Interesting that there isn't more focus on this. Using Clinton as an example is an excellent way to let people know that socialized medicine is not the answer.

I wonder what Hilary's thoughts are on this now that it has hit so close to home. Also, isn't Kerry pushing for something similar?

Jemison

So they die one way or the other. Socialized or Capitalized, there will still be people dying.

In a capitalized healthcare system, the people who can't afford healthcare will die. And that will probably be a lot more than with socialized healthcare.

In a capitalized healthcare system, the people who can't afford healthcare will die. And that will probably be a lot more than with socialized healthcare.

There are plenty of uninsured people showing up in Emergency rooms and having emergency surgery or whatever they need. People, insured or not, are NOT turned away from the E.R.

In California alone we have between 700 million - 1 billion dollars a year in medical bills from the uninsured. That billion dollar bill is NOT from people being turned away and denied medical treatment!

Jemison

In socialized health care countries everyone has a chance for a fair treatment. And having a socialized health care system doesn't mean you can't go to a private doctor and pay from your own pocket.

You could gist this story to: "Ex-president of a country had a good insurance, possibly threatening condition, visited an expensive doctor, got treated fast." That sentence hardly sounds like proof of the superiority of capitalistic health care.

You just don't hear about the regular Joe's who are told they are not about to die this instant, but they should get the money for a surgery or die. Mild chest pain doesn't mean you instantly get a surgery if you wander to the nearest E.R.

How many people in US die every year who have the same symptoms as clinton but don't have the money or insurance for surgery? I rather wait for my treatment for 11 months than wait if I win the lottery or die.

In addition, living in a capitalist health care country with insurance is not a guarantee of fast treatment. If I've understood correctly sometimes the insurance companies just 'wait it out'. Or fight to the end that the surgery would be unnecessary/dangerous/not proven to help/not applicable to this case. Insurance company won't pay -> hospital won't do the surgery...

[edit on 27-9-2004 by vibetic]

Originally posted by vibetic
In socialized health care countries everyone has a chance for a fair treatment. I rather wait for my treatment for 11 months ..

This should read - In socialized heath care countries everyone
has equal chance of death. If you would rather wait for treatment
for 11 months you will die.

Bill Clinton was just days from a major blowout and death.
Days. Not 11 months.

In addition, living in a capitalist health care country with insurance is not a guarantee of fast treatment. If I've understood correctly sometimes the insurance companies just 'wait it out'. Or fight to the end that the surgery would be unnecessary/dangerous/not proven to help/not applicable to this case. Insurance company won't pay -> hospital won't do the surgery...

Generally the hoopla over Insurance approving or disapproving of services is not applicable to emergency type situations. If someone goes into the E.R. and needs surgery the Doctors will do it. It's part of their hippocratic oath to treat the patient. They will not let a person die because they couldn't get through to the Insurance company or because the person didn't have insurance at all. I'm sure that on occassion it happens but for the most part emergency care is given and the cost/bill is a secondary concern.

If you are talking about hip replacements and non urgent situations, yes, Insurance companies can be a pain in the neck. No doubt about it.

Jemison

This should read - In socialized heath care countries everyone
has equal chance of death. If you would rather wait for treatment
for 11 months you will die.

Bill Clinton was just days from a major blowout and death.
Days. Not 11 months.

Even if you are in a socialized health care country you won't end up waiting 11 months on E.R. if you have urgent problems. I believe 11 months is more like in the upper end of routine check up or in other not instantly life-threatening situations. My point was comparing how the poor are treated in socialized and capitalistic systems if the problem isn't imminent.


[edit on 27-9-2004 by vibetic]

From personal experience I can declare this to be utter BS :p(at least for belgium)

First, my own Father. Went to dokter because of an aching arm. Mother and me saw it as the well known forbode of cardiac problems.
He went to the doc, same evening he called, he could've gone right away, but was busy working on his farm and wanted to go when he was finished.

He went in, docter did a cardiogram, saw he had heartattacks before and was making a new attack while taking the cardiogram.

Dokter sent him to hospital emergency room, in hospital they verified the cardiogram, saw he was making another one. Called the cardiologists, half an hour later, he was being put under narcosis and operated.

Then a collegue of my mom.
Same story as my dad, but he felt it was his heart, went in right away and was operated about an hour later after necesary tests were done.

Then, me and a friend went into emergency room with her baby, it had trouble breathing, its lungs were full of muck. Dokters put in an emergency drain right away, we didn't see a bill for it or anything else untill half a year later.

Healthcare here is extremely well, both on financial and "care" sides.

I have to say though, that there are reports comming that people are comming from holland into belgium to take dokter visits. They say its more for specific things like pediatrist and cardiologists, because we have some very good specialists in those fields, then because there are waitinglists there.

By the time your hospital and medical insurance agree if an operation or other treatment are given a go ahead, of is covered by that insurance, I would already be getting ready to go back home all healed

The article you posted seems to be more hearsay and capitalist banter then experience and facts about the subject.

Originally posted by Jemison

In a capitalized healthcare system, the people who can't afford healthcare will die. And that will probably be a lot more than with socialized healthcare.

There are plenty of uninsured people showing up in Emergency rooms and having emergency surgery or whatever they need. People, insured or not, are NOT turned away from the E.R.

In California alone we have between 700 million - 1 billion dollars a year in medical bills from the uninsured. That billion dollar bill is NOT from people being turned away and denied medical treatment!

