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America - April 19th, The Start of the Revolution - A REVISIT

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posted on Apr, 21 2012 @ 10:23 AM
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reply to post by daynight42
 




Most people aren't there, but beyond that, you ain't doing jack to fix the problem either. You post messages, and anyone powerful is laughing at this pathetic excuse and "display of action." Just a reality check for our typing saviors, that's all!


Exactly why I chose to reply to you in the first place because there you go again - assuming you know who I am and what I do when in fact - you don't know anything about me. You know my persona (and very little of it) that I portray on a forum. From that you assume that I am a person of inaction, someone who types and never does anything but the problem there is exactly what I said - you assume... and your assumptions are wrong.

I already stated here, and on numerous occasions on ATS that come 2013 if the revolution does not start naturally by the hands of the people rising up, then I will be the one to ignite the flame. Do you think an action like that consists of posting messages on here? Do you think that I actually believe that hanging flyers or attending protests or hanging out at the voting booth is going to spark a revolution?

No, while you see me as a person typing away on here for an hour of my life each day, the remaining 23 hours of my life are dedicated to a purpose. First and foremost to my family and my life, second of all to my goal that I set for myself 4 years ago. It isn't going to be some simple piece of stop and go action that you will forget once the weekend is over, I know what it is going to take to plant the seeds, and I have been preparing to do what it takes for many years. So I'd appreciate it for you to stop assuming right now.


The same can be said for Skewed. You know nothing of him/her. You best reserve your judgements for when they are needed instead of when they make you look foolish.





And sure, the things you say may be true, but your percentages are messed up. 99% of the people in this country aren't brainwashed and asleep. It is more like 70%. You have to start looking for the good in life or else you aren't ever going to find a purpose to it. Sure if people suddenly decided to all wake up over night and take the country back, we could have it back tomorrow, but it isn't going to happen, so why even think about it? Why even delude yourself the idea? Why not instead look at the ideas that may just work?

Because you see, if revolution does come into this country - a few things will begin to happen. First and foremost will be the direct changes in the government and frivolous laws. Suddenly there will be a lot more freedoms to do little things that people won't even realize they will be able to do them. Slowly but surely the economy will repair itself, and I'm not talking about the current corporatist economy, because as government reforms, corporations will soon find that their current practices will no longer allow them to stay afloat, and corrections will finally be able to take place. And yes, the economy will crash and business will go under because it was supposed to happen back in the 1990's and in 2008 but we stopped in both times. But once it is all said and done better jobs will return to this country, better products will be produced in this country, and perhaps better standards of living will be spread throughout all walks of life in this country.

But no matter what happens there are going to be good people and bad people. Nothing is going to change that no matter where you go. And if you just focus on the bad people and the people who never give a damn regardless of what is happening, then you begin to lose hope. And once you lose hope... well then you lose any point of living in this world any more.


You remind me of me about 5-6 years ago. I protested, I yelled, I got so angry and I struggled thinking what I was going to do about it. Eventually I came online and started yelling about it and realized just how much other people yelled about it and did nothing. That is why there comes a point where you need to ask yourself a simple question:

Am I going to continue to yell and complain and do nothing...

...or am I actually going to do something about this?



I'm going to do something about it.

It may take everything I have and cost me my life - but I will do something about it.




I just hope when the time comes... I'm not alone. Cause it sure does feel lonely out on that ledge sometimes.




posted on Apr, 21 2012 @ 11:36 AM
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reply to post by gwydionblack
 


Whatever it is that you are thinking, which I think it involves violence, of which I may be wrong - please don't do it. There are far safer legal responsible institutions to use for the fight, and most important of all are brains.

The founding fathers had no such institutions during their times, and the only recourse was by the bullet. Step into their shoes - it was a profound, fearful and heart rending moment, to pull that first shot as the ONLY way for freedom. They were not soldiers, but only christian farmers and traders, but when faced with overwhelming injustices and repression, they took that course.

Even far more painful was the aftermath of the first bullet against the mightiest army in the then world - Brit redcoats. There can be no words to expressed the ordeal of war, violence, pain and suffering the founding fathers, mothers and families that went through.

But they knew they had to do it, so that they, and if not many of themselves, the next innocent generations can be free from serfdom and the chains of monarchy.

