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Who are the Fascists?

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posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 06:28 PM
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Originally posted by ANOK
reply to post by jacobe001
 


Here is the thing though if you want government reform, i.e. smaller government, historically that puts you on the left. The more left you go the less authority there is, the extreme being anarchism.

If you are a state interventionist, state involvement in the economy, that puts you on the right. It's extreme being fascism, total authority of the state.

Now capitalism cannot be left wing, because it relies on a strong state system in order to maintain control. Otherwise just like pre-WWII the workers would rise up and try to take control.

So that also means you cannot be left-wing if you support larger government, because that is state intervention.

People can call themselves what they want, it's the actions that count.


The original political meanings of ‘left’ and ‘right’ have changed since their origin in the French estates general in 1789. There the people sitting on the left could be viewed as more or less anti-statists with those on the right being state-interventionists of one kind or another. In this interpretation of the pristine sense, libertarianism was clearly at the extreme left-wing.

www.la-articles.org.uk...


Sounds like ya got that all backwards !!

Socialism, Communism, Fascism are all extreme fanatical left wing agendas.

Each suck money from the public and have gigantic government control.

Each has an elitist structure that control the wealth.




posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 06:29 PM
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Originally posted by neo96
More personal attacks because they disagree with someone else says.

Attack and marginalize and they try..

Yawn.

There you have it folks the only opinions people are allowed to have is what a liberal says you can.
edit on 22-4-2012 by neo96 because: (no reason given)


No one is trying to marginalize you, you're doing it to yourself. You were proven wrong multiple times, and you always reply with stuff like they're Liberals trying to get you. I'm not a Liberal, just pointing out the truth.

What you are saying is just not factually correct, and it's so far off base it's like something out of the National Enquirer. Forgive me if I was rude earlier, however you're just plain wrong and I question your motivations.

You're even saying that birth control by free will is eugenics, and people are being brainwashed into taking the pill. I mean c'mon man! Really?

People are entitled to believe whatever they want I guess, however this thread isn't denying ignorance, it's perpetuating it. I would have tossed it in the hoax bin long ago. Sorry man. It's good that you're creating threads, but at least tell the truth or research what it is you're writing about.

Over and out.



posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 06:30 PM
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reply to post by captainnotsoobvious
 


Beautifully said. If I could give you more stars, I most definitely would.

Your writing is very well put, especially in this age where one must choose their words like they we're playing a game of chess, because the opponent tends to just smash all the pieces if they don't like where the game is headed.

All in all, I agree with you my friend. I find that you may agree with me, as well.



posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 06:32 PM
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Originally posted by XPLodER
reply to post by jacobe001
 




I think your twisting Xploders meaning to say what you want it to mean.
Across all political forums on the net, there are many people of differing political persuasions, that agree there is not a right or left at the government level.



thank you

star,

this thread was designed to exploit people
the OP should feel ashamed.

the govenment weather left or right dem or repub ALWAYS increases in size and brutality.

the wealthy 1% corperations still pass THEIR legislation weather they pay the left or right.

this thread is designed to force individuals to argue,

xploder


Well look at it his way....

If no one "argues", how would You be able to voice your views and opinions ?

How would the people who disagree with you ever be brought into your lines of thinking ?

You need to work on your convincing skills.

Unless that is, it's all some top secret plan.



posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 06:40 PM
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reply to post by xuenchen
 


Fascism is not a left wing movement. Fascism is a combination of a variety of things and as such doesn't fall into the whole left/right thing neatly.

There's actually a vaguely interesting post on rense about the 14 defining characteristics of fascism, and taken as a whole, it's hard to say they are predominantly liberal:

www.rense.com...

That's not to say that it didn't have a basis in Marxism, etc., but that's a far cry from trying to equate, say, single payer healthcare and nazism.



posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 06:43 PM
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reply to post by b3l13v3
 


Thanks for your kind words. Sincerely.



posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 06:43 PM
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Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious
reply to post by xuenchen
 


Fascism is not a left wing movement. Fascism is a combination of a variety of things and as such doesn't fall into the whole left/right thing neatly.

There's actually a vaguely interesting post on rense about the 14 defining characteristics of fascism, and taken as a whole, it's hard to say they are predominantly liberal:

www.rense.com...

That's not to say that it didn't have a basis in Marxism, etc., but that's a far cry from trying to equate, say, single payer healthcare and nazism.


