U.S Military video shows goats being hacked apart in training exercies

Originally posted by FraternitasSaturni

Originally posted by EvanB
reply to post by RealSpoke

 

Never once on the battlefield have I wielded a sword and hewn the enemy limb from limb....

The guy on your avatar disagrees with you...

never knew that avatars where/are a reflection of the person behind said avatar.

my post will probably get censored.

but why don't you leave ATS and go back to being a coorporate tool?

people with attitudes like yours disgust me.

I used to be sadistic with animals, I won't elaborate.

Under life's circumstances, I got changed and now loved and respected EVERY living thing, sometimes even inanimate objects. I now would cry whenever I accidentally kill animal and end up praying for the animal I killed.

Change is inevitable. When I did, I would cry bitterly whenever I remembered my past, it was horrible, sometimes I'd be suicidal. I could feel their pain, even the pain of those who loved them.

You can't be indifferent to other forms of life, it will haunt you later on, life will never be the same, I guarantee that!

So yes, I brought this up in a thread awhile back and no one thought much of it. I have some friends in the military who spoke of the uses of goats and how some of them were put on "goat guard duty" at certain points of their training.

Regardless, apparently they do numerous things with these animals though it didn't quite sound as gruesome of the OP. Definitely used for medical training, taking apart and putting back together, and then I am told they were used on live fire ranges.

Disgusting and useless in my eyes.

I love animals, but I no problems whatsoever with this.

If it takes training like this to make sure the corpsman with me keeps his head while trying to save my legs or help me when my guts are laying in the sand so be it.

reply to post by muse7


This is indeed disturbing... but what I find even more disturbing are the people on here that will cry and moan about a goat being killed, but see nothing wrong with taking an innocent human baby out of the womb, sticking a pair of scissors in it's skull and throwing it in a trash can, or sucking a human fetus out of the womb with a vaccum cleaner.

Originally posted by muse7

Originally posted by FraternitasSaturni
I bet you can see pretty much the same at your local slaughter house, or check the way animals are treated before they end up in your dish.

Its not that I care that much, after all I still eat it, its just that this "holier than thou" attitude about some crap the military does when you have pretty much the same or worse just around the corner.

This military bashing is getting out of hand... just shut up. Here's a quote to anyone that just spits out crap about the army... just think about that before posting "anti-army" crap...

"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post."

Are you actually serious? Telling me to shut up huh?

This was not an "anti-army" thread, this thread was aimed to shed light on the use of live animals for military exercises that can easily be replaced by something much more humane.

And for your information, I've been a vegetarian for 10+ years, so don't try to inform me of what goes on at slaughter houses.

And lastly, man 1776 was a long time ago. I don't know of any group out there that is planning to invade the U.S. and take away our "freedom". All I hear is middle eastern people demanding for us to get the hell out of their countries.

hey leave Bill O'Reilly alone

reply to post by OptimusSubprime


Hardly the same.

Goats are useful livestock for milk, cheese, mohair, cashmere, meat, leather and labor.

Babies are useless feeders.

reply to post by muse7


Hmm can't find any info on the training exercise. I'm against cruelty to animals, but if this training was related to triage on the battlefield, sorry, humans trump goats. Besides, this is coming from PETA. PETA kills most of the animals it "saves".

now, if this was merely a shock and awe exercise, well, I don't find that appropriate, but if this was for medical training, yup, I support it. I'd rather have some dead goats than dead humans, but hey, that's just me.

where is the video???

Originally posted by OptimusSubprime
reply to post by muse7

 

This is indeed disturbing... but what I find even more disturbing are the people on here that will cry and moan about a goat being killed, but see nothing wrong with taking an innocent human baby out of the womb, sticking a pair of scissors in it's skull and throwing it in a trash can, or sucking a human fetus out of the womb with a vaccum cleaner.

There is a very interesting dynamic at work here with situational morality, isn't there? Some folks seem awfully selective, as you note, about just WHICH life is worthy of a few moments anger over. Amazing who wins and who loses on those scales. Perhaps that's why it's best to avoid that whole slope of trying to rate one innocent life as more valuable than another because one has fur and the other doesn't. You'd really think it'd work the other direction and see us favor our own species in the equation. Odd huh?

Where's the footage? Peta are terrorists and hypocrites anyways and I could care less what they think is wrong or right.

I grew up in the military and my father had to do this sort of thing in the Special Forces. He once bought a rooster that loved Wheel of Fortune and knew how to turn on the tv at the time it came on. We kept it at our house for a week then took it to work with him and released it for the other troops to catch and slaughter. Felt a bit bad for the little guy but damn was it funny watching about 16 guys chasing a chicken around the woods Rocky style. This was not the only instance that I was able to witness, just the funniest.

I surprised no one with SF or Ranger experience has chimmed in. Its well known that Ranger and SF medics need to keep a mutilated goat alive for a certian period of time to pass and get assigned to the Ranger Regiment or one of the SF groups. I didn't know the Coast Guard did it too, but the Military has been using goats to simulate injuries in thier medical training for DECADES. I'm fairly sure this kind of live training has saved the lives of many SF soldiers in the field and I'm also pretty sure the animals are NOT anesthetized to increase the realism of the training. PETA won't be able to to SQUAT about this.

BTW, they shouldn't be taking pleasure in the activity, it would seem to me that those in the video have been involved with these drills for too long.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


You're just arguing just to argue right now. You know that there is no training in cutting off animals limbs.

