Mohammad - a perspective

Originally posted by babloyi
I don't have any link, as much of the Hadith literature is unfortunately not available online in english, but if you are able, look up Ibn Taymiyah's "Majmu-al-Fatawa".

You don't have a link? I have to take your word for it?

I would prefer not to. Not unless you are willing to take my word for things, yet you clearly are not. I prove all of my points with links. I suggest that you do the same.

I have a link which is relevant to the discussion

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "The person who participates in (Holy battles) in Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr)."

Sahih Bukhari, Book 2, Number 35:

So Muhammad makes it clear that if a Muslim dies in jihad, he will go to paradise.

If Muhammad encouraged Muslims to engage in Jihad and promised them entry to paradise if they died doing so, in what sense is Islam a religion of peace?

I think Mohammad was a very charismatic, exceptional leader of men, who might have also been slightly schizophrenic. I can keep in mind the extremely remote possibility that maybe he did talk to some higher level, inter-dimensional being, but I seriously doubt it, and certainly not to the one true God.

Mohammad succeeded in conquering the Middle East, which is one of the most inhospitable stretches of land on the planet. This wasn't exactly all that great of an accomplishment. I don't think God had anything to do with it.

Jesus taught forgiveness and love, while Mohammad taught conquest and slavery.

In the twentieth century, the nations of Islam were blessed with the greatest of luck of any nations on Earth, having been found under their lands the greatest source of black gold on the planet.

What has the nations of Islam done with this enormous source of wealth, discovered and developed by western nation under ground in their country? Have they spent it wisely developing industry and technology to carry them into the future?

No, the nations of Islam have foolishly squandered the great gift of wealth found under their nations, spreading Islam, which has only lead to the rest of the world growing more and more hostile towards Islam.

You need to stop spending so much time praying to god, and spend a whole lot more time learning technology, and how to build things that the rest of the world wants to buy.

Originally posted by babloyi
If you want links, look up in the Quran all the exhortations to fight THOSE WHO FIGHT YOU.

So you expect me to do your research for you?

For a man who considers himself an all knowing expert on Islam, you are very poor when it comes to actually citing the Koran and Hadith.

Here is a quote you may be interested in which is very relevant to our discussion

“Islam makes it incumbent on all adult males, provided they are not disabled and incapacitated, to prepare themselves for the conquest of [other] countries so that the writ of Islam is obeyed in every country in the world. But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world…. Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says, kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! ...Whatever good there is, exists thanks to the sword, and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient, except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for Holy Warriors! ...Does all that mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.”

—Ayatollah Khomeini (1902-1989) Iran’s Supreme Leader from 1979 to 1989—the highest ranking political and religious authority of the nation.

www.religioustolerance.org...

The supreme Islamic ruler of Iran makes it clear that all male Muslims have a duty to conquer other countries.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Regardless of what people think of Mohammad and Islam, its undisputable that Mohammad utterly changed the face of Arabia. He put an end to the culture of idolatry, polytheism and paganism that prevailed in Arabia.... and established a monotheistic religion that directs all worship to the One true God and recognizes and honors the biblical prophets and Jesus.

Yeah, ok. He also did it disobeying Christ by murdering people who refused to convert, and raping and pillaging his way across the middle east. Now tell me, when you read the Holy Bible did Yeshua once ever tell anyone to do those things? No in fact Yeshua said "if you live by the sword you shall die by the sword" and he was against murder, rape, conquesting and pillaging (stealing) and men taking other men's wives for their own (adultery). Yeshua commanded you to love your enemies as you love your friends, which Muhammad never believed or followed.

I see more worshipping Muhammad than anything, if anyone says anything about Muhammad they get the crap beaten out of them or killed. Yeshua never condoned murdering people who chose not to follow him, he gave them a choice. The only choice Muhammad gave was convert or die.

No thank you, i will take Yeshua over Muhammad everyday. The only thing that liar did was omitt Yeshua's name as your God and give him the nameless appelation "allah" so that he could put words in his mouth to support his conquest and imperialism.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

My take is that Mohammad was a true prophet and Islam is a valid Abrahamic religion.
God did not allow for Islam to be established only to send muslims to hell, for the crime of not being christians. Instead Mohammad was chosen to cleanse Arabia of its idolatry and polytheism... and enforce the very first commandment that was given to the Israelites. He truly was an agent of God.

Further reading

edit on 22-4-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

The problem with your conclusion is that the Quran is in direct opposition of it. How do you apply Mohammed's OWN words here: " I was ordered to fight all men until they say: There is no god but Allah" Within the text itself there is denial of every other faith including Judaism and Christianity which you're claiming to be compatible.

Mohammad could not have been a prophet of the biblical God. The paradox emerges where God has allowed Islam and Christianity to grow through predestination and their messengers Mohammad and Jesus through the same idea yet if we look at what both of these men preached about the purpose of the world, Mohammad is rendered a liar.