Fortunately, they won after much sacrifices and uncommon courage, and after winning, the noble founding fathers instituted far reaching and insightful reforms for governance of a free people through the sacred Constitution, which holds relevance and guarantees the responsible freedom and civilisation of a People in the American Continent, a document which is looked up and followed by other nation's people around the world even today.

They wrote and supported that document so that YOU, the very next generations, did not have to go through the hell they went through, but to fully make use of it intelligently, responsibly and honestly to effect change without a single bullet fired.

There will come a time when violence is necessary, such as the kind of tyranny and repression China/Russia and a whole lot of other dictatorships practiced in other nations around the world. But that time had not come for America yet, despite blatant attempts to use sleight of hand techniques by the corporations and their puppets to tear the constitution. The sacred Constitution still stands. Because there are far more intelligent and noble good men on the watch.

To use violence now is to not only play into evill men's agendas, it would destroy every shred of sacrifice and honour to the founding fathers whom had gave up their lives for us.

Using violence now will result falling into a trap, with sincere leaders identified, apprehended and jailed through the use of rule of law, something evil men are setting up and are only awaiting. We had already witnessed how it had been done by the brutal power crazed CCP China regime for decades. Greed filled capitalists are no less brutal, for money is their god.

No. Two can play the game.

Evil men thought that they have the best brains and paid much for it, but are only complacent. There are intelligent good men on our side. It calls for strategies and plans, not outright brawns now, so that none need suffer. Evil men cares nothing for humans, but if you wish to claimed that birthright from founding fathers, then you must leave none behind, and that involves no violence or needless sacrifices now. Every human life is precious and means something special to another, including yours.

Be patient. Changes are already happening, and more are on the way using this path. OWS may be scoffed at, but it had served its purpose. Industries are slowly back on track. Racial profiling and stand your ground policies are at a standstill. Misuse of religion to seize power had been curtailed. They had listened. A few of the wealthy had started using their wealth for social purposes and started job creation. There still is more to be done.

Playing it intelligently is the only course now. It will take time. Bear with it, change and victory will come, through our families, relatives and friends, which makes up our society, if not for ourselves, it will be for the innocent next generations...



posted on Apr, 21 2012 @ 12:00 PM
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reply to post by SeekerofTruth101
 


What I am planning may involve violence. Not against people, however. The great thing about a message is that it can be sent without a single life being lost, a concept that TPTB have failed to understand so ceremoniously throughout their reign over mankind. Each time they sought to send a message or pass a new dictation, they did it through the destruction of human life - that is not my way because I... am better than they are.

But what you fail to see is that NOW the only recourse is by the proverbial bullet as well - if not the firing of it upon them then the open threat that if they do not listen then it WILL BE FIRED. And if they choose to answer that threat by firing first then they would only ensure what we knew all along - that they were never willing to listen to the people to being with... and that it was going to come to violent revolution anyway.

The Constitution no longer stands. Every single moment of every single day that the federal government exceeds the powers granted to them within that document, the Constitution is denied. It is forgotten. It is a footnote. The name of security has squandered it and government power has torn it to shreds. It means - NOTHING.

But this trap argument - oh I have heard this time and time and time AGAIN.

It is nothing more than another excuse!

DON'T FIGHT BACK, NO! You are doing exactly what they want you to do!

Instead - just keep protesting - keeping writing your Senators, keep allowing your words to fall on deaf ears. Keep pretending like the inch they give is worth a foot, while the next week they continue to take miles, all in the name of popular contentment.

NOTHING HAS CHANGED. NOTHING. Nothing. Occupy Wall Street has accomplished - nothing. Industry back on track? That must be a joke. Misuse of religion to seize power? This has never even been a problem.

The very idea that positive change is occurring is a joke, and the thought that there is someone that believes it - is even more hilarious. The debt rises. Jobless rates continue to be at an all time high and they continue to lie about it. Business continues to fail. Government continues to ignore the people. The election system is a clear sham. We are now threatened to not be able to leave the country if we don't pay our taxes. And we stand on the brink of World War III, moments away from what could be a nuclear world war because things are... getting better?


No.

The plan continues on as it ever has. I have heard this same ramble time and time again. It is hard to see exactly what you are trying to protect from what I might do come 2013...

Are you trying to protect me... and save my life and well being?

