Who are the Fascists?

Originally posted by SteveR

Originally posted by antonia
I have no idea so many people on ATS were so brutally uneducated. Fascists are not Socialists. You cannot be fascist and socialist, they are two opposed systems. There is a reason the Nazi's killed people who they thought were socialists.

A very arrogant attitude for someone who has no clue. Nazi is short for National Socialism. It is the combination of nationalist social policy and socialist economic policy. Hitler was ideologically opposed to capitalism, materialism and finance, and considered all three Jewish inventions. The Nazis exercised a large degree of state control over the economy, there was no free market, capital was essentially managed on the political level. And you are confused on another point, Communists were persecuted and killed for their beliefs. Political partisans of all kinds, including democratic socialists, were interned in concentration camps for lack of allegiance to Hitler. Their war was with Bolshevism not socialism, they were socialist!

Hitler, both in public and in private, expressed strong disdain for capitalism, accusing modern capitalism of holding nations ransom in the interests of a parasitic cosmopolitan rentier class. He opposed free-market capitalism's profit-seeking impulses and desired an economy in which community interests would be upheld. He distrusted capitalism for being unreliable, due to its egotistic nature, and he preferred a state-directed economy that is subordinated to the interests of the Volk.

- Nazism

This thread is one giant facepalm.

Your post is one giant facepalm.

edit on 2012/4/22 by SteveR because: (no reason given)

Fascism was primarily opposed by Communists and socialists in Italy, Spain,
Portugal, Germany, Greece. So your statement means that ALL throughout Europe,
left wingers were fighting. Where were the right wingers exactly??? Are we all to
believe that right wingers stayed at home while communists were trying to
subvert their economic systems?

You are trying to say that all the conflict was between people who have the same
ideological foundation???

That sounds illogical and in fact it is illogical -

I won't call you stupid, but some people might suggest that due to your lack of logic
you have applied to your FOX news inspired revision

Originally posted by xuenchen
The Industrial Revolution presented many dilemmas for the European Monarchy systems.
They had to figure out a solution to control the wide area industrial expansions that were not "mobile" once established in a region. The control had to extend from the throne to the factory.

What lol? The throne of England, for example, hasn't been in charge since 1642 when they lost power to parliament, and the English Civil war began.

That was before capitalism, let alone the industrial revolution, which started in England around 1750.

Land owners were the ones who instigated the industrial revolution, when land ownership laws were changed, and 'commoners' were thrown off the land, and forced into factories and mills to be exploited. Land owners became rich, and the working class called them capitalists, and formed ideas for an alternative which they called socialism.

The rest of your post is a mixed up miss match of terms. Marx has nothing to do with fascism. Mussolini formed his fascist system after WWI, 1918. Marx died in 1883.

Are you just making it up as you go, or do you really believe this? What the hell do they teach you about European history in America? To an Englishman it's mind boggling.

Originally posted by braindeadconservatives
You are trying to say that all the conflict was between people who have the same
ideological foundation???

You are deeply, deeply confused. Socialism is an economic ideology. Left/Right mean different things depending on social or economic politics. Not all socialists were democratic liberals.

you have applied to your FOX news inspired revision

???? I'm not American, I don't watch Fox News. I study history and all I post is the historical truth. You are getting bent out of shape because you don't like socialism being linked to Nazism and can't comprehend it. I'm not attacking socialism, I'm simply stating the truth.

reply to post by LDragonFire


Why attack someone for listing relevant information on a subject and calling him a paid shill...usually when someone says this their other option was to call the thread creator racist...this tends to mean you do not have a legitimate defensive argument with substance...

Sniper

reply to post by marinesniper0317


^You

Should read...

This Post

Originally posted by SteveR
You are getting bent out of shape because you don't like socialism being linked to Nazism and can't comprehend it.

Actually if you truly studied history you would understand why they are not linked, and have nothing to do with each other.

Socialism for the billionth time is a left-wing economic system that came out of the industrial revolution, 1750-1850, and it simply means 'the workers ownership of the means of production'. There have been many ideas as to how to move from capitalism to socialism, including political, Marxism, to the direct action of the anarchists. The common goal is free association, not state control.

In the anarchist, Marxist and socialist sense, free association (also called free association of producers or, as Marx often called it, community of freely associated individuals) is a kind of relation between individuals where there is no state, social class or authority, in a society that has abolished the private property of means of production. Once private property is abolished, individuals are no longer deprived of access to means of production so they can freely associate themselves (without social constraint) to produce and reproduce their own conditions of existence and fulfill their needs and desires.

en.wikipedia.org...

Fascism is a right-wing political system created by Mussolini after WWI, 1918. It allows private ownership, capitalism, but was mostly nationalist. It was a system that put the state above the people, the opposite of socialism. That is why fascism is right wing and socialism is left wing...

The original political meanings of ‘left’ and ‘right’ have changed since their origin in the French estates general in 1789. There the people sitting on the left could be viewed as more or less anti-statists with those on the right being state-interventionists of one kind or another. In this interpretation of the pristine sense, libertarianism was clearly at the extreme left-wing.

www.la-articles.org.uk...

