The pot calling the kettle black!

The other day I saw a op ed story on CNN about a Republican congressman Allen West as he provided a list of alleged current US congressman that he has labeled as Communist.

Here is a short snip-it of the story and the link to it.

New York (CNN) -- "I have here in my hand a list of 205 communists ..."
The ghost of Joe McCarthy's ulcerous accusations hung over a disturbingly casual comment this past week by U.S. Rep. Allen West, R-Florida.
When asked by a constituent at a town hall, "What percentage of the American legislature do you think are card-carrying Marxists?"
"That's a fair question," West replied. "I believe there's about 78 to 81 members of the Democratic Party that are members of the Communist Party."

Where's the outrage over....

I was surprised when this topic didn't become a huge discussion here on ATS or nationally. As far as the article is concerned I don't think it became a huge topic, is its become the norm for the Republican party to to call other people names and to question the patriotism of citizens, and I don't think they really hold much weight anymore. We are used to Palin talking about the Good Americans, or whole groups in the Republican party attacking other groups as socialist or any other label they wish to add this week. Or to have presidential candidates acting like only the far right or religious are the only groups in this country that has any rights, and somehow should be able to legislate there beliefs and dictate how everyone must live.

Reality is Do you think Republicans are the good Americans?

Is it pro American to limit the rights of minorities?

Is it pro American to limit voting rights?

Is it pro American to ignore law like the Republicans are doing in Michigan?

Is it pro American to pass laws like drug testing food stamp recipients while owning stock in the companies that are doing the testing? While campaigning for smaller less intrusive government?

Is it pro American for some of the more extreme red states to be focusing on abortion legislation instead of economic policy?

Is it pro American to support new laws like the laws passed by this congress elected in 2010?

Is it pro American for a political leaning supreme court ruling on issues directly based on party line and not the constitution? Is it cool with you that they can strip search you for not breaking laws? and its for your own protection?

Is it pro American to be anti illegal immigration when our founding fathers hailed from Briton, Germany, France, Dutch and many other countries?

Is it pro American to label all Latinos illegal?

Is it pro American to claim our religion is under attack while attacking other religions?

Is it pro American to legislate what American's do in there bedrooms?

Is it pro American to limit transparency in the election process?

Is it pro American to demonize liberals? Liberals are why this country rebelled from King George and Briton, Conservatives were labeled Tory's back then.

Is it pro American To twist government agencies designed to protect American lives and health for corporate gain? Like the FDA, EPA, among others.

Is is pro American? to be a Republican?

I could go on but its late and I have posted plenty for a great debate.

I'm personally sick of hearing republicans calling people unAmerican and in general I'm sick of them labeling Americans as people that aren't good enough to be here, or not good enough to participate in the democratic process. I'm sick of them acting like they know it all, when red states are way behind in roads and bridges, infrastructure, education, jobs, and salaries, and they are way ahead in crime, imprisonment, unemployment just to pop off a few.

Wow.... An Elected Official speaks about the serious possibility that a large number of our other elected officials are sincere ideological communists and the best your OP runs for in terms of discussion is how many ways to attack the side the man comes from who dares ask?

I would think it's important to ask if his allegation has any truth to it and if it does, then a national discussion is about due as to whether this poses a problem for America. Should it pose a problem? Communists were enemies many here directly fought and saw friends die in the battle against. Others of us saw what that fight did in our parents. Communists have absolutely never been representatives of an ideology that is compatible with the American sense of Government and values.

If that is changing then so be it. If a national debate on the matter makes it clear that a real majority are truly turning to that way of thinking...I guess I need to accept it. However, the debate is necessary and not just a blanket acceptance that communists are just dandy in running our nation. I happen to believe a fair and public debate will show quite the opposite for the majority of Americans today. I doubt the people this is talking about will EVER allow the matter to come to such an open debate though....losing is something communists never risk. Ever.

reply to post by LDragonFire


You started out asking and opening up the debate about Allen West but then degenerated into a list of slanted and biased views....

What exactly do you want to discuss here? What West said and if it is true or not -- or -- how your view of the "other" side of politics is a certain way? Figure we get this straight then a real discussion can take place. Otherwise all I see in this thread is a bait and switch troll-fest.

Just thought I'd er. . . . what is it called again?. . . . . oh yeah, facts!

Oh, my gosh, did you hear that Rep. Allen West claims there are seventy or eighty card-carrying members of the Communist Party serving as Democrats in Congress? The House Un-American Activities Committee must be re-opening for business!