Anyone that can cut off a goats legs while alive is a psychopath, normal people have too much empathy to do such things.

reply to post by RealSpoke


Umm.. I'm reacting to the images the OP gave us to look at. You say there IS NO training that severs the limb of an animal and yet...right there...I see an image of the proper use of a tourniquet while wrapped around the fresh severed limb of what looks like a goat..maybe something bigger? The blood is bright red and wet though, so that wasn't a body they did it with...and I'm guessing the goats don't have industrial accidents to give the trainees a valid case to test those techniques.

As I said before though, I'm with people who say these are disturbing and really rough images. They are..and I'd also noted that I really can't see how I'd get through that. I just couldn't help remember it's a creature with a brain and self awareness being worked on...and a good outcome isn't the point of the exercise.

I just don't see better ways..and I'd imagine the military training commands have the same problem. The guys HAVE to learn....there are very few ways to teach it...and none of them are all that pretty to show on the evening news.

reply to post by muse7


I take it by your reaction that you have no idea what a PMC (Private Military Corporation ie. Blackwater/Xe) is. They mentioned in the article that it was Contractors that were training in this manner, and that basically means that it has nothing to do with the American Military. With that in mind I think that you need to realize that eviscerating goats is the least of your worries from these guys. Yes this is a barbaric way of treating animals, but think of WHY they are doing that instead of that they are doing it. To parrot the what without going into the why is about as useful as Paris Hilton in an eating contest.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Not really, they have machine mannequins that replicate exact blood loss, breathing, and whatever else.

med.stanford.edu...

A new simulation facility at the medical center will give medical residents, staff and students a first chance to experience surgery without the high stakes of a real operation.

Surgical residents will be among the first doctors to use the center. The new surgeons will get "a chance to have a 'do-over' because they can practice and rehearse not once, but several times until they are comfortable," said Sandra Feaster, the center's program director. "This is a chance for teams to train and to enhance their communication skills, with the goal of improved patient safety."

www.columbiamissourian.com...

Within a year of Hosokawa joining the MU Medical School, the use of animals in teaching had been phased out — a trend that mirrors what’s happening in schools across the country. According to the Chronicle of Higher Education, only a dozen of the nation’s 125 accredited medical schools still use live animals to teach skills in physiology, pharmacology and surgery.

Probably about time the military/contractors and anything remotely attached to the USA/any government phased it out

Sorry if I missed it but... where is the video? Did anyone here actually see it? The link provided did not have the video and I'm wondering if this is just some story made to incite anger, or if this actually happened.

Again, not saying it didn't happen, but all we are able to go off at this point is some sort of blog(?) post.

Well, I;ll say the new technology for simulators is promising and I also hope for a day that technology is SO advanced that the stress and sheer panicky action needed with a real wound spurting all over the place can be duplicated without a living being on the other end of the wound. That would be best for everyone...Indeed.

Until then. Well.. We;re talking about training the people you will see as the last hope you have with a wound that's killing you.or me...or someone we care about. Who knows where these guys go after the Service? Our whole Emergency Dept here is run and staffed largely by vets.

When the new ways will work, by all means, switch. Until it's 120% proven and accepted to produce the same quality and problem solving ability in a field medic...I'll just feel a little bad for the goats who died so I may live. What those goats died to teach a medic working on me will certainly never be forgotten if I'm the one benefiting from the knowledge their little sacrifice brought.


@ wWizard

Click on the word "Training" in the first paragraph of the OP link. It's a goofy way to have it set up, I know, but that seems to link out to the site with the real info. It's a slide show with still shots out of combat medic training by the look of it. The kind of high stress, high pressure type training I'd expect to see such methods used in...

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
Well, I;ll say the new technology for simulators is promising and I also hope for a day that technology is SO advanced that the stress and sheer panicky action needed with a real wound spurting all over the place can be duplicated without a living being on the other end of the wound. That would be best for everyone...Indeed.

Until then. Well.. We;re talking about training the people you will see as the last hope you have with a wound that's killing you.or me...or someone we care about. Who knows where these guys go after the Service? Our whole Emergency Dept here is run and staffed largely by vets.

When the new ways will work, by all means, switch. Until it's 120% proven and accepted to produce the same quality and problem solving ability in a field medic...I'll just feel a little bad for the goats who died so I may live. What those goats died to teach a medic working on me will certainly never be forgotten if I'm the one benefiting from the knowledge their little sacrifice brought.

Its funny you say this. I have quite an interesting story from last summer about a first aid course I went through in the military.
The instructors were all vets. They made our final training situation VERY stressful on us and it seemed very real. The funny thing is, we were bandaging up 180 pound mannequins. They tacked raw, rotting meat to the mannequins bodies and stood in your ear wailing as if they were in serious pain while you were frantically trying to administer first aid and get out of the fake crossfire. The training was done a parking lot and around a brick building with nothing but fake guns, raw meat, mannequins, first aid kits, and screaming instructors and it worked very well and improved EVERYONES understanding of a real life combat situation.

In short, no, using live animals is not necessary, and you don't need high tech equipment to train you in the containment of spilled guts. All you really need is skilled instructors who know what they are doing and adequate training materials and props to make it feel real.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


They do have trauma simulators. How do you think ER trauma specialists get trained without using animals before internship/residency with actual humans?