For a government to be truly left wing, according to Marxism (a political form of socialism), it has to be revolutionary and progressively working towards socialism. If it is not doing that it is not left-wing.

Edit; BTW there have been no successful left wing governments, power is power and power corrupts, just as the anarchists predicted. Anarchists were socialists who apposed taking the political route to socialism, Marxism, and wanted direct action, revolution.

Originally posted by SteveR

Originally posted by braindeadconservatives
You are trying to say that all the conflict was between people who have the same
ideological foundation???

You are deeply, deeply confused. Socialism is an economic ideology. Left/Right mean different things depending on social or economic politics. Not all socialists were democratic liberals.

you have applied to your FOX news inspired revision

???? I'm not American, I don't watch Fox News. I study history and all I post is the historical truth. You are getting bent out of shape because you don't like socialism being linked to Nazism and can't comprehend it. I'm not attacking socialism, I'm simply stating the truth.

Naziism was not socialism. It was merely a label!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edit: ANOK knows his stuff, please listen to him.

Originally posted by SteveR

Originally posted by braindeadconservatives
You are trying to say that all the conflict was between people who have the same
ideological foundation???

You are deeply, deeply confused. Socialism is an economic ideology. Left/Right mean different things depending on social or economic politics. Not all socialists were democratic liberals.

you have applied to your FOX news inspired revision

???? I'm not American, I don't watch Fox News. I study history and all I post is the historical truth. You are getting bent out of shape because you don't like socialism being linked to Nazism and can't comprehend it. I'm not attacking socialism, I'm simply stating the truth.

That is simply not the truth - Fascism is not a left wing ideology, which exactly
why it was opposed by communists prior too and during WWII -

Again, explain to us where the right wing was while the "left wing Fascists" and left
Wing Communists were fighting to control entire nations and their economic principles?

Or lets get some logic going, explain Who represented the right wing in Europe during
the 30's and 40's...

Lets try that, who were the right wingers in Germany, Italy, Spain and Portugal...

I'm waiting...

Originally posted by braindeadconservatives

Originally posted by SteveR

Originally posted by braindeadconservatives
You are trying to say that all the conflict was between people who have the same
ideological foundation???

You are deeply, deeply confused. Socialism is an economic ideology. Left/Right mean different things depending on social or economic politics. Not all socialists were democratic liberals.

you have applied to your FOX news inspired revision

???? I'm not American, I don't watch Fox News. I study history and all I post is the historical truth. You are getting bent out of shape because you don't like socialism being linked to Nazism and can't comprehend it. I'm not attacking socialism, I'm simply stating the truth.

That is simply not the truth - Fascism is not a left wing ideology, which exactly
why it was opposed by communists prior too and during WWII -

Again, explain to us where the right wing was while the left wing Fascists and left
Wing Communists were fighting to control entire nations and their economic principles?

Or lets get some logic going, explain Who represented the right wing in Europe during
the 30's and 40's...

Lets try that, who were the right wingers in Germany, Italy, Spain and Portugal...

I'm waiting...

Good points, the lefties/collectivists were fighting amongst themselves apparently. lol

reply to post by braindeadconservatives

But the charge is that Obama is going to take over America as a dictator like Hitler.
Obama has 12% of his term left and he has not done the things Glenn Beck or
weak sauce Sonny have proclaimed in regards to totalitarian rule. Obama is not
setting up the political climate like Hitler, Obama's supporters haven't militarized,
Obama has not promoted violence as an answer to political discourse...
I find exhausting to have to explain this to you. It is actually offensive to me to
have to point out such obvious things repeatedly.

One good solid reason that Obama Inc. has not "progressed" to the desired result is because many conservative groups did not disappear or dissolve after the 2008 elections. Obama and Co. had enough support to get into office, but not enough for a complete takeover.

Many of the fanatic ultra liberal policies and agendas have been (and continue to be) exposed in public.

That alone has stymied the efforts and confounded the ultra left leadership into a tailspin.

The Nazis for one example had much less "resistance" and "exposures". WW1 and the post war economy devastated the population.

Hitler got there easier.

Originally posted by L00kingGlass
Good points, the lefties/collectivists were fighting amongst themselves apparently. lol

The lefties were definitely fighting amongst themselves. Mostly because the Marxists became about power, which of course the anarchists apposed.

Bakunin and Marx were huge rivals when they were both members of the International Workingmen's Association (IWA). Bakunin was an anarcho-collectivist (Bakunins intermediary stage to communism, just didn't get as popular as Marxism), and so wanted direct action, revolutionary change.

International Workingmen's Association

The split between the socialists/communists was all about the path to socialism, political or direct action, revolution.

This, in part, is why the communist party betrayed the anarchists in Spain.

(keep in mind, all communist and anarchists are socialists, but not all socialists are communist or anarchists)

Originally posted by xuenchen
reply to post by braindeadconservatives

 

But the charge is that Obama is going to take over America as a dictator like Hitler.
Obama has 12% of his term left and he has not done the things Glenn Beck or
weak sauce Sonny have proclaimed in regards to totalitarian rule. Obama is not
setting up the political climate like Hitler, Obama's supporters haven't militarized,
Obama has not promoted violence as an answer to political discourse...
I find exhausting to have to explain this to you. It is actually offensive to me to
have to point out such obvious things repeatedly.