That’s the headline you’ll see all over the left side of the blogosphere. And it’s got to be true, because they’ve got video!

The red scare, what we've all been discussing.

Except all of these video clips are very carefully edited to cut out the next thing West said. Here is the quote in full, with the omitted part presented in boldface:

Huh. . . what?

There's more?

It’s a good question. I believe there’s about 78 to 81 members of the Democrat Party who are members of the Communist Party. It’s called the Congressional Progressive Caucus.

Analysis

He is very clearly not saying he thinks there are eighty secret Commies working as moles in the Democrat Party. He’s insulting the Congressional Progressive Caucus by saying they’re functionally equivalent to the Communist Party. The Caucus has 76 members, so West guessed a bit high when he rattled the number off the top of his head.

iowntheworld.com...

From the other thread on the subject.

(Hope this clears up some misconceptions.)

Deny Ignorance.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
Wow.... An Elected Official speaks about the serious possibility that a large number of our other elected officials are sincere ideological communists and the best your OP runs for in terms of discussion is how many ways to attack the side the man comes from who dares ask?

that is such manure... Being left of center does not indicate a communist outlook,
last I checked a vast majority of Americans support Medicare, which is something
that a vast majority of Democrats support. Does that mean that the vast majority
of Americans are Communists? No it does not, so being liberal, does not mean
someone is a communist which is what the politician is indicating. Is a conservative
who supports Medicare also a communist?

You know this constant game of innuendo gets old and that is exactly what West and
you are engaging in. I lived through high school and you are specifically using high school
tactics to attack the character of your "rivals".

And for the record, this approach is not localized or rare, it is a systematic way conservatives
go about politicking. You feel good for calling someone a vile commie, but it truly and utterly
makes America a stupider place because discourse is perpetuated in the childish realm
of rumors, not facts and debate.

You are here defending what is exactly wrong with politics and the defending the most pathetic
and petty thing that humans have to offer. I am tired of you guys and I hope one day
society rejects this truly infantile tactic -

Originally posted by beezzer
Just thought I'd er. . . . what is it called again?. . . . . oh yeah, facts!

Oh, my gosh, did you hear that Rep. Allen West claims there are seventy or eighty card-carrying members of the Communist Party serving as Democrats in Congress? The House Un-American Activities Committee must be re-opening for business!

That’s the headline you’ll see all over the left side of the blogosphere. And it’s got to be true, because they’ve got video!

The red scare, what we've all been discussing.

Except all of these video clips are very carefully edited to cut out the next thing West said. Here is the quote in full, with the omitted part presented in boldface:

Huh. . . what?

There's more?

It’s a good question. I believe there’s about 78 to 81 members of the Democrat Party who are members of the Communist Party. It’s called the Congressional Progressive Caucus.

Analysis

He is very clearly not saying he thinks there are eighty secret Commies working as moles in the Democrat Party. He’s insulting the Congressional Progressive Caucus by saying they’re functionally equivalent to the Communist Party. The Caucus has 76 members, so West guessed a bit high when he rattled the number off the top of his head.

iowntheworld.com...

From the other thread on the subject.

(Hope this clears up some misconceptions.)

Deny Ignorance.

edit on 18-4-2012 by beezzer because: (no reason given)

Odd because watching the entire thing as it happens gives a very different impression than your outside observer reference point analysis of what someone else thinks. Nice try though.

Alan West says crazy and stupid things. That is his entire gimmick. Still waiting for anyone to clear up that whole thing about him having higher security clearance than the president of the united states. Maybe when he clears that up his credibility will skyrocket.

reply to post by LDragonFire



You are absolutely correct. However, when conservatives do it, I refer to it as the kettle (is all black) calling the pot (may have a little black on it) black. i.e. Conservatives are oftentimes very unpatriotic (denying equal rights to gays, African Americans, or the poor). At the same time, they are the first to point the unpatriotic finger at liberals for advocating things like universal healthcare or unemployment benefits which are not really that unpatriotic at all. Its like, when the pot points out to the kettle exactly how black it really is, the kettle says "yeah, well, when I turn you over and look at you in this certain light, I see something that looks black on you too."

This is just a typical tactic that you see conservatives pull all the time. Kind of like pretending to be "confused" by the point of your post when the only thing that confused them was how well you made it. In all reality it is not their fault. Can you imagine walking around all the time trying to reconcile the contradictory beliefs of smaller government and government sponsored drug testing and marriage regulation? I sure can't.

