For Those Complaining About the Big Banks and Mortgage Companies Please Look in the Mirror

I see your point, bugman, but let's look at the American system of credit.

Only in America do you "have to" establish a history of credit via loans and credit cards, in order to have a credit history. I have been told by people who live in other countries that their credit system looks at how often you have taken out loans and how many credit cards you have...The less, the better.

It is the opposite in this country. Starting in the 1970s, credit cards were pushed as an effective way to build one's credit rating, so that later on, one could qualify for loans on a car or a house. Then came the 21st century, where people's credit ratings are checked by potential employers.

They (and by "they", I mean the financial industry) set up the paradigm for being a debtor slave, and people got sucked into the whirlpool of credit cards and debt. Very few people are mature enough to resist putting more on their credit cards than they can pay for in a month. The banking industry knows this, and relies on people's credit debt so they can tack on fees and interest. The banks make a tidy sum from this.

I used to be one of those people who had credit card debt up the wazoo. Paying the minimum payment every month will actually ACCRUE debt, rather than pay it down. It's a freaking joke, and the bankers are the ones who are laughing.

Nowhere in this country will you find wisdom when it comes to how to effectively use credit, and how to avoid the debt trap. Nowhere on television will you see people living within their means.

If you look at it from a sociological perspective, pop culture and television sold us a bill of goods that we couldn't pay for, starting in the Reagan years, where rich lifestyles were worshiped like a religion. We were raised to be debt slaves, always yearning for the newest and latest thing, and credit cards make those purchases easy.

Yeah, we can all look in the mirror and say "shame on you"....But a thorough examination of the cultural roots of this insanity go back to the banks and the mainstream media, who created this culture of excess. We are products of this culture. We were tricked, lied to, and our economy is disintegrating before our very eyes.

I know I never expected that my wages would go down instead of up as the years went by.

We all need to learn to live without our means, but please don't be an apologist for the banks. They are like a rapist who comes on like Prince Charming but becomes something else entirely after we have let him in.

-I understand that Federal Reserve policy has discouraged savings as they keep interest rates artificially low.
-I understand that the Federal Reserve has debased currency purposely in order to transfer wealth from the middle and lower classes to the wealthy.
-I understand that the Federal Reserve has risked the very life of our nation through the increase in debt it has placed squarely on the shoulders of the American people.
-I understand the ways in which the cronies of Washington DC (in fact I live in DC 3 days out the week to go to school) have patted their masters, the banksters and corporations, on the back in cycle of "we'll help you if you help us".

However, I also understand that many people currently support the Obama administration of "spread the wealth around". If it is the all the fault of the banks, corporations, and Fed why shouldn't we "spread the wealth around"? Why shouldn't we get paid back from what they stole. Why shouldn't we get what we lost? I mean Ron Paul doesn't support taking our money back from the banks and taxing the rich. You see, we can preach that it is all the banks and corporations fault but when it comes down to it we understand that we have played a part in it all.

I am all for imprisoning and hanging those responsible for the crisis. However, I don't think this will ever happen or that the people of the United States will ever learn the fiscal responsibility of conservatism if we don't get our own rampart spending under control and learn simple wisdom. This is what my rant is about......our part.......our responsibility......how we can begin a movement of change that would effectively hamstring the hold the banks, corporations, and Fed have over us. Our power can be found in fiscal responsibility and not being enslaved to anyone through debt or the"need of the next shiny thing".

It became the norm about twenty years ago to owe more money and possess more cards. In order to get a good credit score we were told we needed to borrow. If you paid off your credit every month than it had a negative impact on your score. This caused people to get more and more used to owing money. After all, even our government has huge debts and wastes money. This conditioning of the people was started by the banks and their credit bureaus. This is a fact. It was too convenient especially when the banks allowed people to borrow up to 125 percent of the value of their home with no or little money down. I will blame those who initiated this deceitful practice, I have reasonable debt and a pretty good credit rating. I have to pay higher rates on my credit card even though I didn't abuse it. I always paid my bills even when I had income problems after my accident. I put 100 percent responsibility on the people who were assigned to watch over our countries money. Not all people should have got as much credit as they wanted. I remember when banks said no or you need 20 percent down and a year in your present job.

I was laid off in 2003. And then again in 2004, and again in 2005. AT&T, BearingPoint. Microsoft. YOU look in the mirror. I already lost all my stuff back in late 2004.