Are you trying to protect you... and save your current standard of living because you are content with the system?

or

Are you trying to protect the government... and you actually think things are getting better?


I could understand the first two but as for the third... that is just a delusional world view.
edit on 21-4-2012 by gwydionblack because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 21 2012 @ 02:28 PM
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reply to post by gwydionblack
 


You could have said you planned on taking further action in public view much earlier and spared the debate. I think people come to the internet to vent, and that makes them feel better, and then they're okay for a while. I will try to see this in a positive sense and take your word for it.

I would strongly advise against speaking about any acts of violence over the phone or on the internet. It will likely put you on some list, if these people are monitoring it, and I believe they should be and are for their own protection and not to be a fool. I could be wrong.

As to seeker, I'm sorry, but these criminals use violence whenever they need to, and they are the dirtiest players in the game. They wouldn't think twice about demolishing an entire set of city blocks just to further protect themselves. These are the kind of people they have proven themselves to be. A bunch of people yelling is a problem for them, and I would certainly say that be given all the chance to work. But, how would they go about it if they were us and wanted to attack us? Ask for permission? Fuss? Oh, hell no. It'd be planned out to every last detail, but it wouldn't take much effort because most Americans are gullible or let tragedies happen without giving them much analysis or wondering too much. ("Just get those brown people! I knew it was them just like Bush did within 48 hours! Yea, war!"). I found that out on 9/11. It's 11 years later, and I am still not seeing anyone I know personally changing their minds or getting upset over it. They've moved on, and the door is wide open for something similar to happen again. AGAIN? Can you believe that? I can!

I will add that it is possible to tell things about a person by their language, tone / 'style.' If you are consistent with who you are in real life, then a decent judgement can be drawn. I could be wrong personally, true. I could be right as well. I don't know you in real life, but I will assume your words represent you. There are certain things that can be judged without mistake, and I stand behind what I said based on what I read. (Now, you finally add some details. I am not going to consider that. In my eyes, you could have been up front much earlier. You certainly don't see shy about it, after all.)

I will skip over addressing other points you covered and spare us both the debate on opinions and estimates, etc. I said what I had to say, and I will stand behind it still based on those earlier posts before this second to last one. You still criticized people out doing what you say you will wait until 2013-ish to do. For all you know, it could be over by then. I don't know. I believe I have full reason to cast doubt on you and skewer both. But, this is been petty enough. It's amounted to enough internet chatter as it is.



posted on Apr, 21 2012 @ 02:41 PM
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Originally posted by gwydionblack

The plan continues on as it ever has. I have heard this same ramble time and time again. It is hard to see exactly what you are trying to protect from what I might do come 2013...

Are you trying to protect me... and save my life and well being?

Are you trying to protect you... and save your current standard of living because you are content with the system?

or

Are you trying to protect the government... and you actually think things are getting better?


I could understand the first two but as for the third... that is just a delusional world view.
edit on 21-4-2012 by gwydionblack because: (no reason given)


1. YOU and I ARE the government. YOU and I elected representatives to that hallowed hall, to discuss and debate over issues that we have in common. If those representatives failed, we have the power to boot and replaced them, as is the legacy left behind by founding fathers whom cared about us all. The responsibility of govs falls on You and I. Their failure or success is ours.


2. I am no stranger or coward to the necessasities of needed violence. I have been in combat on both war and economic battlefields, saved lives and came through alive. I only wish to spare the suffering and pain for others over what I had experienced.


3. It boils down to you and me, but I will never impose my will or rob you of your free will. I only hope that you may consider what I had written. Every human life is precious and mean something special to another, including yours.

There are many other options still avaliable in the fight. I know many are suffering economically today, and worldwide - worries of economic desolation and wars. Many had lost everything, and with nothing more to lose, they will gladly give up their lives for the sake of others and embrace death as a release when push comes to a shove, including even myself.

But such sacrifices must be of value and would make change possible, or our lives will and would have only been in vain. Humanity must never become the beasts that would callously and needlessly destroy human lives, or the fight would have been for nought.

May you reconsider.




posted on Apr, 21 2012 @ 03:48 PM
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reply to post by daynight42
 


Well in my defense I have been stating on ATS for some time that I planned to do something, just not so openly in this particular topic. I am sure I am already on whatever lists, but I am careful about my words I use because I know limitations. Besides, I always say if anyone wanted to come take big bad old me down, feel free to do so - they wouldn't have anything against me to be quite honest.