Originally posted by BluegrassRevolutionary
reply to post by LDragonFire

 

You are absolutely correct. However, when conservatives do it, I refer to it as the kettle (is all black) calling the pot (may have a little black on it) black. i.e. Conservatives are oftentimes very unpatriotic (denying equal rights to gays, African Americans, or the poor). At the same time, they are the first to point the unpatriotic finger at liberals for advocating things like universal healthcare or unemployment benefits which are not really that unpatriotic at all. Its like, when the pot points out to the kettle exactly how black it really is, the kettle says "yeah, well, when I turn you over and look at you in this certain light, I see something that looks black on you too."

This is just a typical tactic that you see conservatives pull all the time. Kind of like pretending to be "confused" by the point of your post when the only thing that confused them was how well you made it. In all reality it is not their fault. Can you imagine walking around all the time trying to reconcile the contradictory beliefs of smaller government and government sponsored drug testing and marriage regulation? I sure can't.

What's confusing is progressives posting bold-faced lies and trotting them out as if they are the truth.
(that's why we get confused)

Enjoy your ivory tower. You'll have until november.

reply to post by braindeadconservatives

You are here defending what is exactly wrong with politics and the defending the most pathetic and petty thing that humans have to offer. I am tired of you guys and I hope one day society rejects this truly infantile tactic

Okay, you do realize that I never once mentioned the Democratic Party as being related to or being linked with the Communist Party, right? I certainly never suggested that the left in general is communist. I grew up around plenty of people in Southern California who called themselves very hard left and hated communists as hard as any conservative. Right and Left are different sides of the *AMERICAN* political system and while I don't agree with the left, I sure don't begrudge them their right to pursue it. I just intend to help my end pursue our ideas with more people and more energy. Fair is Fair.

Communism is NOT American. It is NOT 'grass roots' or Democratic either in party or in spirit. It's flat out foreign and toxic to everything the American sense of freedom stands for..or at least USED to, if things truly have changed that much in such a short time.

20 years ago we had a standing military force capable of fighting a two front world war and the military didn't play games with words or terms. They were there to fight, stop and ultimately CRUSH the Communist forces of the Soviet Union and Communist China, if China decided to get into the fight. Only 20 years ago..that was the case and it was left and right together who saw the need.

So...Please, lets both keep ideology where it belongs and in American debates amongst Americans. Where it's about our internal politics and the internal functions of our nation, Communism in general simply has no place. Democracy should never have been pushed on Russia.....and they can KEEP their version of Government now.

I only have a minute, but wanted to respond to a few of these very quickly...

Originally posted by LDragonFire

Is it pro American to limit the rights of minorities?

Who did what and when?

Is it pro American to limit voting rights?

Wouldn't it be considered protecting voters rights, when identification is required to prevent just anyone from walking into a polling place, saying they are LDragonFrire and casting a vote?

Is it pro American for some of the more extreme red states to be focusing on abortion legislation instead of economic policy?

What "states" are doing this and how?

Is it pro American to support new laws like the laws passed by this congress elected in 2010?

What specific legislation are you talking about? You do realize Democrats control the Senate, don't you?

Is it pro American for a political leaning supreme court ruling on issues directly based on party line and not the constitution?

How did the Democrat appointed Justices vote?

Is it cool with you that they can strip search you for not breaking laws?

"They" can't...

Is it pro American to be anti illegal immigration when our founding fathers hailed from Briton, Germany, France, Dutch and many other countries?

Who knew there were immigration laws, when the "founding fathers" came here!!!

Besides...

Ben Franklin - born in Massachusetts
Thomas Jefferson - born in Virginia
George Washington - born in Virginia
John Adams - born in Massachusetts

Or, are you referring to different founding fathers?

Is it pro American to label all Latinos illegal?

Who did that? No one.

I could go on but its late and I have posted plenty for a great debate.

I think that statement is quite debatable...

I'm personally sick of hearing republicans calling people unAmerican...

Pot, meet kettle, His name is LDragonFire...


P.S. Would you mind pointing out "Dutch" for me on a map? Thanks

Originally posted by braindeadconservatives
...but it truly and utterly makes America a "stupider" place because discourse is perpetuated in the childish realm
of rumors, not facts and debate.

