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Is it Time to Ban Vaccines Once and For All?

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posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 01:33 PM
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Originally posted by fourthmeal
You want the link of the guy that is going to jail because he took money from pharma companies for attacking a Thimerisol study?
www.naturalnews.com...

Quite a case you linked there!

Unfortunately nothing is proven, and it looks certain that this man was defrauding the american taxpayers. What is uncertain is if the CDC employee who signed off on his papers was also complicit or not. This proves nothing, besides this man defrauded taxpayers.




posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 01:39 PM
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reply to post by Rubinstein
 


Hey first of all I want to say that I agree with the idea that vaccines are not effective and I intend to read this entire thing once I'm once. I was really curious as to where these quotes are from the elite bankers saying that they want the population down by 50% and that it should be the UN's job?

I only ask as I wasn't aware that anyone of significance had suggested such drastic change was needed, let alone that they agreed with widespread population reduction! This is really disturbing to me alone without me reading on about the vaccines! What a lie. We could easily feed the whole global population now if we 100% had to. It's just a shame sick people run the world. If aliens came down and said 'eradicate poverty from your planet or we will destroy you all!' the elite would probably say fine, destroy us, life isn't worth living if we must live equally to everyone else!



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 01:44 PM
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reply to post by usernameconspiracy
 


Why do people who have innoculated their children against various diseases seem so concerned with the possibility that their kids might be exposed to other children who might develop one of those diseases at some point in time and expose their innoculated children. Don't they think their innoculated kids are well enough protected by the innoculations they received to weather being around others who, even though they are not actually sick, haven't received similar shots?


edit on 24-4-2012 by frazzle because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 01:52 PM
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I think you need to come to an understanding of what is known as
"Problem / Reaction / Solution"

It is known the vaccine was made BEFORE the flu "Pandemic" came.

From there it is "follow the money".

When I began my research into the dirty business of vaccinations, especially from other countries and what we literally force on others, I came to realize that the pharma companies actually CAUSED the pandemic. The swine, and the bird.

And when I followed the money I actually was able to find damning evidence about it all. I consider it a very important part of the puzzle.


And to those who are saying it should be forced, I shall see you in line waiting for your next vaccine (the one that kills you or sterilizes you) while I am fighting against it. It has happened to other countries. What in the world makes you think it won't happen here?



Originally posted by nixie_nox
If you are going to start a thread raising such claims, know what you are talking about first.

The swine flu pandemic was a pandemic, that did put strain on the medical system, and EMS learned a lot from it. Sorry you didn't get to see bodies piled in the streets like you hoped.


The reason the swine flu was a concern:

It was related to the Spanish flu that killed 100 million people world wide

It targeted young people, that make up the workforce.

It moved quickly, what should of taken weeks or months was done in days.

The reason it wasn't worse then it was: the vaccine companies, that you are trying to use as an excuse here for creating flu, created the vaccine in an unprecented rate. In layman's terms: they busted ass.

As for the vaccine, the flu vaccine generally remains the same, they just change the dna structure to meet the flu du jour.

So before you go making such absurd claims that vaccines kill more people a year then they save, lets look at teh flu vaccine alone:

Depending on the flu and who it targets, anywhere between 15,000- 35,000 people die each year from the flu. Do you have any proof that 15,000 a year die from vaccines?

The reason the elderly and children are encouraged to get the vaccine? Because it turns into pneumonia, that creates the toll number previously mentioned.

Kids are more capable of recovering. But in 2010, out of the several hundred pediatric deaths, 75% hadn't received the flu shot.

This notion that people are made sick to make money is just absurd. In an normal year (btw, every year the flu is an endemic in the US and Europe) about 5-20% of the population gets the flu.

200,000 people are hospitalized.

The flu costs the US BILLIONS every year in lost productivity, missed work, missed school, healthcare costs. It is actually a company's best interest to have healthy employees.

If you have a flu like H1N1 that infects the working group of 18-25, say with a severe pandemic and an infection rate of 25%, that means:

25% of teachers are out
25% of employees are out
25% of healthcare workers are out, risking a collapse of the healthcare system
25% of police, firefighters, engineers, inspectors, you get the point
25% of your manufacturers, producers, and farmers

A severe infection would mean a potential economic collapse.