Ooh, this is getting ugly.

While I agree with the OP that people need to take responsibility for their actions, I am unable to blame the majority of this situation on the people.

When the Federal Govt. sets up these institutions (the federal reserve) in secret, on holidays unbeknownst to the public, one must question the intentions of said govt. There should be no question that the Federal reserve is the root of this problem.

But yes people do tend to spend entirely too much money on crap they do not need. 10 yr olds don't need I-phones, no one needs 4 TVs or 3 cars.

reply to post by FissionSurplus


I'm sorry that my posts are being misconstrued as being apologetic to the banks. It is not intended but for some reason people have a black or white view of things. If I'm not bashing the banks in this post then I must be serving them. That is a false assumption. The purpose of my post is only to drive forward personal fiscal responsibility. I only hope to see people break the hold the banks and debtors have over them. I only hope for people to experience the same freedom I've experienced in the face of financial crisis. I only hope that the stranglehold on America can be broken by the people and not by the government.

It is a tough area to discuss because feelings are so strong. However, I see more and more, each and every day, people taking less and less responsibility for themselves. I see it as parents now defend their children for their wrongdoing in school and bash the teachers for their punishment. I watched as I saw a clear video of a student vandalizing school property and his mother said, "that's not my son" when it was as clear as day on the screen that it was. I've watched as people spend abhorrently (this is not debatable, it is fact) and refuse to admit it just as an alcoholic in denial will deny there is any problem. I've watched is this irresponsibility has literally enslaved the American people to their masters as they suck off the tit of the government and the banks they so loathe. Freaking cut up your credit cards, get your house in order, and starve the heck out of the banks. The only money they make is from you stuffing them with cash through the interest they receive on your loans and credit cards.

It is a ridiculous cycle America has found it in and its the people that have to move America out of it.

Yes banks and credit card lenders are evil they force you get get those lines of credit and loans.

Gee its not like they offer insurance on those account that if you ever get sick or hurt they pay them off and then of course instead of live within your means its just easier to blame someone else.

Sure enough there has been a corresponding decline in people saving and the rise in credit card usage but that swings back to NOT LIVING WITHIN YOUR MEANS..

Go ahead those blame banks they throw people in jail for not paying them no wait silly me that is the Government who controls them.

reply to post by Bugman82


The problem in our environment is tied to this big mess also. We borrowed more to buy more which caused an increase in destruction of our biodome. It's ugly and it's hard to shut this waste thing down. Everyone got used to getting what they want when they want it. Those with jobs aren't seeing that they could be next. It's a big Capitalistic mess.

People have to learn to stem their desire for things they don't need. I see lots of waste going on everywhere yet.

So even though I avoid credit cards like the plague (unless it's a Pre-paid card), have ALWAYS hated banks ever since my parents first made me get an account,which I closed within 3 months because they jacked a decent chunk of money out of my acct without warning, and have not used EITHER since. It's still MY fault?

I'd love to hear this one...

Our recession stemmed from a cultural problem. We want it all now now now, and don't care how much of a deficit the government has, or how many payments we have left on our credit cards,and (before the crisis) how much bad debt was being passed around by the banks.

It was EVERYBODY'S fault.

well OP, you cant honestly expect people to understand what personal responsibility is do you? Much less have an expectation that it will be applied.

Yes the banks are out to screw us, thats obvious, however, no bank forced anyone to get a new credit card, personal loan, new car or the new house with an A.R.M mortgage. Hey why not, You can afford $75,000 of house, but hey get this arm loan and you can pay the payment on a $300000 house. So whose fault is it that someone did not read the contract they signed? So hey, it's ok, when they can't pay for it, it's all the bank's fault. It's got nothing to do with buying a house that is several times the house they could actually afford, or not reading the contract they signed, not thinking in advance, not doing any research for themselves, nope, it's all the banks.

Now, that being said, the banks are out to screw us, thats how they make their money. You just have to be careful and read everything before you sign it.

Im looking in the mirror and I see someone who has never profited off another person due to my intentionally misleading and awful advice.

I can stare all day. The banks and lack of regulations are still the problem

reply to post by Bugman82


What about the massive government spending which you've completely failed to bring up.

How did the "average irresponsible American" spend trillions of $'s on wars? How has the average citizen continued to throw trillions into military spending? How did the average American choose to throw money at the banks and failed corporations in what was supposed to be a capitalist system?