And, how exactly would you define that list of nonsense posted in the OP?

Click here for more information.

I love how know one has seriously attempted to respond to the list of questions.

One person did...and responded with all questions.

is this just another attempt to divide? and doesnt this kind of thing fly in the face of this?

15g.) Political Baiting: You will not engage in politically-charged rhetoric, politically-inspired name-calling, and related right-versus-left political bickering while Posting in any topical forum or discussion thread on the Websites. You will not alter political candidate names or party affiliations in order to insult or deride the opposition.

where did all the thought provoking, contributing members of 2 years ago disappear too?

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
I love how know one has seriously attempted to respond to the list of questions.

One person did...and responded with all questions.

How else should someone respond to questions like those offered by the OP? I guess I could have answered with "Yes, it is wrong to limit the rights of minorities." But, then I would be allowing myself to be baited into a conversation based on an entirely false premise, and would require that I accept that false premise and having some validity.

So, until the questioner can provide specific examples, rather than just making empty accusations, the only way to respond is with a question, in order to clarify the meaning of the original question.

In other words, if I posed the question "Is it wrong for OutKast Searcher to discriminate against minorities?" How would you respond?

reply to post by WTFover

In other words, if I posed the question "Is it wrong for OutKast Searcher to discriminate against minorities?" How would you respond?

I would answer by saying:

Yes, it is wrong and that is why I don't do it.


See...I don't even have to use another question to answer.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
I love how know one has seriously attempted to respond to the list of questions.

One person did...and responded with all questions.

That wasn't what the topic was about -- or is it? I asked the OP for clarification and explained why; still no answer!

Originally posted by WTFover
I only have a minute, but wanted to respond to a few of these very quickly...

Originally posted by LDragonFire

Is it pro American to limit the rights of minorities?

Who did what and when?

Is it pro American to limit voting rights?

Wouldn't it be considered protecting voters rights, when identification is required to prevent just anyone from walking into a polling place, saying they are LDragonFrire and casting a vote?

The state of Wisconsin under the leadership of Gov. Walker has indeed passed laws requiring ID to vote, then they started closing down DMV offices in poor/Democratic areas. Does this not suppress voter rights?

Is it pro American for some of the more extreme red states to be focusing on abortion legislation instead of economic policy?

What "states" are doing this and how?[/Quote]

Mississippi the poorest stat in the US just passed legislation concerning abortion, there government did nothing about there terrible roads, education, poverty or crime.

Is it pro American to support new laws like the laws passed by this congress elected in 2010?

What specific legislation are you talking about? You do realize Democrats control the Senate, don't you?

Its easier to attack republicans on this front, the ncaa that is now law was voted for by almost 100% of republican lawmakers and only 50% of democrats supported it, then Obama signed it into law. The recent budget passed by the republican house that took out nursing home benefits was passed then rejected by democrats... If you want to take things father back lets remember the patriot act was brought to you by a republican president and a republican controlled congress... not that dems haven't supported it and extended it as well, but there has been far more support by republicans than dems.

Lets not forget the obstructionist congress who would rather see the US destroyed if it make Obama look bad...

Is it pro American for a political leaning supreme court ruling on issues directly based on party line and not the constitution?

How did the Democrat appointed Justices vote?

Have you read there opinions based on the individual cases? Its enlightening.

Is it cool with you that they can strip search you for not breaking laws?

"They" can't...
Yes they did, twice the case before the supreme court was based on a man who had paid his fine but was arrested twice and stripped search even though the authorities knew he had paid his fine....

Is it pro American to be anti illegal immigration when our founding fathers hailed from Briton, Germany, France, Dutch and many other countries?

Who knew there were immigration laws, when the "founding fathers" came here!!!

Besides...

Ben Franklin - born in Massachusetts
Thomas Jefferson - born in Virginia
George Washington - born in Virginia
John Adams - born in Massachusetts

Or, are you referring to different founding fathers?

Did the USA exist when these men were born? The men listed were born in a British Colony. Alexander Hamilton was born in the Caribbean. All of the founding fathers families were immigrants to North America.

Is it pro American to label all Latinos illegal?

Who did that? No one.

Arizona's laws require citizens to show proof of citizenship??? Until struck down by the courts. They are controlled by republicans so they also have the voter id laws...

I could go on but its late and I have posted plenty for a great debate.

I think that statement is quite debatable...

You didn't add everything i listed, I wonder why????