So as much as you folks entertain this silly notion that the flu is pread to make money off of meds and vaccines, the fact is, the vaccines are pushed as a MAJOR cost preventive measure.



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 02:08 PM
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Clint, I think I can help answer your question.

Are you first familiar with how the elite bankers schemes were found out? Are you familiar with the "ruling families", who they are, and what they desire of the world? We'll need to cover that first before we begin to understand WHY they desire a smaller population.

If you are unfamiliar with these notions I'll begin there, just let me know (if this is of real interest to you.)

I do warn that what you find out may pull you out of the Matrix, as the old cliche goes.

As for your other part of what you wrote, I'd like you to consider something. What IF a form of ET already existed here on Earth, was negatively polarized (meaning they seek the Service to Self path and are aligned to receive "literally" energy from others by causing negative emotions, vibrations, and consciousness thought patterns? What IF those ET were actually manipulating the "Elite" into believing that something like this is necessary, and of course what if those Elite believed it and made it part of their process and plan? I do honestly believe that we are at WAR. A Frequency war. Death, destruction, poverty, scarcity for the good of only a few, these are all negatively aligned, Service to Self aligned actions. Consider that at the core of it, there may very well be a faction of entities (human or otherwise, irrelevant) that believe they are to decide what alignment this Earth ends up in. There have been many times in history (perhaps ALL of history) that negative STS actions have been twisted around as necessary, good-overall, or important for some other reason (doing bad for good reasons). I can smell it when things are aligned negatively or in the Service to Self path. I can feel it in my bones. The Elite are aligned this way, and for exactly what reason, I simply do not know. But I know they act as if the world would be better without us, and vaccines are simply one more way to reduce the herd. Gates, Rockefeller, Morgan, et. al


Originally posted by clintdelicious
reply to post by Rubinstein
 


Hey first of all I want to say that I agree with the idea that vaccines are not effective and I intend to read this entire thing once I'm once. I was really curious as to where these quotes are from the elite bankers saying that they want the population down by 50% and that it should be the UN's job?

I only ask as I wasn't aware that anyone of significance had suggested such drastic change was needed, let alone that they agreed with widespread population reduction! This is really disturbing to me alone without me reading on about the vaccines! What a lie. We could easily feed the whole global population now if we 100% had to. It's just a shame sick people run the world. If aliens came down and said 'eradicate poverty from your planet or we will destroy you all!' the elite would probably say fine, destroy us, life isn't worth living if we must live equally to everyone else!



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 02:23 PM
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Here is Agenda 21

www.un.org...

Here is a viewpoint on it
endoftheamericandream.com...

There are plenty others. Now that you know what Agenda 21 is, you can research it.

---

Bill Gates....

"The world today has 6.8 billion people. That's heading up to about nine billion. Now if we do a really great job on new vaccines, health care, reproductive health services, we could lower that by perhaps 10 or 15 percent."

--

Barack Obama's top science advisor, John P. Holdren

"A program of sterilizing women after their second or third child, despite the relatively greater difficulty of the operation than vasectomy, might be easier to implement than trying to sterilize men.

The development of a long-term sterilizing capsule that could be implanted under the skin and removed when pregnancy is desired opens additional possibilities for coercive fertility control. The capsule could be implanted at puberty and might be removable, with official permission, for a limited number of births."

--

David Rockefeller

"The negative impact of population growth on all of our planetary ecosystems is becoming appallingly evident."

--

Ted Turner....

"A total population of 250-300 million people, a 95% decline from present levels, would be ideal."

--

Dave Foreman, Earth First Co-Founder....

"My three main goals would be to reduce human population to about 100 million worldwide, destroy the industrial infrastructure and see wilderness, with it’s full complement of species, returning throughout the world."

--
Prince Phillip, the Duke of Edinburgh....

"If I were reincarnated I would wish to be returned to earth as a killer virus to lower human population levels."

--

David Brower, first Executive Director of the Sierra Club....

"Childbearing [should be] a punishable crime against society, unless the parents hold a government license ... All potential parents [should be] required to use contraceptive chemicals, the government issuing antidotes to citizens chosen for childbearing."