While I agree that people have been idiots, you cannot put the blame for this on the people. The people were mis-sold financial products on an industrial scale, there was massive fraud and corruption, and this was not the responsibility of those who were lied to. In any other industry, if you are sold a faulty product, or an item you have purchased is deliberately mis-sold, you can take action. But when it's a bank it's perfectly okay to place the blame on the buyer? NO CHANCE!

The people did not choose to bail out the banks and corps. The people did not choose to invade and attack two countries and extend military reach all around the world.

You are confusing credit card debt with our economic condition and the factors which led up to it. The two are not completely disconnected (we're still waiting for the massive credit card collapse) but they are separate things when looking at the entire economic picture.

this made me so angry I lost 5 years off of my life. the key point here is the line "they thought the banks knew what they were doing"

if the shaky camera work is buggin ya, just listen. one naughty word if you have young kids.....

Micro-level:
Yes, individuals are to blame for their own lack of savings during a time of apparent prosperity.

Macro-level:
Our entire economic system(which amounts to a large and revolving scam) is reliant upon the average individual's lack of understanding of it, and their belief in infinite prosperity. The house of cards fell because it did not have a solid foundation(policy), those building it(banks/Wall Street)were taking unnecessary and dangerous risks(derivatives/etc) and those who should have been protecting the general public's welfare(the government/FED) were ignorant of/complicit to the scam and the scammers' interests, and have been for decades.

And the sad thing is, everyone will keep pointing fingers at everyone else while those who planned and executed this scheme continue to laugh all the way to their Swiss Banks.

Yes, the average individual is to blame for their ignorance.
Yes, the banks and Wall Street are to blame for their gambling and gaming of the system.
Yes, the government and politicians areto blame for will fully turning a blind eye to it all and serving interests other than the general publics'.

But most of all....The System and Society is to blame....because it has made a virtue out of greed, and it is from there that all of the corruptive practices that have led to this collapse spring...but we can't blame the system and society....because greed is good.

while the OP would normally make a good point

one only need consider this:

the same government/system that wants to treat us like babies
or idiots that require legislation "for our own good" concerning practically everything.

did not see fit to legislate "for our own good" re credit cards
or any other kind of debt slavery inducing behavior

in addition it was not the people op claims were "irresponsible"
who lobbied to get rid of all sorts of protections repealed, it was the banksters and wall st criminals
who are all sitting pretty on their now much big piles of money.

reply to post by Bugman82

-I understand that Federal Reserve policy has discouraged savings as they keep interest rates artificially low.
-I understand that the Federal Reserve has debased currency purposely in order to transfer wealth from the middle and lower classes to the wealthy.

Undermining the entire foundation of the Middle Class. And after they debased the currency, cutting wage growth from underneath us.. what then happened? First the market collapsed, wiping on average 45-55% of the middle classes investment, savings and retirement.

Then the housing market crashed because the government supported plans of cheap loans that violated their own rules of reserve ratios. And with the housing market crash millions of people lost nearly all the wealth they had in equity.

Then we saw the highest levels of unemployment and underemployment since the 1930's.. undermining our ability to pay for what we have.

So lets say we have Joe Schmoe making $50k a year. He pays his bills, puts 20% away for retirement and a college fund for his kids. Joe Schmoe's mortgage broker convinced Joe Schmoe (who's a construction engineer) that the best thing that he could do was take out a 5% ARM loan on his house with nothing down. Gee, Joe Schmoe who knows nothing about finances is convinced this is awesome. Buys the house. Then the car sales people tell him why put something down? 0 down and drive today! Joe Schmoe is feeling ontop of the world..

Then, directly because of the failed fiscal policy of his government the economy begins crumbling.. he used to be able to afford all these things, but gas rose 200% over the years, and he pays an additional $3000 a year in food and utility costs. Suddenly he's living paycheck to paycheck .. so he dips into his retirement, which the government taxes with a vengeance. But no worries.. it will all be gone within a year. Half lost to failed investments that his financial adviser told him was solid and sound proof. The other half taken out to feed and cloth his kids when he loses his job.

The Government promises change and economic expansion .. Joe Schmoe facing foreclosure living off unemployment decides to do the right thing and get a new job.. At McDonalds.. making $21k a year. He loses his benefits, loses his house, and is forced to move in with his brother who, if he hadn't taken the family in would have been left on the streets. Because since losing his job, gas has gone up another 50% and he cant afford to drive to work to make minimum wage, and it's hard enough when food is seeing double digit inflation.

