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Obama's 'Green Collar' Jobs Have Been a Bust

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posted on Apr, 17 2012 @ 10:55 AM
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Originally posted by jjf3rd77

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
I would love to hear from a conservative here on ATS as to why they think the Oil Industry that is making record profits deserves government subsidies still???


Well, for one thing Oil companies are transitioning or at least claiming they are transitioning to "greener solutions" for whatever they do/invest in. Oil companies and technology companies invest the most in so-called green technology. Which makes logical sense does it not? So most of the subsidies you are talking about are going to oil companies because well they are energy companies and have the money to invest in these projects. Name me a green startup that has done relatively well in the past few years?

Some of us want no subsides for any companies! IMHO


"Green" is nothing but a PR gag for those oil companies, check out the revenue split to realize why that is. And as has been said in this thread before, green can't be successful at the moment because the marketplace is RIGGED in favor of the oil industry. They can offer energy at a much lower price because of subsidies, while all those green energies get subsidized MUCH less.

If you're a conservative you should be outraged at this corporate welfare and skewing of the "free market". But instead you fall for pointless political catch phrases and go ballistic whenever you hear "green", like a trained dog who starts to salivate whenever his master presents a dog cookie. Look at the FACTS for crying out loud and you will realize the true reason why "green" can't compete with oil




posted on Apr, 17 2012 @ 11:16 AM
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reply to post by MrXYZ
 


Oh, and to those claiming taking away those subsidies would lead to higher oil prices....no they wouldn't. Subsidies have been there for years, yet oil continues to get more expensive. It's a CARTEL for crying out loud!!!

If you took those subsidies away, competition would increase and the market place would be "fair". More competition ALWAYS leads to lower prices.

I really don't get it. This is the one point the left and right should easily agree, albeit for different reasons. The left is obviously not a massive fan of the oil industry because of pollution, but even if you don't care about that, the right should still be outraged at the amount of corporate welfare and price fixing that's going on. I always thought you were fans of the "free market"...after all, your politicians loooooove to throw around that word during speeches


Are you telling us corporate welfare is ok, but when it comes to real people it isn't? Is that really your position? Bit hypocritical, don't you think?



posted on Apr, 17 2012 @ 11:23 AM
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Originally posted by MrXYZ

If you're a conservative you should be outraged at this corporate welfare and skewing of the "free market". But instead you fall for pointless political catch phrases and go ballistic whenever you hear "green", like a trained dog who starts to salivate whenever his master presents a dog cookie. Look at the FACTS for crying out loud and you will realize the true reason why "green" can't compete with oil


Did it ever occur to you that Green technology (can you define that please) is nothing practical at the moment because the technology does not work? Despite what many conspiracy theorists on here believe (HARRP) we do not have the technology to change the weather and hence the climate!

But I see that you have not looked at the facts I have presented and continued on with your name calling. The key to debating is when someone reverts to name calling, they have run out of facts to counter the other side. And your remarks were quite graphic/insulting.

Do you have any sources to back up your claims?

Google invests the most in green energy along with GE and BP. All the current oil/energy companies and technology companies do this. And they have time and time again failed. Tell me where is the big break through in solar panels? Wind? Water? I would love to power my stuff with this energy, but it is just not plausible at this point in time, and no politician can make an industry appear out of nowhere.

Another thing liberals always seem to avoid talking about is what happens when the alternative energy industry gets bigger than oil? Which is what is happening now.
edit on 17-4-2012 by jjf3rd77 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 17 2012 @ 11:28 AM
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reply to post by jjf3rd77
 


The technology works just fine. I personally witnessed several hotels implementing such measures and they WORK. In fact, I had to take this into consideration when selling those hotels.

The problem is, right now green technology produces green energy at $XX per Kj...while the oil industry (thanks to subsidies) can offer it for cheaper. THAT'S the only reason green is currently failing, because of a manipulated market place, and that's a FACT.