I wait until 2013 for personal reasons and that is just because of the hope that maybe 2012 will possibly bring about the change that everyone thinks it might by itself. If it does not, well, then I don't wait anymore. I go ahead and get things done, plain and simple.



reply to post by SeekerofTruth101
 




1. YOU and I ARE the government. YOU and I elected representatives to that hallowed hall, to discuss and debate over issues that we have in common. If those representatives failed, we have the power to boot and replaced them, as is the legacy left behind by founding fathers whom cared about us all. The responsibility of govs falls on You and I. Their failure or success is ours.


No. Not anymore. I did not elect anyone because I choose not to partake in said shame that you honestly seem to THINK still works. These representatives are held to no accountability. Which means that when we elect one criminal and realize it 4 years later, and then elect in a new criminal who gave us the same false promises as the last, that one continues to do the same song and dance with not accountability by out government. No legal action, no reason to listen to said constituents. The only time they need to give a damn is to pander for the votes and that is what continues to happen.

They don't represent us - they represent themselves. You THINK they represent us. You are fooled just like the rest.




3. It boils down to you and me, but I will never impose my will or rob you of your free will. I only hope that you may consider what I had written. Every human life is precious and mean something special to another, including yours.


And I the same towards you. But yet the government and the majority continues to impose its will upon everyone in the Democracy which we were never supposed to have. I agree, human life is precious, and I will hold it dear to me... but I will also not hesitate to defend it at all costs.


My hope is that nobody, not I, not anyone in government, or not anyone who stands against government will have to give up their lives for the cause. But you and I both know that it will not stand chance. When the time comes for me to step forward, I will do so armed but in peace and so will the others who stand beside me. The demands will be simple enough in that this country be returned to the hands of the people, under Constitutional law, and under Constitutional Republic, and all those in government will now step down and adhere to the will of the people and the interim United States government.

And then we will march forward. And in that march there is going to be one of two things that happen. The guards of the government will either step to the side and all use to march past and take control of the government in question, or they will incite violence against us and cause what could have been a bloodless revolution to be a very, very bloody battle. And it will not be me who opens fire, it will not be the revolution that proves that blood needs to be spilled in order to defend our principles - it will be those in power who prove that violence has been and always will be their final response to anyone who tries to take away their power - the power that does not belong to them at all.

So I ask that you reconsider. When the time comes to finally make a stand - be there and know that you took part in the moment that made a difference. And as I said - hopefully others will be there to do the same.



posted on Apr, 21 2012 @ 04:51 PM
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Originally posted by BIHOTZ
Now imagine what the active military will think. Will they side against their own people?

I think that unless the government caters to military families , which we know they don't, they will face the very people they trained to subjugate foreign populations.



The police do it. I think most people do what they feel is in their best interests financially, and seeing who butters their bread.. it wouldn't surprise me. At least in the beginning or until they are affected directly by TPTB.



posted on Apr, 21 2012 @ 07:09 PM
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Originally posted by UnlimitedSky

Originally posted by OrionStarfire
reply to post by Damrod
 


Thank you, and sorry about the lack of paragraphs but I always try to cram in as much as possible to get my point across.



Very bad and ineffective strategy. I did not read your post because I felt exhausted just looking at it at a glance.

Your point will in the least be put across if broken down into paragraphs because people will actually read it!
Your current strategy looses you lots of readers, be assured. A wall of text is extremely hard to climb.


I doubt it if OrionStarFire will care much about those who couldn't/wouldn't read his/her(?) post. More likely s/he will consider you one of lesser intelligence. I don't.. but reading the comments written by OSF, I can imagine that might be her way of thinking.



posted on Apr, 21 2012 @ 07:43 PM
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reply to post by OrionStarfire
 


Ahhh, text wall of death!


I tried to read a little, and I think what you're saying is that "things can't get better, it's in our nature to let tyrants rise"?

I think you're neglecting several nations, several just in Europe, where the quality of life is far higher than that of the USA.

It's all about perspectives. If you live in a village in Sweden, your quality of life will almost undoubtedly be higher than if you live in New York, for example.

Ultimately, it comes down to that one fact. Whatever government is in power, it's dominance over your life is the problem.