Jemison

If being uninsured was an illness....it would be the third leading cause of premature deaths. just google "premature death" and see what you get.. of course there are a few other things claiming that esteemed position.

But, well, if Clinton was a resident of NY, and Hillary was making around $20,000-$40,000/ year, with a family of five, and he was her dependant....he probably would have been screwed.

And, umm......as far as I know around me, there are no clinics that will provide you reduced medicine on a sliding scale. And, there really aren't that many clinics operating on one.

My mother is 80 and on medicare and medicade. It take her up to 6 months or more to see a doctor sometimes concerning a problem she keeps having. Of course the doctor never really helps her with her problem because it would require spending too much money too solve in the form of an operation so she gets a shot and that helps sometimes for a little while. And the doctor she is seeing who she can't change BTW because that was the doctor medicare told her to see, she's a quack anyway because if she was any good she would be able to do more for her.

As far as going to the ER here your looking at waiting 6 or 8 hours or more to be seen unless you come in shot in the head or something because the ERs' are full mostly because of all the poor people on welfare that can't afford to see a doctor out of pocket going there for things like colds and other minor problems or the people there are illeagals who work under the table and have no insurance but can't be turned away no matter how minor there needs are.

Yea health care in this country is great huh? Tell that to my mother and the millions of other people in this country that have no insurance and can't afford to visit a doctor out of pocket. The people that think the health care system here is better than in Canada let's say, are people that can afford their health care. If that was my mother instead of Clinton that needed that operation I'd be visiting her in the cemetary, not a hospital bed because the test that Clinton got with the dye being injected to discover the clog would not be performed on her to begin with most likely.

America does have the best health care in the world if you can afford it. The other people dont count.

Originally posted by TexasConspiracyNut
My mother is 80 and on medicare and medicade. It take her up to 6 months or more to see a doctor sometimes concerning a problem she keeps having. Of course the doctor never really helps her with her problem because it would require spending too much money too solve in the form of an operation so she gets a shot and that helps sometimes for a little while. And the doctor she is seeing who she can't change BTW because that was the doctor medicare told her to see, she's a quack anyway because if she was any good she would be able to do more for her.

As far as going to the ER here your looking at waiting 6 or 8 hours or more to be seen unless you come in shot in the head or something because the ERs' are full mostly because of all the poor people on welfare that can't afford to see a doctor out of pocket going there for things like colds and other minor problems or the people there are illeagals who work under the table and have no insurance but can't be turned away no matter how minor there needs are.

Yea health care in this country is great huh? Tell that to my mother and the millions of other people in this country that have no insurance and can't afford to visit a doctor out of pocket. The people that think the health care system here is better than in Canada let's say, are people that can afford their health care. If that was my mother instead of Clinton that needed that operation I'd be visiting her in the cemetary, not a hospital bed because the test that Clinton got with the dye being injected to discover the clog would not be performed on her to begin with most likely.

America does have the best health care in the world if you can afford it. The other people dont count.

unfortunately, the taxes paid by those "other people" probably did a great deal to build that great health care system that the rich is enjoying...from grants for research and developement, to tax money to help the poor recieve it....and then there is the great medicare program Bush signed recently and his other great idea of mental health screenings for everyone in america....
meanwhile.....I don't work because of an undiagnosed problem that is causing me to not be able to walk too good sometimes....hummm.....stupidity at it's finest I guess...
hope he ain't counting on me to generate any taxmoney to help pay for these great boosts to the healthcare system...won't happen.

My mom was sick for a long time, and finally ended up in the emergency room. The doctor at the hospital took one look at all the drugs her doctor was giving her and asked...."What's is he trying to do, kill you?" ...the interactions of the drugs was what had been causing the problems all along.....finally someone thought to look at all those drugs and connect the dots. For the amount of genuine service we get from doctors, well....the price we pay is far too much!!

Yea, most good doctors are in private practice charging big money for office visits and a lot refuse to deal with medicare and the doctors that deal with medicare are more often than not less qualified although there are a few out there that still care. The sad fact is most doctors only care about money. Look at the number of doctors at indian reservations or practicing in poor areas of the country compared to the number of doctors in rich areas as proof. IMO this causes poor health care for the poor as well. All the rich good doctors are taking care of Clinton or little rich kids and the poor kid on the reservation is being treated by an overworked doctor straight out of med school that is only there to begin with because he made a deal to practice there for a year or two in order to get through medical school after which he will go into private practice around a bunch of rich people.

Does the US have Social Security? Or does it have Socialist Security?

Why do some people talk of "socialist health care system" instead of "social health care system"? Is it to give it a "USSR" look?

Do you think that even in a country with a "socialist health care system" where a normal person has to wait 6 months for some heart treatment, if a ex-president went to the hospital they would put him on the list?

Social health care systems are not perfect, but at least I can go to the doctor when I want and pay 2 Euro for it. I may change doctor if I want. My father once went to the hospital, they made blood tests, x-rays, EEG, etc. 2 months latter the bill arrived, and it was something like 15 Euro for all that.
Also, I need to take some drugs always, because I have asthma, and those drugs cost me around 75 Euro each year, which I can deduct from the taxes.

Obviously, we all have to pay for this system, and all workers not self employed pay 11% of their salary, while the employer pays around 23%.


[edit on 27/9/2004 by ArMaP]

The real question should be... Forget it.

[edit on 28-9-2004 by TexasConspiracyNut]

Looks to me like Clintion was eating those Big Macs back in like '92 at least. So he had about 12 years to figure out that whole cholesterol and heart problem thing.