Mohammad preached that Allah is omniscient, nothing happens except by Allah’s will, Allah Himself has free will and Allah cannot make a mistake. In order for Allah to be a supreme being he must be outside of time and space. Therefore the Earth cannot be a test and everybody that exists and has existed has already been assigned to heaven or hell. Oppositely, Jesus preaches that the path through him into Heaven is narrow and based off of your actions on Earth; that's called a test. The two prophets messages aren't compatible nor is the nature of their gods.

All this thread proves is Mohamed was a pedophile murderer who did not unite the Arab tribes, in fact caused more derision and treated women as sub human...
Is that what you wanted to get across Skorp???
I think most understood that already

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Dear sk0rpi0n,

Nice to see you again, and the collection of learned people you have attracted.

This thread has shown me that I know nothing at all about Islamic theology and writings, but I'd like to interrupt that discussion with a couple of pedestrian comments.

1. If you believe Mohammad was a false prophet, then why did God allow him success and thereby letting Islam emerge in the middle east?

2. If christianity is the true path, then why didn't God allow for christianity to prevail in the middle east, instead of having Mohammad show up and spread Islam, which you see as a false religion.

These seem to be the same question. May I respond by asking if any religion is the true path, why will God allow TPTB or the NWO to prevail in the world? It seems you're saying that God provides his true followers with worldy success and I don't think Christians believe that.

3. If you believe muslims will never be saved unless they accept christianity, then doesn't it mean that God made it difficult for muslims to be saved? Because as you know, muslims are rather strict about religion and will not simply "accept Jesus as lord" just because they read it in a tract. So, why did God put muslims in a difficult situaton?

I don't accept your "If you believe..." statement. At least, the Catholic Church doesn't teach that.

Anyway, thanks for the thread.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by borntowatch


No, this thread proves that most christians are drones who, at the very mention of the word "Mohammad" or "Islam" start regurgitating the drivel that their cult leaders have filled their brains with.

I asked a few simple questions, in the OP and you ignore it...
Either you are incapable of comprehending the questions or you simply don't have an answer.

Here I'll post them again, just for you.

1. If you believe Mohammad was a false prophet, then why did God allow him success and thereby letting Islam emerge in the middle east?

2. If christianity is the true path, then why didn't God allow for christianity to prevail in the middle east, instead of having Mohammad show up and spread Islam, which you see as a false religion.

3. If you believe muslims will never be saved unless they accept christianity, then doesn't it mean that God made it difficult for muslims to be saved? Because as you know, muslims are rather strict about religion and will not simply "accept Jesus as lord" just because they read it in a tract. So, why did God put muslims in a difficult situaton?

reply to post by charles1952


Hello Charles.

These seem to be the same question. May I respond by asking if any religion is the true path, why will God allow TPTB or the NWO to prevail in the world? It seems you're saying that God provides his true followers with worldy success and I don't think Christians believe that.

Can you honestly compare the godless NWO/TPTB with Islam...a religion that worships the One true God and honors the prophets of the bible?

The fact that Islam emerged in the middle east instead of christianity which was just "next door", means either
a) Islam is a valid religion that God intended to emerge.
or
b) God was not really concerned about christianity spreading in Arabia and allowed Mohammad to come out of nowhere and establish Islam.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Lonewolf, you don't like Islam or Mohammad. I've known that for quite some time.
So, if Mohammad was such a bad, bad person why did God, who you call Jesus allow for it to happen?

Wouldn't it have been better if God prevented Mohammad from establishing Islam?
Wouldn't it have been better if God established christianity in Arabia?

Does God want Arabs to perish and so allowed Mohammad to establish what you call a "false religion"?

Also, Arabs are not going to discard a lifetime of being Muslim and suddenly accept Jesus just by watching a Chuck Missler video or reading a tract... so didn't God make it difficult for muslims to accept christianity?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Dear sk0rpi0n,

Thank you for giving me the chance to clarify. Whatever NWO/TPTB do in the field of religion will be terrible. I hope I am not called to be a martyr for the Faith to that ugly machine. I'm sorry I created that impression.

Where I was going was that I thought you were saying that a religion that sweeps a part of the world (or the whole world) must be true and of God. Christians, and maybe others, accept what Jesus said when he told us that His Kingdom was not of this world.

The fact that Islam emerged in the middle east instead of christianity which was just "next door", means either
a) Islam is a valid religion that God intended to emerge.
or
b) God was not really concerned about christianity spreading in Arabia and allowed Mohammad to come out of nowhere and establish Islam.

I'd prefer it if I could choose "God allowed Mohammad (pbuh) to come out of nowhere and establish Islam." It's hard for me to know wether He was concerned about it or not, but I would think anything that affected the spiritual lives of His children would concern Him.