--

Planned Parenthood Founder Margaret Sanger. Woman, Morality, and Birth Control. New York: New York Publishing Company, 1922. Page 12....

"Birth control must lead ultimately to a cleaner race."

--

Mikhail Gorbachev....

"We must speak more clearly about sexuality, contraception, about abortion, about values that control population, because the ecological crisis, in short, is the population crisis. Cut the population by 90% and there aren't enough people left to do a great deal of ecological damage."

--

Thomas Ferguson, former official in the U.S. State Department Office of Population Affairs....

"There is a single theme behind all our work–we must reduce population levels. Either governments do it our way, through nice clean methods, or they will get the kinds of mess that we have in El Salvador, or in Iran or in Beirut. Population is a political problem. Once population is out of control, it requires authoritarian government, even fascism, to reduce it…."

--

Hillary Clinton....

"This year, the United States renewed funding of reproductive healthcare through the United Nations Population Fund, and more funding is on the way. The U.S. Congress recently appropriated more than $648 million in foreign assistance to family planning and reproductive health programs worldwide. That’s the largest allocation in more than a decade – since we last had a Democratic president, I might add."

--

It is written on these
en.wikipedia.org...
"Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature."





Sourcing so you can learn more, and get started in understanding

endoftheamericandream.com... -that-will-make-you-want-to-lose-your-lunch

Another source to get you started.
socioecohistory.wordpress.com...



edit on 24-4-2012 by fourthmeal because: added another source for more honest research



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 02:45 PM
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Thanks for posting clintdelicious

Here is one of the many sources available, this is David Rockefeller (American banker, Statesman, Globalist), the Head Honcho himself giving a speech about his desired world population, this is the man who controls the WHO and the UN (and CFR). He says that it is the UN's job to control population, this was before Swine Flu was released, which the WHO then used as a pretext for injecting us with ovary-destroyer Polysorbate 80






Originally posted by clintdelicious
reply to post by Rubinstein
 


Hey first of all I want to say that I agree with the idea that vaccines are not effective and I intend to read this entire thing once I'm once. I was really curious as to where these quotes are from the elite bankers saying that they want the population down by 50% and that it should be the UN's job?

I only ask as I wasn't aware that anyone of significance had suggested such drastic change was needed, let alone that they agreed with widespread population reduction! This is really disturbing to me alone without me reading on about the vaccines! What a lie. We could easily feed the whole global population now if we 100% had to. It's just a shame sick people run the world. If aliens came down and said 'eradicate poverty from your planet or we will destroy you all!' the elite would probably say fine, destroy us, life isn't worth living if we must live equally to everyone else!



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 02:47 PM
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Originally posted by frazzle
reply to post by usernameconspiracy
 


Why do people who have innoculated their children against various diseases seem so concerned with the possibility that their kids might be exposed to other children who might develop one of those diseases at some point in time and expose their innoculated children. Don't they think their innoculated kids are well enough protected by the innoculations they received to weather being around others who, even though they are not actually sick, haven't received similar shots?


edit on 24-4-2012 by frazzle because: (no reason given)


Good point frazzle, it's a contradiction which shows people are not thinking logically, but instead following a myth



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 02:48 PM
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I have spent years reading both sides of the vaccination debate. The conclusion I have reached is that there is no evidence vaccines cause Autism. There is also no evidence that vaccines are harmful beyond the occasional allergic reaction or light fever or mild sickness that may occur. There is also about a 5%-10% of the population whose bodies do not take the vaccine and are unable to build up an immunity, so they may think they are vaccinated but are still susceptible to getting sick from those diseases. It is them, and others who are unable to get vaccinated due to allergies or medical conditions, that depend on herd immunity.

Beyond hearsay I have yet to find a real actual study that has directly linked Vaccinations to Autism. I have also found very few cases of death or disability from vaccines given the number vaccinated. With those deaths being caused from complications with the vaccine interacting with an ongoing disease, or an allergic reaction. In INCREDIBLY RARE circumstances, there is a genetic disorder that can be triggered via vaccinations which could result in disability or even death. But these risks are the same for any and all forms of medications, or medical treatments.