The only other reason why green technologies are currently not as profitable as they should is because of longer loan payback times due those higher prices, and the fact that getting loans (they're an investment) is currently difficult. And that's the case because of reckless deregulation allowing the financial industry to screw everyone over...the financial industry, another industry who completely bought the US government.
edit on 17-4-2012 by MrXYZ because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 17 2012 @ 11:31 AM
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Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by jjf3rd77
 


The technology works just fine. I personally witnessed several hotels implementing such measures and they WORK. In fact, I had to take this into consideration when selling those hotels.

The problem is, right now green technology produces green energy at $XX per Kj...while the oil industry (thanks to subsidies) can offer it for cheaper. THAT'S the only reason green is currently failing, because of a manipulated market place, and that's a FACT.
edit on 17-4-2012 by MrXYZ because: (no reason given)


You are clearly not a business person! Of course they get greater return on oil than whatever can be considered green. Oil is an established market. Green is NOT even a market. It's just a bunch of policies and random technology which is considered green under those policies. Oil is a commodity that has been privatized. You cannot do that with carbon, wind, and nuclear power...You can hardly even do that with water.



posted on Apr, 17 2012 @ 11:33 AM
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Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by jjf3rd77
 


The technology works just fine. I personally witnessed several hotels implementing such measures and they WORK. In fact, I had to take this into consideration when selling those hotels.


What technology are you talking about? Because stuff like cloud seeding programs or wind farms will never be as efficient as oil. Sorry to burst your bubble. I'm not saying that some "green" technologies don't work, but a lot more of them fail. And those were hyped up to world saving ideas and solutions...



posted on Apr, 17 2012 @ 11:35 AM
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So rather OIL is the epitome of capitalism and the free market and the far left, liberals, and democrats HATE that. Why else would they be trying so hard to make their own based on carbon?
edit on 17-4-2012 by jjf3rd77 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 17 2012 @ 11:38 AM
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Originally posted by snusfanatic
reply to post by xuenchen
 


Obama has no faith in markets. He thinks he can just will an industry into existence absent any demand.



That is looking upon it charitably and assuming that he is a cretin - personally I think he knows exactly what he is doing - RUINING THE COUNTRY!!!!



posted on Apr, 17 2012 @ 11:55 AM
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reply to post by MrXYZ
 





green can't be successful at the moment because the marketplace is RIGGED in favor of the oil industry. They can offer energy at a much lower price because of subsidies, while all those green energies get subsidized MUCH less.


As you well know mr xyz - The only oil company the US subsidises is Petrobas to exploit oil in Brazillian waters and heavily owned by the man who put Barry into power - George Sorros.

What the left hysterically keeps claiming are subsidies are just the normal tax braks that all industry get - and the total amount 'not collected' would fund US gov spending for a grand total of...................................10 hrs!!!


This is all NWO - price American manufacturing out of the global marketplace tactics, ensure that it stays dependent on foreign oil (and goodwill) - Barry need to build up a momentum of hate for 'big oil' and 'evil frackers' - so he can raise the taxes and regulations even further - before his whole green energy boondoggle collapses on him (just like it ruined Spain).



posted on Apr, 17 2012 @ 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by jjf3rd77

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by jjf3rd77
 


The technology works just fine. I personally witnessed several hotels implementing such measures and they WORK. In fact, I had to take this into consideration when selling those hotels.

The problem is, right now green technology produces green energy at $XX per Kj...while the oil industry (thanks to subsidies) can offer it for cheaper. THAT'S the only reason green is currently failing, because of a manipulated market place, and that's a FACT.
edit on 17-4-2012 by MrXYZ because: (no reason given)


You are clearly not a business person! Of course they get greater return on oil than whatever can be considered green. Oil is an established market. Green is NOT even a market. It's just a bunch of policies and random technology which is considered green under those policies. Oil is a commodity that has been privatized. You cannot do that with carbon, wind, and nuclear power...You can hardly even do that with water.


Yeah, I'm clearly not a business person and you know that from a couple of posts


FYI, my RL job is selling hotels for one of the top 5 brokerage companies. I've sold hotels (and hotel portfolios) worth more than what you probably make in your entire lifetime


But whatever, believe whatever makes you happy...