Hope that clarifies my confusing post. It's a privelege to talk with you.

With respect,
Charles1952

P.s. I'll try hard to not be a drone. - C

reply to post by charles1952

I'd prefer it if I could choose "God allowed Mohammad (pbuh) to come out of nowhere and establish Islam." It's hard for me to know wether He was concerned about it or not, but I would think anything that affected the spiritual lives of His children would concern Him.

I think God intended Islam to emerge.... as a force to wipe Arabia clean of idolatry and polytheism and establish a monotheistic religion that honors the biblical prophets and Jesus.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Dear sk0rpi0n,

I understand wiping Arabia clean, but is there any reason why it should stop there? Shouldn't Islam strive to be a force to wipe the entire world

clean of idolatry and polytheism and establish a monotheistic religion that honors the biblical prophets and Jesus.

Why should it stop in Arabia? If so, what happens when it gets to where I live?

With respect (and a little trepidation),
Charles1952

reply to post by Iason321

I agree 100% actually,
This is all part of the Masters plan for a reason....
If Islam wasn't around, we wouldn't have all the modern prophecies being fulfilled by Islamic nations and Islamic Extremeist groups,

Im not sure what you mean by the last sentence, because Islam is more than just a pawn for prophecy.
Islam itself was prophecized to emerge in the bible.
Take a look at Isaiah 42.

This particular chapter seems to be addressing the gentiles, i.e- Non-Israelites and is addressing the people of Kedar (a son of Ishmael). It is prophesied that they will be removed from darkness and brought into the "light". These gentiles are given a "light", through a servant of God.... and that idolators would be shamed.


1 "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles"
Which is exactly what Mohammad did. He brought judgement by changing the way of life for the gentiles in Arabia. If not for Mohammad,that region would have probably still been in idolatory....But through Islam they have turned into strict monotheists who recognize Jesus as the messiah.

4He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
Despite the difficulties he faced from his own people, Mohammad was not discouraged. Instead he returned and was immensely successful in establishing Islam, i.e Abrahamic monotheism in a land where paganism and idolatory was the way of life.

11Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.
This is crucial to understand and answer. Why Kedar? Why the wilderness? These are places most associated with Ishmael, son of Abraham...so this has to refer to a particular group of people... i.e - The people of Kedar

16And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them..
The blind are those who were living in the spiritual darkness of paganism and idolatory. Who were those people who came out of the darkness, and entered a new life of worshipping the God who chose Abraham?
Answer : The Arabs conquered by Mohammad.

and here is the best part....

17They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images, that say to the molten images, Ye are our gods.
The graven images of the people who will 'be greatly ashamed' ... are the same graven images that Mohammad destroyed. Were not the people who Mohammad conquered ashamed of their "graven images" or idols, before they submitted to the One God?

Bear in mind, this chapter deals with Kedar, the removal of idols, and the redemption of gentiles... through a certain servant. If it is not Mohammad, who else can it be? Which other biblical character utterly vanquished idolatory among the people of Kedar and the "wilderness"?

An honest look at Isaiah 42 shows that Mohammad was indeed guided by God and Islam was intended by God to emerge.

reply to post by charles1952

Dear sk0rpi0n,

I understand wiping Arabia clean, but is there any reason why it should stop there? Shouldn't Islam strive to be a force to wipe the entire world
clean of idolatry and polytheism and establish a monotheistic religion that honors the biblical prophets and Jesus.
Why should it stop in Arabia? If so, what happens when it gets to where I live?

Its a little difficult to answer that question... because I cannot claim to know why Islam stopped at Arabia.
At this time, I will have to say "God knows best".
I was looking at Islams emergence from a historical perspective... and exploring why its relevant to christians.

Ideally, a christian should contemplate Mohammad and Islam in light of their own religion... because Islam teaches that Jesus is the messiah. If Mohammad had failed or gave up half way through, Islam as we know it would not exist today...

A christian needs to ask
"How was Mohammad so succesful?"
"why did Islam happen?"
"Does Mohammads success in establishing Islam prove his prophethood"?
"Does Islams honoring of biblical prophets prove that Islam is a valid religion"?
"Did God intend Islam to emerge?"

and so on, instead of taking the easy way out and dismissing Islam as the work of the devil.

Let me know if you want me to elaborate.

I used to work with a bunch of Hindus I found them to be very nice, a credit to themselves and their people and I assume a credit to their religion also

And Hinduism can be defined as a polytheist idol worshipping religion (as far as I know)

So with that in mind I ask again

Why is this:

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Regardless of what people think of Mohammad and Islam, its undisputable that Mohammad utterly changed the face of Arabia. He put an end to the culture of idolatry, polytheism and paganism that prevailed in Arabia.... and established a monotheistic religion that directs all worship to the One true God and recognizes and honors the biblical prophets and Jesus.

