China, Russia start joint naval exercises in Yellow Sea

CNN

Chinese and Russian warships began six-day joint naval exercises Sunday in the Yellow Sea, China's state-run Xinhua News Agency reported.

"The exercises will involve several simulated missions, including the rescue of a hijacked ship, the escort of a commercial vessel and the defense (of) a convoy from air and sea attacks," a Russian defense ministry spokesman said Friday, according to Russia's RIA Novosti news agency.

The war game will include 16 Chinese vessels and two submarines, as well as 13 aircraft and five shipboard helicopters, Xinhua said. The agency said four Russian warships and three Russian supply ships arrived Saturday.

More than 4,000 Chinese service members will attend the exercises, Xinhua said, citing navy sources.

Interesting that China is frowning upon the US for moving into the pacific area but now themselves will be undertaking exercises, drills and military simulations together with Russia in the adjacent ocean of the Yellow Sea.

Personally if I didn't hold to a world view of events going forward from a Christian perspective, I would think the world was being divided right down the middle for a massive military showdown to determine who would be the next world superpower.

reply to post by surrealist


What, they didn't invite the US?

Silly wrabbits, if they want to accurately exercise their military might, maybe they should involve the U.S. and they can all shoot blanks at one another.

The U.S. will then win by default when they drop a huge flash bang over their capitols, and shoot down any attempts to launch flash bangs in any preemptive or reactionary strike.

That would show who's who, and void any causalities.

The U.S. is more and more, seen as a weak, laughing stock by other world powers. Expect to see more of Russia and China bonding in establishing a new power base. Unfortunately our current leader does nothing to change this outlook.

Des

This is a very interesting development, but not really surprising since the Bohai Strait is a major transit route for Chinese exports. The number of vessels and aircraft involved is rather small in comparison to the exercises the U.S. and the ROK hold in the Yellow Sea each year. In particular I’m surprised there is no mention of China’s new aircraft carrier taking part.

It will be interesting to see the reaction from North Korea to this. Will NK see this as a provocation or an attempt at support? Furthermore, will NK decide to carry out their new bomb test with these vessels in the area?

reply to post by surrealist


This excersise is probably having the USN Leadership Laughing their asses off! LOL! There is Hundreds of times more traffic and coordination being done right now in tracking and protecting standard sea lanes coming out of South East Asia by U.S. Naval forces...just for SEA TRAFFIC!...than this total exersize.

The Chinese and the Russian Naval Forces are so dramaticly over compensated by the U.S. Navy in this area that I guess they felt they had to do something to demonstrate....actually....I don't know what the Hell they are trying to demonstrate?!?

If I was a Russian Admiral...I would be embarrassed! This has got political fingerprints all over it as the Russian Navy would never make this decision as a way to intimidate the U.S. although the Chinese are all hyped up over their purchase of an out of date Russian Aircraft Carrier that will be used ONLY for training exersises as not only does it take many Decades to not only be able to design and build a proper and advanced Carrier from scratch...it takes Decades to be able to properly get a handle on a system of training and procedures and protocols.

If anything...all this does is help Ship Building Corps. in the U.S. Lobbiests to stress the need for new Nuclear Carrier Groups with the Gerald R. Ford being the New Design in a long term program to replace Nimitz Carriers as the Ford CVN-78 will replace the Enterprise...a design previous to the Nimitz Class and the oldest in the fleet.
The Gerald R. Ford CVN-78 will be the first U.S. Aircraft Carrier installed with a third Nuclear Reactor to power the Free Elecron Laser...quite possibly...an ULTIMATE WEAPON.

All Aegis Cruisers now equiped with SM-3 ABM's as well as their capabilities to shoot down any aircraft or Satellites as well...will also have installed the Free Electron Laser...making U.S. Carrie Groups impurvious to any missle or even Heavy Cannon or Gun attack. This system will use an integrated target and Aquisition system run by multiple Super Computers and be also tied in to a Reflective Mirrored Satellite system for over the Horizon targeting.

Discover Magazine stated that a Nuclear Powered Version of the Free Electron Laser is capable of burning a hole through 1000 Feet of SOLID STEEL in seconds. That was not a misprint. I would not want to be on any other nations Naval Ships with this kind of weaponry at the USN's disposal. Split Infinity

reply to post by Destinyone


I'm not sure they do old boy. I would imagine that they "think" this, but the reality is that the US has equipment and firepower of such unimaginable force and magnitude that they would shy away as soon as the big guns are brought out. Seriously, do you live under a rock? I'm not even American and I know this.

It would be like bringing a stick to a fire fight.