Autism is on the rise, even in countries with falling vaccination rates or in the case of Japan, where they eliminated the vaccine completely for a huge period of time. I feel that autism may be directly triggered mainly via genetic triggers. What causes the triggers? Processed foods? Formula vs Breastmilk? Increased environment pollution? dense saturation of radiowaves in our environment? television exposure at a young age and interaction with neural development? Or even home vs daycare exposure and the Hygiene hypothesis? Heck, I have even heard some state that Autism is linked to indigo or star children and that those autistics are just being raised to a higher dimensional awareness to ascend and it causes them difficulty in interfacing with our reality...

I have even looked into vaccines causing allergies, asthma, or diabetes via overwhelming the child's immune system. The studies have all shown no correlation between vaccines and allergies. They actually showed children who received more vaccines, had performed better in areas of brain development. They have also researched it and found no higher correlation between vaccinated and un-vaccinated populations in regards to such diseases/allergies/disorders/etc.

There are literally thousands of things far more likely to be the trigger for autism than vaccines. The fact that vaccines have saved millions upon millions of lives every year, perhaps has also increased the pool of children and the possible cases of autism as well? Considering childhood death has decreased 75%-90% world-wide due to vaccines.

I have even looked into spacing out the vaccinations and single doses vs multi-dose shots. I could not find any evidence that there is any benefit for one, or the other. By waiting longer between shots it only seemed to create a longer period lacking immunity with no real benefit to the health of the child. There also has not been studies on the long term effects of the preservatives within vaccines and their effects on humans. But the amount in the vaccines is far below the allowed amounts, to the point where, according to animal studies and human toxicity it should have no effect on a human, adverse or not. The environment we are exposed to everyday has far more toxins it would seem. I have found that articles, "research" and testimonies that oppose vaccines tend to be nothing more than hearsay with little or no evidence to back them up. They are also lacking in being peer-reviewed.

Most of what I have read essentially show that many signs of autism or other disorders tend to arise between 9 months to 18 months of age, showing themselves subtly or more extreme, with major tells happening between 2-4 years of age. The MMR is given at around 1 year of age, so it is right in the middle of a time that such symptoms could start showing. Unless an infant has been tested for signs of autism it is also hard to tell if were autistic or not prior to the MMR, especially if the parent is not looking for it or is untrained.

AS I have said I have spent years RESEARCHING, given the information available to the public. If you count personal experiences, I have known hundreds of people whose children have received their full vaccine schedule and their children did not develop autism or allergies or diabetes or asthma, etc. I also know a few others whose child does have autism or allergies but do not know if that can be attributed to the vaccines.

Of course, all of this could be boiled down to conspiracy and the pharma/medical industrial complex suppressing information on their quest for profits, a huge conspiracy by the for-profit medical/pharma industrial complex to suppress the truth and sow disinformation in order to ensure huge short-term and long-term profits.



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 02:49 PM
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Saw a study that stated that Obesity leads to autism and developmental disorders.

medicalxpress.com...

Interesting and would explain why the USA has a higher number...

This long journey has made me more open to vaccines, as I originally was anti-vaccine at the start. Especially considering I have several family members with Autism, 2 very severe requiring constant care. Especially since one of their parents claimed that he turned autistic "moments" after being vaccinated, as the change was near instant. As for me, I saw more of a gradual change in him, and looking back I now know there were tell-tale signs even as a toddler of Autism prior to a majority of his vaccinations.

The Autism vs Vaccination link is more conspiracy based than anything, but this is ATS and I would expect no less. And if there is a true link then TPTB have done an excellent job of suppressing such information, and all doctors and scientists have been strong-armed to fall in line.

I am still open to additional research, and actively seek out new, peer-reviewed scientific studies on vaccines and their links to various conditions.