But woe is Joe Schmoe. Joe Schmoe gets cancer in the midst of everything.. now only his wife, who after losing her job got a new job at walmart making minimum wage, is left to pay all the bills. All the while racking up thousands in medical costs, even though they paid an insurance company $600 a month for 20 years and never used it once.. they are suddenly without coverage nor the ability to afford coverage.


Would you blame Joe Schmoe ....... who was just going along his merry little way enjoying life and listening to his advisers......

Or do you blame the corrupt corporations that totally !@# him over, gave him purposeful bad advice? Or the Government, who through their fiscal policies set up a scenario to deteriorate Joe Schmoes consumption power by debasing the currency, failed to oversee the banking processes, failed to regulate their own laws, and used inflation to cover the cost of their own infrastructural growth? Then through their economic fiscal policy promote the exportation of jobs oversees for tax loopholes and slave labor (Joe Schmoes job is now in India)?

Government is self serving.
Banks are controllers.
Usury is slavery.
We are pawns.

Don't blame the pawn.

Originally posted by Propulsion
The banks were a big part, but in the end, it was Americans who signed on the dotted lines. People weren’t forced to do so. Everyone wanted their cake, and eat it too.

edit on 21-4-2012 by Propulsion because: (no reason given)

That's right they signed under coercion, that there was actual value upon receiving a credit card. When you left the bank, with the card,did you leave with money or plastic with invented money? You signed a promise to pay invented money plus invented interest. Fact. They can't even show loss. There was no exchange of money.NONE! Your perception is you did,but you didn't. But you believe you did, and as being a honorable citizen,you succumb to the coercion and non disclosure of the Truth. That's fraud my Friend,plain as the nose on your face.Gross negligence is fraud under the law. What does the original order of indebtedness in its original form show?? Did you get 5000 dollars as an example when you left with the card?? SO you signed an order of indebtedness with out getting any money?? Obviously people aren't stupid, so obviously they were fraud-ed and coerced to sign an order of indebtedness without getting any money. Who's Fault is that again? Yah Right!!! The mirror.....

there's a little video somewhere on the web, maybe I can find time later and try to find it....

but...quite frankly....
our economy relies on use borrowing money, since the interest in what we owe is more than the money we have.
stop borrowing and pay off your debts and save, and that game is up!!! they need us to continually create new money through debt to keep the scheme running....
just wondering where this little tidbit falls in the ops viewpoint of blame the people, not the banks???

by the way when I look into the mirror, I see a middle aged women, who is working herself to death for a wage that wouldn't support her if it had to while four adult males, three of which can't find jobs in this crap arse economy (they were doing great before this crap happened by the way only had one home...) the other adult (hubby) was laid off for a good part of last year!! what do I see?? I see the person with the lowest wage potential holding up this family, I earned more than all of them!!! then came home to what's for dinner, no I can't wash any dishes while you are at work, hon, sign your paycheck so I can go put it into the bank while you do the dishes and cook us some food....oh, and here's a couple of bucks for sodas and chips at work!!!

we still have a little saved up, not in a bank, under our mattress. not that banks. stock brokers and the like aren't trustworthy or anything!

was at the store yesterday...
ya know those little boxes of jiffy cornbread mix??
the used to be about 25 cents a box, not that long ago??
well, 100% inflation in around a years time...they are over 50 cents a box!!!

glad you can save 50% of your income....
I didn't even earn 20 thousand a year last year, and well...it's kind of hard when it's all going into keeping 5 people sheltered and fed!! yes, we have internet......so what?? I won't let it go! and just the meals I skip throughout the week pays for it!!
and well....
there are sights like this
library.universalclass.com...
with all kinds of free learning opportunities.
my new years resolution is to jump careers at the end of this year! and they help....
so, we... you look in the mirror op!!!

anyone taken the ciw certification tests??

Originally posted by Domo1
Good thread OP. When I was young the bank gave me an obscenely high limit credit card. I should have known better. This mess we are in is not just the fault of the banks. Its also ours.

That is true.

If you enter an agreement with the devil, is it the devil's fault that you fell for the temptation?

I'm considering doing a deal with him in a few years and maybe buying a house. But before that, I am going to study him and see if I can outsmart him. I certainly won't be going into any deal blind.

But whatever agreement I enter, I will honour.