 

One good solid reason that Obama Inc. has not "progressed" to the desired result is because many conservative groups did not disappear or dissolve after the 2008 elections. Obama and Co. had enough support to get into office, but not enough for a complete takeover.

come on, are you continuing the weak fest here?

The GOP was completely lost and irrelevant in the first two years of Obama's presidency...
Hence the TEA party ("that was not a REPUBLICAN movement")

Many of the fanatic ultra liberal policies and agendas have been (and continue to be) exposed in public.

That alone has stymied the efforts and confounded the ultra left leadership into a tailspin.

The Nazis for one example had much less "resistance" and "exposures". WW1 and the post war economy devastated the population.

Hitler got there easier.

Which policies exposed?

The only thing that hurts the left is that they are not good at lying constantly and
the propagating any lie they hear with herd-like precision -

Originally posted by L00kingGlass

Originally posted by braindeadconservatives

Originally posted by SteveR

Originally posted by braindeadconservatives
You are trying to say that all the conflict was between people who have the same
ideological foundation???

You are deeply, deeply confused. Socialism is an economic ideology. Left/Right mean different things depending on social or economic politics. Not all socialists were democratic liberals.

you have applied to your FOX news inspired revision

???? I'm not American, I don't watch Fox News. I study history and all I post is the historical truth. You are getting bent out of shape because you don't like socialism being linked to Nazism and can't comprehend it. I'm not attacking socialism, I'm simply stating the truth.

That is simply not the truth - Fascism is not a left wing ideology, which exactly
why it was opposed by communists prior too and during WWII -

Again, explain to us where the right wing was while the left wing Fascists and left
Wing Communists were fighting to control entire nations and their economic principles?

Or lets get some logic going, explain Who represented the right wing in Europe during
the 30's and 40's...

Lets try that, who were the right wingers in Germany, Italy, Spain and Portugal...

I'm waiting...

Good points, the lefties/collectivists were fighting amongst themselves apparently. lol

More importantly, the right wingers A. did not exist - B. did not seem to care enough to take arms...

This entire group of the American populace are absolutely poisonous to thought

reply to post by braindeadconservatives


You are forgetting that the vast majority of conservative Americans are not in politics or employed at public or government levels.

Many are small business owners and general workers for private employers.

The smaller employers are the ones fighting every inch of the way to stay alive against the ultra liberal policies that make life in general very difficult.

The left wing policies are exposed by people in higher positions, and summarized to public level for analysis.

Originally posted by xuenchen
reply to post by braindeadconservatives

 

You are forgetting that the vast majority of conservative Americans are not in politics or employed at public or government levels.

Many are small business owners and general workers for private employers.

The smaller employers are the ones fighting every inch of the way to stay alive against the ultra liberal policies that make life in general very difficult.

The left wing policies are exposed by people in higher positions, and summarized to public level for analysis.

That is silly, there are conservatives and liberals doing all sorts of jobs...

The CIA and FBI are loaded with conservatives amigo, the pentagon is PACKED with conservative too.

Do you make this stuff up?


Please tell me which policies you are talking about, I cannot talk about something I
if I don't know what you are referring to.

Do you mean, an 8 hour work day, sexual harassment laws, discrimination laws,
breaks - which evil laws do you mean?

reply to post by braindeadconservatives


You missed the entire point.

I will get back to you as soon as I figure out your thinking.

Originally posted by xuenchen
reply to post by braindeadconservatives

 

You missed the entire point.

I will get back to you as soon as I figure out your thinking.

You basically said America was not taken over by Obama because the
conservatives stopped it... I stated that liberals controlled the government
for two years, which moots your entire point

Originally posted by braindeadconservatives

Originally posted by xuenchen
reply to post by braindeadconservatives

 

You missed the entire point.

I will get back to you as soon as I figure out your thinking.

You basically said America was not taken over by Obama because the
conservatives stopped it... I stated that liberals controlled the government
for two years, which moots your entire point

One more time Senator.

The conservative exposures limited the liberal agenda.
The left leadership was concerned about public opinion.

The first two years did show some movement, but then the 2010 elections returned Republican control to the House.
That stumped them again.

re-read all the posts again.

reply to post by xuenchen


Patently absurd.

There is no such thing as an empowered radical left in the US... The US is government is basically center-right, but sometimes trends harder right, as that's how one party chooses to get elected.

Ron Paul is too far right-wing to be President; Dennis Kucinich is far too left wing to be President... those are just about the bounds of American politics, as far as ideology is concerned.

Now, as far as economics is concerned, there's pretty much no such thing as "liberal" (i.e. socialist) economic policy in America. It just doesn't exist.

Claiming that there was/is a radical and empowered left wing government in the US, even at the executive level, is absolutely absurd. It's only radically left-wing if your a right-wing media personality trying to sell books... or a delusional culture warrior.

reply to post by neo96


Wow the only reason i think people are agreeing with you is because they can not see how much your stretching .
I guess obama is a socialist just because of his health care right? Absurd