I agree that people naturally seek leadership, I think this has been proven. But it hasn't always been this way, and there are regions of the world where this still isn't the case. There are remote tribes right now where they have no "leaders". They work as a community of equals.

Why do you think it is impossible for us to have that (again)?



posted on Apr, 21 2012 @ 07:46 PM
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Originally posted by sapien82
reply to post by g146541
 



the manifesto I mentioned for our brave new world.
It should be a ten point manifesto as I previously posted (changing to 12 as it fits with the zodiac)
the manifesto for the movement of the future of the human race.
I will call it the Unity movement , through unity of our species we can accomplish anything
and all those who stand against us will be drowned out in a sea of truth through ovewhelming
numbers of humans who feel the exact same way about our planet and our species.

Im asking any ATS members to help with the creation of the manifesto
the 12 points will need to be drafted and the document will be created and made into digital PDF
for print and mass production , we need a website , we need a forum , we need divisions for each continnent
and most of all we need as many people to hear it as possible !


For some reason when I read your comment the thing I couldn't get out of my head was a galactic codex I had read. I actually started a thread about it last night: www.abovetopsecret.com... because of this thread and your comment.

It isn't a manifesto and so I'm not entirely sure why I felt so compelled, but there it is anyway.



posted on Apr, 21 2012 @ 08:06 PM
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Originally posted by RobinB022

Originally posted by BIHOTZ
Now imagine what the active military will think. Will they side against their own people?

I think that unless the government caters to military families , which we know they don't, they will face the very people they trained to subjugate foreign populations.



The police do it. I think most people do what they feel is in their best interests financially, and seeing who butters their bread.. it wouldn't surprise me. At least in the beginning or until they are affected directly by TPTB.


I absolutely agree, we've seen this happen across the USA and in numerous other countries. Do we imagine that the riot police in Athens don't have families? Are they not beating the people they went to school with?

In Oakland, hundreds of riot police attacked their own citizens, almost killing one. Plenty of them may have just been doing their jobs, but they still stood by and did nothing when they witnessed their colleagues threatening the lives of the people they are sworn to protect.

The Syrian military are attacking their own people right now. You can argue that they are on opposite sites of religious/political lines, but how is that dichotomy any different to the racial and partisan divides in the USA? The occupy movement is already seen as "lefty" by the radical right-wing, and how many of those military leaders are right-wing maniacs?

I think it's incredibly naive to believe that the military would not attack its own people. All it would take is some clever propaganda from the government and all protesters would be labeled as terrorists, open to attack to "defend the nation". When there is such massive control of the media too, with expected news blackouts in that kind of event, those military would not know that the movement they are attacking is a national movement, as far as they are concerned they are attacking a domestic threat in one area...

I really hope that it doesn't happen, but in all honesty I don't think either of our governments are doing anything to prevent it. I honestly think they are so detached from the realities of existence for the majority that they simply don't get it.



posted on Apr, 21 2012 @ 11:36 PM
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reply to post by detachedindividual
 


I believe you underestimate the spirit of many of our own troops. Not to say it wouldn't happen at all, but I think there would at least be a significant split, granted that it's a conclusion of inductive reasoning based on small figures of my own personal acquaintances.

You could also account for our veterans, as one member previously pointed out. Those that were lead to believe they fought for freedom and are no longer under orders or major payroll. Of course, I acknowledge that there's that clause of contract "extension" and the possibility of recent veterans being called back into duty (forgive my lack of recollection for the specifics). Who knows for certain? That ball could fall in either hand at this point.

I think it would largely depend on the circumstances of the kick-off.



posted on Apr, 21 2012 @ 11:48 PM
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That being said, I stand by my resolution of letting the "oppressors" take the first strike. Any form of violent opposition before that has way too big a chance of being twisted to make any aggressors out to be unstable terrorists. Until then, I'll keep my dissent peaceful without turning a blind eye to the possibility to avoid being caught off guard.

On a little side note, I found this article today on one perception of a timeline of recent events. Maybe a little off-topic, and if so I apologize, but I think it's somewhat relevant.

Sound the alarm




God pray that we keep this true history secured as recorded for the purpose of assuring that when our Republic is established this time, it, our country, and the freedom, liberty, and prosperity it represents will be the sole property of those who will have fought and died for it.