See this Post.

www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 06:48 PM
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Originally posted by xuenchen
Sounds like ya got that all backwards !!
Socialism, Communism, Fascism are all extreme fanatical left wing agendas.
Each suck money from the public and have gigantic government control.
Each has an elitist structure that control the wealth.


No, fascism is an extreme right wing fanatical system.

Right wing, as in it is extreme authority, state intervention.

Left wing means liberty, not authority. Socialism does not suck from anything, it is the workers ownership of the means of production, liberty for the working class. An economic system that needs no state, anarchists are socialists.

If socialism and communism is fascism, then why were they fighting each other in the early 1900's? Why did Mussolini, Hitler and Franco militarily appose the socialists?

Again fascism supports private ownership and nationalization, not worker ownership.

"Anarchism is stateless socialism", Mikhail Bakunin

You have it backwards, like most of Americas MSM educated people.


The original political meanings of ‘left’ and ‘right’ have changed since their origin in the French estates general in 1789. There the people sitting on the left could be viewed as more or less anti-statists with those on the right being state-interventionists of one kind or another. In this interpretation of the pristine sense, libertarianism was clearly at the extreme left-wing.

www.la-articles.org.uk...

Why do I have to spend all my time defending this, when I want to debate and take the discussion forward?

Maybe try reading a few replies before replying yourself?


edit on 4/22/2012 by ANOK because: it's a commie take-over Harry



posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 06:52 PM
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reply to post by sonnny1
 


I saw that earlier and agree with it.

I find it interesting that so many "conservatives" support Ron Paul, who is greatly opposed to all anti-trust and monopoly laws, laws that protect capatalism IMO, due to the misguided idea that a monopoly is somehow the ultimate expression of someone "winning" capitalism.


At the same time, Facism tried to deal with liberal capitalism's propensity toward boom and bust through running the economy... It's a toughie. To much control destorys Inovation and entrepreneurialism, too little and business destroys society.

The best thing is a very well structured system of checks and balances and a strong democracy full of well educated, passionate advocates of freedom AND hard work.

IMO of course.



posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 07:00 PM
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reply to post by ANOK
 


This makes perfect sense to me
Thank You.

I am for smaller government, and more freedoms unlike the fascists among us.
It explains the ever increasing totalitarian police state we find ourselves where we are corralled like cattle in order for our masters to make us more efficient workers for greater profits and control.

That is what these Mega Corporations and Financial Institutions do.
They look at us as assets to be managed for maximum efficiency and profits and since they own the government
they have no qualms writing rules and regulations to do just that.



posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 07:08 PM
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One of the pitfalls that stand in the way of understanding fascism is to confuse fascism, in its essence, with the baggage of fascism, baggage which is not always the same in every case of fascism.

When one reads about WW2, references are frequently made to the diaries of Count Ciano, the son-in-law of, and Foreign Minister under, Mussolini. From those diaries it is easy to see that the Italian Fascists regarded the Nazis as, at the very least, reckless and at worst as reckless, self destructive kooks.

Anti-semitism of the rabid, crazy variety practiced by the Nazis was something that the Italian fascists participated in only because they were forced to by circumstances.

On the other hand, Italy probably would not have even entered WW2 except for a personal failing of Mussolini, a personal desire to make a name for himself in the field of military conquest. In this he sought to ride Hitler's coat tails to glory.

These are totalitarian aspects of advanced, terminal fascism.

One could look at the United States and see similar symptoms of advanced, terminal fascism in the degree to which financial oligarchs have been given free reign to bring the nation to the brink of massive financial failure.

These are all idosyncratic failings that stand out a mile to anyone not closely caught up in them. Just as corporate power tends to monopoly and the destruction of competition, if not regulated, fascism tends toward the complete consolidation of political and financial power in the hands of a few and finally of one individual.

We aren't quite there in the United States, but it would take very little in the way of serious social unrest for a Napoleon-style figure or a junta to emerge from the military in a situation of grave national crisis.

At that point you could have a Chile-style mow down of democratic trouble makers and an assertion of corporate/state hegemony in the United States. Full blown fascism.
edit on 22-4-2012 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 07:18 PM
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reply to post by ipsedixit
 



You have a very good stance on the subjct.



There is no true political Utopia,when you look at it. Everything is like a pyramid. Regardles of what ism you try to make it into. There is ALWAYS the bedrock,the foundation,with the weight of the World on the fondation,usually the majority,that wants to live free... There is always a top,to most pyramids. I have even thought about Stateless socialism . In all these "ism's" there is the extreme Right or Left,that panders to those who are in the majority middle. None of it works,I am afraid.



posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 07:26 PM
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reply to post by sonnny1
 

Isms can be useful conceptual tools, but one of the weaknesses that we have as human beings is that we want a "set it and forget it" solution to every problem. There is no such thing for the big problems. They all require careful oversight and tweaking and adjusting to work properly, particularly problems of government.