Originally posted by surrealist
CNN
Personally if I didn't hold to a world view of events going forward from a Christian perspective, I would think the world was being divided right down the middle for a massive military showdown to determine who would be the next world superpower.

I think you may very well have something there. The fact that Russia and China are having joint exercises at all is enough to get my attention. Many today may not recall but they haven't generally been friends and that's a nice way of putting things. Just because they were both Commie countries sure didn't mean they were buddies. Now they are... Hmm.. Yeah, I think you're definitely onto something.

Here is some number to think about.......

www.globalfirepower.com...


China:
Total Navy Ships: 972
Merchant Marine Strength: 2,012 [2012]
Major Ports & Terminals: 8
Aircraft Carriers: 1 [2012]
Destroyers: 25 [2012]
Submarines: 63 [2012]
Frigates: 47 [2012]
Patrol Craft: 332 [2012]
Mine Warfare Craft: 52 [2012]
Amphibious Assault Craft: 233

Russia:
Total Navy Ships: 233
Merchant Marine Strength: 1,097 [2011]
Major Ports & Terminals: 7
Aircraft Carriers: 1 [2011]
Destroyers: 14 [2011]
Submarines: 48 [2011]
Frigates: 5 [2011]
Patrol Craft: 60 [2011]
Mine Warfare Craft: 34 [2011]
Amphibious Assault Craft: 23

USA:
Total Navy Ships: 2,384
Merchant Marine Strength: 418 [2011]
Major Ports & Terminals: 21
Aircraft Carriers: 11 [2011]
Destroyers: 59 [2011]
Submarines: 75 [2011]
Frigates: 30 [2011]
Patrol Craft: 12 [2011]
Mine Warfare Craft: 14 [2011]
Amphibious Assault Craft: 30

Originally posted by Destinyone
The U.S. is more and more, seen as a weak, laughing stock by other world powers. Expect to see more of Russia and China bonding in establishing a new power base. Unfortunately our current leader does nothing to change this outlook.

Des

Aircraft carriers, and destroyers win the game.... not inflatable tanks(Russia) LOL!!

take a second look...

Here is some number to think about....... www.globalfirepower.com... China: Total Navy Ships: 972 Merchant Marine Strength: 2,012 [2012] Major Ports & Terminals: 8 Aircraft Carriers: 1 [2012] Destroyers: 25 [2012] Submarines: 63 [2012] Frigates: 47 [2012] Patrol Craft: 332 [2012] Mine Warfare Craft: 52 [2012] Amphibious Assault Craft: 233
Russia: Total Navy Ships: 233 Merchant Marine Strength: 1,097 [2011] Major Ports & Terminals: 7 Aircraft Carriers: 1 [2011] Destroyers: 14 [2011] Submarines: 48 [2011] Frigates: 5 [2011] Patrol Craft: 60 [2011] Mine Warfare Craft: 34 [2011] Amphibious Assault Craft: 23
USA: Total Navy Ships: 2,384 Merchant Marine Strength: 418 [2011] Major Ports & Terminals: 21 Aircraft Carriers: 11 [2011] Destroyers: 59 [2011] Submarines: 75 [2011] Frigates: 30 [2011] Patrol Craft: 12 [2011] Mine Warfare Craft: 14 [2011] Amphibious Assault Craft: 30

They see the union as weak, and the people divided. Not the US military.... there;s a difference.

reply to post by CaptainBeno

That does paint an interesting picture. First..the 2,000+ figure is about laughable and is counting on our side what isn't counted on theirs. The Mothball fleets. HAS to be. Cryptome has a document up recently showing the entire command by command structure of the U.S. Navy (It's on the front for those who go there) and the other figures look about right to the pages of surface ships I just got done scrolling through...

What it tells me is that the US is very strong for projection and offense...and almost non-existent for close-in defense capability. The other two are very light on projection but VERY heavily focused in protecting their own coastlines. Heavy on mining ships and patrol craft. Especially China..but I'm guessing their Amphib focus is with Taiwan in mind. Just a guess.

Thanks for the figures. That does put the strengths/weaknesses into perspective. I'd say the win/loss and ease of fight if it ever came to that depends 100% on just where in the world such a fight happens in. Our side or their side.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Any plan or even idea of trying to INVADE the U.S. Mainland and this includes Hawaii and Guam...which is a territiry of the U.S. like Puerto Rico and the people that live there are Citizens of the United States....would be totaol and complete shear SUICIDE for any invading force.