Perhaps you will find these links useful?

www.skepdic.com...

en.wikipedia.org...




edit on 24-4-2012 by DJM8507 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 02:55 PM
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I'm enjoying reading your posts fourthmeal


I'm particularly pleased you raised Agenda 21, as it's all part of the same agenda to control us. There are too many of us to control, so they want the population down as well as a reduction of the areas that are available for us to live in. (I know you are already aware of this, I'm more saying it for those who haven't come across this before)

Here's a quick guide to Agenda 21, apparently up to 2015 we're still in the years of 'Education', so it sounds like it gets serious from 2016 onwards, which means mass relocation's, no more private property etc. If anyone's thinking of getting a mortgage, forget it, the laws are going to change. All property and land will belong to the United Nations. Here's a map of where people will be allowed to live in the USA (you can live where it's green) 2.bp.blogspot.com...





edit on 24-4-2012 by Rubinstein because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 02:56 PM
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reply to post by Rubinstein
 


some one at work showed me a you-tube video of bill gates ,yea the same super rich fool that keeps putting out that half assed operating system of his which is incomplete . but on this video he said quote ,that we the people have and are the cause of climate change and all things that befall us and this plant .that they should use the immunization programs to help with this our problems.... still want to get the flu shot or any other shot that they come up with.
let us see how about chemically sterilizing the masses ,or infecting say 1 in 10 with something that will kill us off then turn around and tell us that it was a reaction to the shot .or it was a bad dose too bad for you .case in point i lost a long time friend to the flu shot within 3 days as he was deathly alergic to eggs and they never informed him that it was guess what made with eggs and his family doctor did not tell him . what is wrong here and he and his family have no recourse of action open to them as the drug companies have sealed this loop hole already.
STILL TRUST THEM.



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 03:03 PM
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picratus,

I'm sorry to hear about your friend. Doctors have various reasons to keep quiet about this (as you know), they don't want to damage their reputation, also they want to avoid requests for compensation. From my experience you really have to push the doctors to get the truth out of them when things have gone wrong. Most such situations are not tracked, with is why so many people think vaccines are perfectly save.

Bill Gates was a ruthless business man with the most dirty of tactics, he is clearly not a nice man, but that's not what we're told. We're told he's a good guy. He's doing favors for the Elite, they use him to carry out their agendas because of his clean image. Here's the video you were talking about where he admits that vaccines are to decrease the population




Originally posted by picratus
reply to post by Rubinstein
 


some one at work showed me a you-tube video of bill gates ,yea the same super rich fool that keeps putting out that half assed operating system of his which is incomplete . but on this video he said quote ,that we the people have and are the cause of climate change and all things that befall us and this plant .that they should use the immunization programs to help with this our problems.... still want to get the flu shot or any other shot that they come up with.
let us see how about chemically sterilizing the masses ,or infecting say 1 in 10 with something that will kill us off then turn around and tell us that it was a reaction to the shot .or it was a bad dose too bad for you .case in point i lost a long time friend to the flu shot within 3 days as he was deathly alergic to eggs and they never informed him that it was guess what made with eggs and his family doctor did not tell him . what is wrong here and he and his family have no recourse of action open to them as the drug companies have sealed this loop hole already.
STILL TRUST THEM.



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 03:17 PM
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Originally posted by DJM8507
The Autism vs Vaccination link is more conspiracy based than anything, but this is ATS and I would expect no less. And if there is a true link then TPTB have done an excellent job of suppressing such information, and all doctors and scientists have been strong-armed to fall in line.


Even the former Director of the CDC Julie Gerberding admitted that vaccines were triggering autism. She'll get in trouble if she makes 100's of thousands of families apply for compensation, and if she damages vaccine uptake too much, so she's very careful with the language she uses. She tries to say that it's a problem that the child was born with which was then triggered by the vaccine. However, those children would have been perfectly healthy without the vaccine, sure they've got slightly different genetics, but they would have been perfectly healthy without the vaccine, hence the vaccine is what is causing it. Be careful with the language these people use, it's filled with propaganda.



The signs that Autism is an autoimmune disease are starting to come to the surface, so in which case it's likely to come from the same place as almost every other autoimmune illness, such as Diabetes Type 1, MS etc i.e. VACCINES. It is when we tinker with the immune system that we can leave little surprises inside; the immune system doesn't only create immunity to the virus, but also to other parts of the vaccine, sometimes to substances which are in our own body. This means for the rest of our lives our immune systems will be working against us, causing whatever problem it is, once that's happened there's not much you can do to reverse it. The immune system can be switched off, but you won't live for long without it.
edit on 24-4-2012 by Rubinstein because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 03:31 PM
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reply to post by DJM8507
 


DJM I respect that you researched it, but let me point out to you something important.