I'm personally sick of hearing republicans calling people unAmerican...

Pot, meet kettle, His name is LDragonFire...

Have I called republicans bad names? or question them, and by questioning them does that make me a bad American?

P.S. Would you mind pointing out "Dutch" for me on a map? Thanks

edit on 18-4-2012 by WTFover because: Last line

Learn your history before posting... Dutch Immigration

Since the OP doesn't really want to discuss Allen West's comments but rather his laundry list below, I will have a go at it.

Originally posted by LDragonFire
Reality is Do you think Republicans are the good Americans?

Why place a division here? There are American's that subscribe to all walks of political ideology that are "good Americans" and there are some that ascribe to their own views that are not exactly mainstream, yet are still "good Americans".

There are those on both sides of the aisle that disparage the "other" side as not being "good Americans".

Is it pro American to limit the rights of minorities?

First, who is limiting the rights of minorities? This question is vague. You will see a common theme from me and it is: Both sides engage in carving out exceptions for different groups based on political jockeying to obtain the most votes. This isn't a pro/con American issue. It is an issue of poor statesmanship from all sides of the political spectrum.

Is it pro American to limit voting rights?

Who's rights were limited and in what manner? I know you pointed out Voter ID laws and the thinly connected closure of DMV offices, but is it an actual connection or one that one side can use to push their own political quest of power?

Is it pro American to ignore law like the Republicans are doing in Michigan?

What laws are ignored? You don't need to be Republican or Democrat to ignore law. They both do it and we sit and point fingers at each others ideology.

Is it pro American to pass laws like drug testing food stamp recipients while owning stock in the companies that are doing the testing? While campaigning for smaller less intrusive government?

If a state wants to pass such a law, it should be done prudently and transparently, to this I will agree. But how is this connected to the desire of less intrusive government? The argument could be made that because a person resides on the State's dole, that they are subject to certain limitations.

Is it pro American for some of the more extreme red states to be focusing on abortion legislation instead of economic policy?

If it is what the State wants to accomplish, then so be it. Why are you worried (presumably you are not from Mississippi) about what that State is doing. If the People of that State desire their legislature to focus on that, then they will support it. Otherwise, they should push to remove those people from power.

Is it pro American to support new laws like the laws passed by this congress elected in 2010?

Such as?!

Is it pro American for a political leaning supreme court ruling on issues directly based on party line and not the constitution? Is it cool with you that they can strip search you for not breaking laws? and its for your own protection?

Can you, in the Opinion of the Court, show me where they followed party lines? In the case of "strip-searching", the Court recognized that carving out an exception would be impossible. The petitioner in that case aimed it at the correctional officers who were applying sound judgement and procedure. His case should have been aimed at the Municipality for failing to clear his warrants, which led to the situation he endured.

It should also be noted that the Justices in that case were explicit in not making this decision precedent and are willing to re-examine it in the future.

Is it pro American to be anti illegal immigration when our founding fathers hailed from Briton, Germany, France, Dutch and many other countries?

Immigration and referring to the colonist (and by extension the Founding Fathers) have no real connection. Most speak about today's problems with our current immigration laws. Many just want to see sound law applied and not political pandering. There are crazies on both sides of this issue.

Is it pro American to legislate what American's do in there bedrooms?

No and both sides engage in this. It is politics of control.

Is it pro American to limit transparency in the election process?

No and what specifically are you referring to here? Some laws such as Voter ID laws are trying to bring a transparent layer (some are better than others I admit) to the process.

Is it pro American to demonize liberals?

This occurs from all angles. Trying to slant it as only a "republican" or "democrat" issue shows that you are only viewing the political battlefield through a very narrow prism.

Is it pro American To twist government agencies designed to protect American lives and health for corporate gain? Like the FDA, EPA, among others.

Such as?

you seem like an ethical poster and i appreciate the content of your post; that being said you know none of those things are right in the sense of the word "right". the word communist has been demonized in america and both parties want to institute aspects of communism as a government function and americas functions at a macro and micro level seem to be an intended social commune. there are so many laws in place that limit the ability of capitalism to function; a democratic led reform of health or a republican led bail out of banks and business can be perceived as limiting the functions of capitalism.

in america if you are wealthy that does not mean you are a capitalist; capitalism is your vehicle.
in america if you say i need a hand out of this situation, can you help me neighbor; that does not make you a communist; the commune of which you are a part is the only means of your assistance.