things should stay safely out of the venue of public opinion - interrogation and intelligence collection are some of those things. The general public hasn't the experiance, qualification or stomach to make decisions in this area. Leave it to the professionals please.

My friend you are waging a useless war,
I do think it would be a great idea to put all the civs through SERE and see how they come out at the end
Once you go through the experiences and see the things that we have seen this seems so mediocre.
Waterboarding? Tortue? Ha! Hardly.

Originally posted by QQXXw
Waterboarding is not even torture, I would file in under special investigative techniques

What is more humane? to send a person to military prison for 10 years on suspicion that that they are an enemy of the United States or to waterboard them for 10 minutes and find out if they are really telling the truth on not ?

edit on 25-4-2012 by QQXXw because: (no reason given)

Uhm, you don't understand why torture doesn't work do you?

FWIW, if you'd agree, I'll waterboard you for those mentioned 10 minutes. We'll see what your idea of torture is then.

Derek

reply to post by QQXXw

Waterboarding is not used to bring out confessions, it is used to gather information during a critical period. The entire session does not take in excess of 10 minutes and leaves the suspect un-harmed. Any innocent person captured by mistake and brought to the point of waterboarding will be let go as it will be blatantly obvious if they do not know anything and are simply telling the investigative agent what they think the investigative agent wants to hear. By the way the Khmer rouge may have used prolonged waterboarding as torture to get false confessions, this is not what the CIA does

really? why would they destroy the tapes if waterboarding is as humane and clean as you claim? how do you know the length of the sessions without the tapes?

you're definitely on the payroll.

Originally posted by QQXXw
Waterboarding is not even torture, I would file in under special investigative techniques

What is more humane? to send a person to military prison for 10 years on suspicion that that they are an enemy of the United States or to waterboard them for 10 minutes and find out if they are really telling the truth on not ?

edit on 25-4-2012 by QQXXw because: (no reason given)

Or squeeze their gonads for an hour everyday for nine years? good God, the reasoning of some people....

Originally posted by ka119
reply to post by kn0wh0w

 

Eh, no surprise here.
imo you've gotta do what you've gotta do. They dont just waterboard random civilians, and besides these are not outstanding individuals they are torturing.
All a leak of these videos would do is give people another thing to bitch at ( reminiscent of the Marines peeing, Scout Sniper SS symbol, etc.)
Basically, if you are not a part of the practice don't judge another persons actions.
Something i have learned over the years.. some things you swore youd never do end up seeming right in the time.
Props for destroying the videos before these pathetic "like on facebook to save the world" times get their cyber hands on it.

Wolf

I suppose you forgot, conveniently, that the videos recorded for posterity illegal activities.

Hey, Zapruder, toss that chit in the garbage.

reply to post by AlchemicalBinoculars


Haha good lord I'd rather get water boarded than to have my 'nads squeezed everyday for nine years!
Thats no fun especially if they made videos of it, double whammy.

Originally posted by Golf66

This is ridiculous; what we do in the US is not torture.

Enhanced interrogation which is more like intense physical and mental manipulation that may produce momentary panic or mental fatigue did without a doubt produce documented and good usable/ actionable intelligence.

However, thanks to all the bleeding hearts the hard core detainees are in fact sincerely and genuinely tortured in other locations.

All the doo gooders out there who cried for us to stop our "torture" can blame themselves for the real and genuine suffering of those who were subsequently sent to worse places overseas to achieve the same thing albeit with less effective results.

I have been to SERE School (and some other schools) and had every one of these "torture" methods applied to me. Yes - you will talk; that is a fact. However, it's hardly torture. No permanent effects.

Also, I was a Special Forces Officer - I was also a Military Intelligence Officer, specifically a HUMINT officer (I was also a 97B when enlisted). I personally used most of these techniques on individuals at various locations in theater and at one location in the US. Prior to being authorized to use any technique you must first have been subjected to it so you know how to safely do it and what the effects feel like.

I was also a Russian speaker so when a post came up for a liaison officer to be on site in Uzbekistan for some intelligence collection I was selected. If you want to know what torture is - it’s there and in other places. I was not allowed to witness any real torture for plausible deniability reasons I suspect but I saw its effects. It doesn't work really IMO the information was unreliable.

So again - now we can't do our own "dirty" work we contract it out to people who can...and they frankly make a mess of it both in practice and result.

Some things should stay safely out of the venue of public opinion - interrogation and intelligence collection are some of those things. The general public hasn't the experiance, qualification or stomach to make decisions in this area. Leave it to the professionals please.

Let's see ...

The Tuskegee Airmen

Project MKULTRA

The USS Liberty

Operation Northwoods

The Gulf of Tonkin

The First Iraq War (remember Iraqi soldiers killing babies?)

Afghanistan

Iraq (again)

Libya

(take a breath)

The Patriot Act

NDAA

Presidental ordered assasinations

etc., etc., etc. I'd add more, but I have things to do tonight.

I'm not one to blindly trust the US Government, too often have they lied to the American people and acted against our interests. They have certainly not earned our trust.

All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
Thomas Jefferson

Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves are its only safe depositories.
Thomas Jefferson

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.
Thomas Jefferson

ive honestly thought about this long and hard, and Ive personally come to a conclusion.

What gets better results, torture, or the fear of torture? Anyone knowledgeable of the subject will tell you that it is the fear that does it. Someone will tell you whatever they think you want to hear when they are being tortured. Theyll tell the TRUTH to avoid being tortured.

That said, I believe ALL of this waterboarding stuff is about putting the idea out there that america tortures. Its about putting that fear into our 'enemies'.

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
ive honestly thought about this long and hard, and Ive personally come to a conclusion.

What gets better results, torture, or the fear of torture? Anyone knowledgeable of the subject will tell you that it is the fear that does it. Someone will tell you whatever they think you want to hear when they are being tortured. Theyll tell the TRUTH to avoid being tortured.

That said, I believe ALL of this waterboarding stuff is about putting the idea out there that america tortures. Its about putting that fear into our 'enemies'.

We have and probably do waterboard. A technique that pre-dates WW1.

I can attest first hand that torturing works, it gets information. The problem is deciphering which information is truthful and which is cowchips.

Torture is used to get information when information is not forthcoming or is known to be untruthful. I have never seen torture used by intelligence officers with half a grain of duty that used it when it was not deemed necessary.