America has the tools. The system put in place by the Founding Fathers is a great one, maybe the greatest ever devised, but there is nothing "set it and forget it" about it.

Incidentally, there is a great movie that one can see on YouTube if you do a little hunting for it. Missing, starring Jack Lemmon and Sissy Spacek about the military take-over in Chile. At the end of the movie I thought to myself, that this could very well be a picture of America in a few years. Curfews, shootings in the street, round-ups of citizens, sports stadiums used as holding pens prior to mass executions.

Fascist totalitarianism.

Missing


edit on 22-4-2012 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 07:33 PM
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reply to post by ANOK
 


The Industrial Revolution presented many dilemmas for the European Monarchy systems.
They had to figure out a solution to control the wide area industrial expansions that were not "mobile" once established in a region. The control had to extend from the throne to the factory.

Many early North American colonial expansions were in fact chartered Monarchy Corporations.
(The 13 Colonies had several)
The problem was long distance control.

Karl Marx was the hired gun to find the answers.

A lot of the Marxist ideas sprang up during the hot and heavy industrial revolution.
TPTB needed a way to control "production" as any slowdowns would now cost big money.
"production" = "population control"

"Marxism" eventually created all the variable systems (Socialism, Communism, Fascism, etc.) and with them invented an anti-thesis called the "Right Wing".
The classic Hegelian Dialectic.
The opposing "right wing" would serve as the scapegoat for the Marxist extreme "Left Wing" agendas.

Some "uprisings" in Europe in the mid 1800's had Marx himself watch'n real close....
(as if he had nothing to do with any of it)



The European Revolutions of 1848, known in some countries as the Spring of Nations, Springtime of the Peoples[3] or the Year of Revolution, were a series of political upheavals throughout Europe in 1848. It was the first (and only) Europe-wide collapse of traditional authority, but within a year reactionary forces had won out and the revolutions collapsed.

Revolutions of 1848



From 1848 to 1852, Europe was convulsed by a series of Revolutions which all ultimately failed by 1852 with the restoration of either dictatorship or the reestablishment of conservative rule. The revolutions started in a part of Italy in 1848, but the real spark was in France in 1848. From there, as news spread, revolutions broke out in other parts of Italy, Prussia, Austria and the German Confederation. However, internal divisions based on nationalism and on a radical/liberal split soon weakened the revolutionaries. By 1852 conservatives had taken advantage of the weaknesses and regained power. In France, Napoleon Bonaparate's nephew, Louis Napoleon took power in a coup d'etat.

The Revolutions first started out in France 1848 where the people wanted universal suffrage which was led by Louis Blanc. King Louis Philippe was overthrown and Louis Blanc's revolution established the second republic. The February revolution in France gave ideas to other countries in Europe which in turn started other revolutions. The February revolution in France also gave to Liberals in the German states the idea to make a proposal for a unified German country with a national parliament. But the old order was restored because the provisional government couldn't decide on a constitution for the new government. The Italian states of Europe also had a revolution which made Pope Pius IX flee Italy. This gave a leader of unification, Gieuseppe Mazzini the chance to unify Italy. This plot of Mazzini was a failure because of the Italians overwhelming protectiveness of their independence.

Within the Austrian Empire there was increased Nationalism among the Czechs, Hungarians, Germans, and other groups. This increased nationalism in March of 1848 led to riots and the ousting of Prince Klemens von Metternich and Ferdinand I, the Hapsburg Emperor. This led to the making of a constituent assembly which freed the peasantry. However, liberals and radicals were soon squabbling and subject nations began to demand autonomy from Vienna. Finally, along with Russian troops, the Hapsburgs restored themselves and regained control.



"a new revolution is possible only in consequence of a new crisis"
-Karl Marx


Marx

The worker becomes all the poorer the more wealth he produces, the more his production increases in power and range. The worker becomes an ever cheaper commodity the more commodities he creates. With the increasing value of the world of things proceeds in direct proportion to the devaluation of the world of men. Labour produces not only commodities; it produces itself and the worker as a commodity -- and does so in the proportion in which it produces commodities generally.

-Marx, Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts (1844)



posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 07:39 PM
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Originally posted by ipsedixit
Isms can be useful conceptual tools, but one of the weaknesses that we have as human beings is that we want a "set it and forget it" solution to every problem. There is no such thing for the big problems. They all require careful oversight and tweaking and adjusting to work properly, particularly problems of government.