First of all...they would never even get a few miles out of port before the U.S. Airforce or Navy blows them out of the water. The Chinese KNOW this...and even though Taiwan is close to main land China....and China has a large Airforce...the U.S. Navy as well as a buildup of Advanced Raytheon Built Advanced Aircraft...Missle...Satellite or anything else you need blown out of the sky or Space Missles would drop the Chinese Airforce out of the sky like spraying Yardguard to kill bugs before a BBQ.

The Number of Chinese Landing craft is high because they are TINY in comparison to Gigantic Cargo Ship sized U.S. Marine Corps LCAC's or Giant HOVER CRAFTS that can bring in thousands of Marines and travel at over 70 KNOTS. They will fly over the ocean sea level by several Yards and even fly over beaches and all terrain.

Point is...the Pacific is the U.S. NAVIES BATHTUB. It can bring to bear Multiple Nuclear Powered Aircraft Carriers which all will soon be protected by the FEL...Free Electron Laser. They are currently protected by multiple systems with the Aegis Cruisers SM-3 ABM, Antiaircraft, Satellite killers. Then there are several other lines of protectionary Missle systems...etc. With this amount of Fire Power...never Mind...B-52's and B-1's that can strike quickly from the Island of Diego Garcia...as well as B-2 Stealth Bombers and a NEW LINE of weaponry that includes...Non-Nuclear High Powered EMP devices that can render entire Chinese Fleets of ships floundering around without power or any ability to protect themselves. These new EMP's can be dropped by B-52's, B-1's, B-2 Stealths or 2 Smaller EMP's can be carried inside the internal Bombing bays of the F-22 Raptors. 1 Raptor could take out all comand and control of the Chinese Fleet...without them ever knowing it was incoming.

The reality of the matter is...even if China and Russia combined all their Military Forces together...they STILL would be over matched by just the USN ALONE...baring any Nuclear events...and even if it DID go nuclear...we are prepared to shoot down the majority of their ICBM's and when the FEL System is Complete which means two Nuclear Powered Laser Systems per Carrier Group...and 8 Land Based FEL's...two are now opperational....and a Mirrored Satellite system that can not be shot down as at the very hint of an attack...any FEL...either Land or Sea based will target the Satellites Mirror which will be directed at any incoming Satellite Killing Missle that any country has developed.

The Really Big Difference which the U.S. does not talk about...is the USN's Super Fast and Quiet SUB FLEET which would be tracking any Chinese Subs and killing Surface Ships at will. You cannot compare the U.S. MIlitary to any other Military or even combined Forces set to attack the U.S. Mainland...they would never make it past Taiwan. Split Infinity

Split raises some pretty good points. Even though our economy/cultural/social state is in ruins, we're still pumping an obscene amount of our budget into the military.

this is supposed to strike fear in us people, come on get with it. be scared. be really really scared.

or just sit back, let them play their games in the water, and call it a day.

=)

It's only an exercise, and a small one at that. NATO hold bigger exercises every other day. I think there was a recent Russian / NATO naval exercise, just showing that navies work together.

Originally posted by Destinyone
The U.S. is more and more, seen as a weak, laughing stock by other world powers. Expect to see more of Russia and China bonding in establishing a new power base.

The politics of the Sino-Russian connectedness is more to do with their efforts to balance against the developed West and China’s insatiable demand for oil, gas and guns – Russia being a willing partner. You may like to believe that the US is a laughing stock, but many in the South East Asia / Far East region are close allies of the US and the West - especially the established democracies - and fear a resurgent China bent on regional domination. Almost all of China’s land and sea neighbours have some form of territorial dispute, for example.

Regards

reply to post by SplitInfinity

I know.. I get it. We're Gods among mere mortals and the world could not stand a full hour before the might of the United States,

(sigh)

I am sure these nations have considered that..and it doesn't even require a lifetime in military strategy to see that a thing like our satellites pose an achilles heal that the lower tech systems of China and Russia rather conspicuously LACK in many of their own...and where they have gone high tech, they are about our match. Why wouldn't they be, after all? We made it, then they stole it and made their own versions.

They don't spent HALF what WE do because they don't DEVELOP things. WE DO. They take what we develop, cut billions off the development cost then ATTACK us with it.....or make war plans to. Whoever said imitation is the best form of flattery never saw the Chinese version of the F-22 Raptor or the Russian Space Shuttle. I'd laugh if it hadn't ONLY been missing the Nasa Meatball on the side.

I agree that if China or Russia actually send a naval force to our shores it would be a short, one way trip. Right to the bottom. On the other hand, should we get into a furball with China off their coast, we'd better have our A game and with at least 3 Carrier groups.....4 would be better. We'll want some backup for SAR when we LOSE the first one. We've had FAR FAR too much success in places from Panama to Kosovo to Afghanistan. Now people are actually looking at CHINA like the place is "doable". It's our DOOM to even joke about it.