God bless the idea of the Republic, death to the international corporate mafia, we shall prevail.


edit on 22-4-2012 by jlm912 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 10:20 AM
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reply to post by RobinB022
 


Please can everybody stop gunning me down for pointing out the general PLATONIC observation I made!

I humbly appologise for everyone I offended seeing as the person I adressed appears to have Over and Above Top Secret status that elevates him/her to a level of the untouchables. Yes, his/ her post was good but even Shakespeare followed the language rules, no matter how glorified the contenst of his writings.

But please lay off me now, guys and gals, will ya!?

Surely after the 6th person has rained down on my head about this it becomes like a double double double post or something. Don't know what to call it when it has been posted 6 times, apparently I am to stupid find the correct term. Maybe sixaple post?

Pew! Just spit out my bones when you are all finished, please!?



posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 11:55 AM
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reply to post by detachedindividual
 


I believe jlm912 put it right, you underestimate the spirit of the troops and the American spirit in general. And I do not readily compare police forces to troops. Police officers do not take their positions as seriously as military personnel, and they are not required to take the oath that the military is required, and which many become very much attached to.

No, they would not all be on the side of the revolution, but it would most definitely be a split in the ranks, and more towards the side of the people.


reply to post by jlm912
 


The key is, when the revolution makes the first strike, to make sure that the people know how and exactly why it was done and that it was not done with terrorist intent. This is done using the tool you see before us friend - the internet. Youtube, Facebook, Twitter - responsibility must be taken for any action and accountability must be taken before and false accusations and labels can be placed upon any actions. Once the word is out, the government can do anything to try to discredit the movement, but they will know the reason for the first blows.


reply to post by UnlimitedSky
 


I'd like to apologize on behalf of the people in my topic for derailing it with such things. Everyone is entitled to their opinions - you included. People will always be distracted by simplistic differences instead of focuses on key issues, and that is also a problem which faces our society.

Hopefully we can all move on from the debased bickering, as I have been doing my best to ignore - whether it be personal attacks or attacks on political beliefs.



posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 01:57 PM
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reply to post by gwydionblack
 


Godspeed when the time comes.

Gwydion, are you familiar with Chip Tatum?



posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 02:35 PM
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reply to post by mytheroy
 





The solution is another civil war!


You have no idea what a civil war is if you think that is the solution. Look it up.



posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 05:19 PM
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reply to post by jlm912
 


I am vaguely familiar with the Chip Tatum story.

Am I to be afraid of such things?



posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 09:40 PM
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reply to post by gwydionblack
 


Nah, fear is subjective, though not necessarily an enemy, "Aware" would be a better word.


Presidential Secrets

The link's set to start at the last ~20 minutes of an interview from back in the late 90's. The whole thing is pretty informative, but pretty boring and drawn out. The final 20 minutes IMO are the most relative and important.



posted on Apr, 23 2012 @ 10:00 AM
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Originally posted by Lord Jules
... getting sexually assaulted at the airport, and here we are burning money for firewood...


You mean having their CHILDREN sexually assaulted at the airports, right? That is a more appropriate observation ...

Concerning wars ... there was this bad bad man, called Osama Bin Laden, who allgedly hijacked several airplaines and killed some 4000 people.

The US responds, by going to war on several fronts ... killing over a hundred thousand people "officially", but over a million unofficially. Leaving thousands of children, mutilated and hundreds of children born deformed as a result.

Now, YOU tell me ... WHO is worse ?

Now, the next time you go out and say hi to your president ... say it properly with a proper "SIEG HEIL".

*ADDED*

And, WHAT is the US doing in Afghanistan? Is it fighting the Taliban? wasn't that exactly what the Soviet Union was doing?

So, tell me ... WHAT is the US and it's allies doing in Afghanistan? Osama Bin Laden is dead already ... are they out there killing "camel humpers"? Is that what the US calls "liberty" and "justice"?

Forgive me for asking stupid questions.

And, WHAT are the US allies doing in Afghanistan ... what is DENMARK doing there, or SWEDEN? Are they there, to get a piece of the action? Is this a hunt, and they are out there "KILLING" a few animals ... where the "buddies" want a "piece" of the action?

You tell me, WHO is more PATHETIC?
edit on 23/4/2012 by bjarneorn because: (no reason given)





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