America has the tools. The system put in place by the Founding Fathers is a great one, maybe the greatest ever devised, but there is nothing "set it and forget it" about it.



Thats been my whole point all along...
Without "real" transparancy",Our Government has run afoul.

Will take a look at that movie,after work.



posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 07:58 PM
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Originally posted by xuenchen



I disagree with the diagram.


You disagree with reality.
Are you honestly suggesting only the left knows how to be extreme?
The Taliban is extreme right wing. Yeah, enjoy that.

It might suck to you that Fascim is on your side but to just say you do not agree with the word as it is defined because you do not want is the stupidest argument in this thread.

Lots of you trying to put Fascism on the left but none of you can do it because that is not where it goes. All you can do is look at the facts and disagree. Try disagreeing with reality or the need to breathe.



posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 08:00 PM
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Originally posted by LDragonFire
reply to post by neo96
 


oh please Obama can't be both socialist/communist and fascist. Fascist is right wing always has been always will be!!



I find it quite interesting to note that the result of socialists/communism, based on the evidence from the previous century, mirrors the fascists from the previous century.

Essentially you may have been taught left and right wing, with their respective labels, however, perhaps you have failed to learn that the extreme left and the extreme right are the same thing; the resultant ideologies are actually quite indistinguishable from each other.



posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 08:00 PM
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reply to post by sonnny1
 

The movie is extremely well done, with a great script and performances by the actors. America's role in the situation in Chile is sketched out to some degree as well as the issue of who do America's representatives overseas represent, ordinary citizens or interests defined by the political power of the State.

Jack Lemmon in this movie and China Syndrome made two films that speak to us today about current problems that appear to be much much more dangerous now than they were when these films were made. Another film that addresses a different situation, the current one in the Middle East, years before it became the problem that it is now, is Three Days of the Condor.

I was blown away by Missing and by Three Days of the Condor when I watched them recently.

These movies all bear on the problem of the interrelationship of State, Corporate and Citizen power.



posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 08:18 PM
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Originally posted by sonnny1

Originally posted by braindeadconservatives

Obama's a dictator now


If Obama were a dictator, why didn't he impose universal healthcare like he wanted to?






1.Removing local police presence from communities and replacing them with a federally-paid (that’s US taxpayer-paid) Obama-controlled National Police force. It is starting—in earnest—in Detroit




2.Obama is stepping up his issuance of illegal Executive Orders, INCLUDING the Dream Act that was voted down by Congress and opposed by a majority of the American people. Nevertheless, in June 2011, Obama issued an Executive fiat to ‘create’ it. Congress did nothing and still does nothing today



4.The Obama/Holder “Operation Gunwalker: Fast & Furious” was and is directly attributable to Dictator-in-Chief Obama. Since shortly after the C-span2 video was published in 2009, in my columns I have referred to Deputy Attorney General Ogden’s statement on said video that he was “directed” by “the president” to “take action” against the drug cartels. This action began as “Operation Gunrunner” and its name was changed to the infamous one we know today. However, the operation was never planned to fight against the drug cartels. Instead, it was developed as a means to fight WITH the cartels against the US citizenry. The operation was affected (and don’t forget “directed“) by Obama and his Attorney General Eric Holder to do one thing: Remove legally-owned guns from US citizen under the Obama-manipulated premise that guns were being illegally sold to the drug cartels by Americans.


Final Implementation of Obama Dictatorship in Progress on all levels

It took Hitler some time also........



So where is the police force? Obama's term is almost over, I swear by god you guys
are nothing but clowns who repeat the most insane and acidic things you can come up with.



posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 08:23 PM
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Originally posted by LErickson

Originally posted by xuenchen



I disagree with the diagram.


You disagree with reality.
Are you honestly suggesting only the left knows how to be extreme?
The Taliban is extreme right wing. Yeah, enjoy that.

It might suck to you that Fascim is on your side but to just say you do not agree with the word as it is defined because you do not want is the stupidest argument in this thread.

Lots of you trying to put Fascism on the left but none of you can do it because that is not where it goes. All you can do is look at the facts and disagree. Try disagreeing with reality or the need to breathe.


Erickson, the right wing is so perfect, they are not capable of being extreme, isn't
that an F-ing miracle? All joking aside this is what made the right wing Nazis dangerous,
they were incapable of looking at themselves and their ideas, very familiar territory.




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