But.. Then.. for some folks, we're immortal in our Naval vessels too. Can't hit 'em and even if China or Russia COULD hit one, they couldn't hurt it. Hmm.. I've actually heard people say that. Those words. Isn't that kind of outright, over the top arrogance just stupefying? It's the kind of thing to bring one of those brain freeze moments...and probably just another groan from the rest of the world when they hear such general feelings out of anything American.

It's getting easier and easier to understand why some segments dislike me until I prove myself otherwise PURELY because they learn I'm American online. Never used to be that way....

This seems like a good place to reposit this.

The chinese military is a joke. If you take a look at most of the chinese equipment it's either stuff they purchased from Russia then broke their contract and started building unlicensed and inferior examples. Or through direct espionage one good one that comes to mind would be the W88 warhead.

I remember seeing threat books in 1999 that showed that China still had ships in commission that were built in the late 30's and they weren't using them because they were great ships either. They maybe have one destroyer squadron worth of modern LOOKING ships that still relay on optically guided missiles. The equipment on those ships was purchased from other countries many of which speak many different languages. Then they tried to teach them all Chinese and it doesn't work too well.

People may want to counter with the story of the Chinese sub that surfaced within the Kitty Hawk battle group. As I commented before on that the Kitty Hawk had numerous equipment issues and was extremely loud. Also battle groups don't have dedicated subs that go with the carrier, unless ordered to stick around they'll come and go as they please. Surface ships rarely use active sonar unless they have reason to suspect an intruder is nearby. So if you can't get at least get one sub inside the Kitty Hawk battle group then that nation shouldn't even have subs.

One other thing to touch upon is China can build all the missiles they want but they'll still have to make sure they can launch them before the sites are wiped out. Even then the missiles will have to fight against a heavy ECM environment , missiles CIWS and conventional countermeasures to score a hit. Historically China has talked a lot tougher than it really is, I wouldn't give their navy more than 72 hours before they'd be coral reefs. I wouldn't give their pitiful air force more than 48 hours, 72 if we pull any remaining F-4's out of storage and use those only. Then you just send in 1000 or so Tomahawks and they won't have much of a land force left, remember tiny Japan walked all over mighty China pre WW2. I don't want war with China at all not because I fear that paper tiger they call a military but because our countries have much more important things to do than fight and kill each other.

reply to post by SplitInfinity


have you been watching future weapons again.

if the aegis missile system is anything like the hacked super drone, it don't think russia, china, and iran are to worried.

all these missile systems are based on perfect condition tests with known incoming fire and with plenty of time to make corrections.

meaning they aren't battle tested and would probably fail like everything else u.s. military contractors come up with to embezzle funds from the american taxpayer.

and who's to say russia and china haven't come up with stealth cruise missiles that'll make a joke of the aegis missile system.

reply to post by randomname

Not Battle tested? thats laughable, your talking about the single most experience military in the world. We know battlefield conditions, these systems by the time they are in the field will already quickly become battle tested.

look at the new air burst rifle, I remember that being talked about like these systems a while back, and now they are seeing combat conditions. By the time these weapons if ever have to be used against Russia or China they will have been put through all the testing they need.

reply to post by benrl

LOL.. True on that. We weren't battle tested on Sept 10, 2001. Now? Hell.. I dare say there isn't currently a MORE battle tested and experienced force on the Planet and among the high tech nations.

Despite all my misgivings..I'll tell ya, I think we are fine if we just show enemies the same respect and caution for their abilities to hurt US that we always have in the past. No one laughed at the Imperial Japanese Navy. We'd have lost World War II FAST if FDR looked at them as a bunch of little morons with delusions of world control. They'd have gotten that world control, IMO.

I just hope all the leaders we have are NOT thinking in private how they speak in public. It's a new thing.. this arrogance to the point of obscenity...but it's a very dangerous thing for a nation that has always been quite the opposite on military matters.

reply to post by randomname


The Aegis battle system is very tested, my last ship was the USS O'Kane DDG-77. A large amount of the programming in the system is telling it what not to look for, there's not much the system can't see. The SM-2 missile is extremely tested and the SM-3 is coming along nicely, my last battle group was the home of the SM-3 system. Before I post up some video's there's a few other things to consider training and maintenance, both of which the US Navy and all her friends excel at. Training and maintenance is not the mastery of the Chinese or Russians. Also don't forget about the Japanese, they have the finest military in the Pacific and one of the best trained and equipped navies in the world.