Considered a plus?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by borntowatch

 

No, this thread proves that most christians are drones who, at the very mention of the word "Mohammad" or "Islam" start regurgitating the drivel that their cult leaders have filled their brains with.

I asked a few simple questions, in the OP and you ignore it...
Either you are incapable of comprehending the questions or you simply don't have an answer.

Here I'll post them again, just for you.

1. If you believe Mohammad was a false prophet, then why did God allow him success and thereby letting Islam emerge in the middle east?

2. If christianity is the true path, then why didn't God allow for christianity to prevail in the middle east, instead of having Mohammad show up and spread Islam, which you see as a false religion.

3. If you believe muslims will never be saved unless they accept christianity, then doesn't it mean that God made it difficult for muslims to be saved? Because as you know, muslims are rather strict about religion and will not simply "accept Jesus as lord" just because they read it in a tract. So, why did God put muslims in a difficult situaton?

So you deny what I have posted?

Go read Ephesians one from the New Testament.

God is God not Allah, the petty moon god you worship. God is sovereign, He doesnt need our help.
Christians dont convert people the Holy Spirit does. Christianity is not for everyone only Gods chosen bride get called by Gods Spirit.

I dismiss out of hand your comprehension of Christianity.
What you believe is a bastardisation of many religions

reply to post by borntowatch

Go read Ephesians one from the New Testament.

Clearly you are a cult member of the religion that Paul started.

If you have read the rest of the bible along with Ephesians, you will see that Paul is revealed as a false apostle... by his own words.

Here....
1. Paul witnessed to the Ephesians. (Ephesians 1:1)

2. You know that Ephesus was one of the seven churches located in (biblical) Asia, ( Revelation 1:10,11)

3. Paul later writes that he was rejected by all in (biblical) Asia.... Ephesus included (2Timothy 1:15 )

4. In revelations, Ephesus is praised for rejecting false apostles. ...
"I know your works, your labor, and your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars."
- Revlations 2:2
Text

So..... Why was Paul rejected by all of Asia? And why was Ephesus (in Asia) praised for rejecting false Apostles?

The answer : Paul was among the false apostles being rejected by Ephesus, in Asia.

You're right, christianity isn't for everyone... especially people like you who cultishly follow a false apostle like Paul. You think you serve God and Jesus, but you serve and follow a false apostle called Paul.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


It seems that you like repeating the questions you raised in your OP yet it appears you are reluctant to reply to the points I raised in answer to them in this post, www.abovetopsecret.com...

I'm really interested in your thoughts on free will within Islam and why you seem fixated with the concept of 'God' allowing things to happen and that being construed as some sort of divine will and part of 'his' grand design.

A slight aside; as an Agnostic I find it quite ironic that you ridicule Paul and his role in the development of Christianity etc yet you are a firm adherent of Islam and it's obsession with Mohammad and his doings....but I guess you won't see that.

Originally posted by babloyi
They weren't forced to be muslims. They were making war against Muhammad and Islam, and Muhammad said he was instructed to fight against them.

You got that backwards. The early Muslims were hooligans and lawless punks. They attacked caravans and raided cities. They raped. They stole. They murdered. They forced people to either convert, become dhimmis, or die. Ancient civilizations were destroyed by the invading muslims. People were murdered by the invading muslims. People were enslaved by the invading muslims. War was waged BY THE MUSLIMS against everyone else.

Muhammad said - " I was ordered to fight all men until they say: There is no god but Allah"

That's different from what you said. Muhammad claimed he was told to fight against those who were fighting against being forced to become Muslim.

Some Highlights of the Life of Muhammad
Also pepper in a whole lotta raids against caravans duirng this time. He was a thief.

Timeline of Muhammad's Life (A.D)

570 - Born in Mecca
576 - Orphaned upon death of mother
595 - Marries Kadijah - older, wealthy widow
610 - Reports first revelations from angel at age of 40
619 - Protector uncle dies
622 - Emigrates from Mecca to Medina (the Hijra)
623 - Orders raids on Meccan caravans
624 - Battle of Badr (victory)
624 - Evicts Qaynuqa Jews from Medina
624 - Orders the assassination of Abu Afak
624 - Orders the assassination of Asma bint Marwan
624 - Orders the assassination of Ka'b al-Ashraf
625 - Battle of Uhud (defeat)
625 - Evicts Nadir Jews
627 - Battle of the Trench (victory)
627 - Massacre of the Qurayza Jews
628 - Signing of the Treaty of Hudaibiya with Mecca
628 - Destruction and subjugation of the Khaybar Jews
629 - Orders first raid into Christian lands at Muta (defeat)
630 - Conquers Mecca by surprise (along with other tribes)
631 - Leads second raid into Christian territory at Tabuk (no battle)
632 - Dies