One lynchpin for those I suspect is the Dr. Wakefield study. This is the ONE that pretty much started it all. First, this happened
www.time.com...
And once that came out, pretty much everyone who was following this stuff decided that this was the pin in the cap that made vaccines safe.

Now, remember that the Dr. that was instrumental in bringing this whole thing to a head to the point where the BMJ did what they did... he's been indicted and that was the point made above.

OK, so here's where it gets good.

www.politicolnews.com...
childhealthsafety.wordpress.com...
politicsnews.tumblr.com...

So now, one must conclude that the Wakefield study is at least worth a merit, and does serve a point.



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 03:58 PM
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Originally posted by frazzle
reply to post by usernameconspiracy
 


Why do people who have innoculated their children against various diseases seem so concerned with the possibility that their kids might be exposed to other children who might develop one of those diseases at some point in time and expose their innoculated children. Don't they think their innoculated kids are well enough protected by the innoculations they received to weather being around others who, even though they are not actually sick, haven't received similar shots?


edit on 24-4-2012 by frazzle because: (no reason given)


I never said I was worried about someone's non-immunized child infecting my child. Nor do I have such a concern. The OP is regarding a complete ban on immunizations. That's what I took issue with. It's not about now, it's about the future, if we were to end all immunizations. The problem is that a few are placing their desires to see an end to immunizations over the many who feel the complete opposite.



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 04:04 PM
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Fair enough, perhaps the thread title should be

"Are we free enough to decide for ourselves whether or not we want a vaccine?"

I'd be OK with just saying, "Yes".



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 04:13 PM
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Being a father-to-be I thank you for posting this OP. I have a lot of research to do.

Does anybody know where I can find a thread titled, ''Get your doctor to sign this before a vacine?''


 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 04:43 PM
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Thanks for the links fourthmeal, I've noticed that a lot of people I meet seem to know a very small amount of information on the Wakefield study, but very few people have actually listened to Wakefield himself speak or have studied the full details. There's a lot that the media were banned from reporting.

Here's Dr Andrew Wakefield, telling the story from his point of view.




Originally posted by fourthmeal
reply to post by DJM8507
 


DJM I respect that you researched it, but let me point out to you something important.

One lynchpin for those I suspect is the Dr. Wakefield study. This is the ONE that pretty much started it all. First, this happened
www.time.com...
And once that came out, pretty much everyone who was following this stuff decided that this was the pin in the cap that made vaccines safe.

Now, remember that the Dr. that was instrumental in bringing this whole thing to a head to the point where the BMJ did what they did... he's been indicted and that was the point made above.

OK, so here's where it gets good.

www.politicolnews.com...
childhealthsafety.wordpress.com...
politicsnews.tumblr.com...

So now, one must conclude that the Wakefield study is at least worth a merit, and does serve a point.





posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 04:47 PM
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Ideally I wouldn't want a complete ban, but it's more that they have been abused so much that it's got to the point where it's an unnecessary risk for us. The temptation is too great for the elite to use them against us. As long as vaccines are there and are controlled by these psychopathic control freaks, it's hard to know what on earth they're really up to. Sometimes a complete ban is the only way, in an ideal world a complete ban wouldn't be necessary.




Originally posted by usernameconspiracy

Originally posted by frazzle
reply to post by usernameconspiracy
 


Why do people who have innoculated their children against various diseases seem so concerned with the possibility that their kids might be exposed to other children who might develop one of those diseases at some point in time and expose their innoculated children. Don't they think their innoculated kids are well enough protected by the innoculations they received to weather being around others who, even though they are not actually sick, haven't received similar shots?


edit on 24-4-2012 by frazzle because: (no reason given)


I never said I was worried about someone's non-immunized child infecting my child. Nor do I have such a concern. The OP is regarding a complete ban on immunizations. That's what I took issue with. It's not about now, it's about the future, if we were to end all immunizations. The problem is that a few are placing their desires to see an end to immunizations over the many who feel the complete opposite.

edit on 24-4-2012 by Rubinstein because: (no reason given)




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