Back on topic:

Green technologies work and are actively applied. Before the crisis more so than now because they're investments rather than a consumable like oil. That means they require loans, something that is VERY hard to get during an economic crisis...that's why revenues of solar companies for example went down during this current crisis. You can buy energy like oil as you need it, whereas green technologies require an investment..simple as that.

Now, in a free market, green technologies could produce energy at a price that's highly competitive with oil. In reality however, they simply can't. Why? Because even though thanks to technological advances the price of 1Kj of green energy would be very similar to the price oil companies ask for, oil companies get the added benefit of having their costs cut even further thanks to subsidies. So they can increase their bottom line while green technologies can't.

In short:

1) Green technologies require an investment, which means they require a loan...hard to come by these days.
2) The market place for energy prices would have to be transparent and free...clearly it isn't if one type of energy gets the bulk of all subsidies.

By the way, I can name a couple of examples of companies that switched over to green energy when it was still easy to get loans...they're making a very healthy profit out of it now, but only because they were able to get a loan before # hit the fan. This hotel in Hawaii is a great example: LINK
edit on 17-4-2012 by MrXYZ because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 17 2012 @ 12:16 PM
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reply to post by JohhnyBGood
 





As you well know mr xyz - The only oil company the US subsidises is Petrobas to exploit oil in Brazillian waters and heavily owned by the man who put Barry into power - George Sorros.


Yeah, let's just pretend tax breaks aren't hidden subsidies



posted on Apr, 17 2012 @ 12:17 PM
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reply to post by jjf3rd77
 





So rather OIL is the epitome of capitalism and the free market


And you're calling me clueless when it comes to economics? Oh the irony


Oil is NOT A FREE MARKET!!!



posted on Apr, 17 2012 @ 12:37 PM
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Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by jjf3rd77
 





So rather OIL is the epitome of capitalism and the free market


And you're calling me clueless when it comes to economics? Oh the irony


Oil is NOT A FREE MARKET!!!



What is your definition of free market?

OPEC DOES NOT control the oil market despite what many conspiracy theorists and liberals believe. I see you refuse to answer any of my questions tho. If we are to move onto the green industry as a main way of getting our energy it will be NOT be a free market. Do you really want that? Do you really want the gov't to tell you how much energy you can use?



posted on Apr, 17 2012 @ 12:51 PM
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Originally posted by jjf3rd77

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by jjf3rd77
 





So rather OIL is the epitome of capitalism and the free market


And you're calling me clueless when it comes to economics? Oh the irony


Oil is NOT A FREE MARKET!!!



What is your definition of free market?

OPEC DOES NOT control the oil market despite what many conspiracy theorists and liberals believe. I see you refuse to answer any of my questions tho. If we are to move onto the green industry as a main way of getting our energy it will be NOT be a free market. Do you really want that? Do you really want the gov't to tell you how much energy you can use?


Have you ever opened an economics book???




As of November 2010, OPEC members collectively hold 79% of world crude oil reserves and 44% of the world’s crude oil production, affording them considerable control over the global market.


I'll link it again because clearly you haven't bothered reading up about OPEC. And no, it's NOT a free market by any stretch of the imagination, not even close


LINK



posted on Apr, 17 2012 @ 01:00 PM
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Originally posted by MrXYZ

Have you ever opened an economics book???



Ah, more insults. Just because you sell hotels doesn't mean you know anything about the energy industry. Just because your hotel says it uses green energy doesn't mean it does! Oh and btw what is this mysterious green energy or green jobs that you speak of? Because to me, they sound like TECHNOLOGY JOBS and ENGINEERING JOBS!!! Yours is a sales job! Even better!

I have a degree in computers and can easily make you those nifty scare tactic charts that the IPCC uses on all of their reports despite questionable and faulty data. I ask again, do you really think the green industry (define this please) is really more free than the oil industry?

You have got to be kidding me!



posted on Apr, 17 2012 @ 01:05 PM
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FACT. There is no national definition for Green Job or Green Industry.



posted on Apr, 17 2012 @ 01:14 PM
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Originally posted by jjf3rd77
So rather OIL is the epitome of capitalism and the free market and the far left, liberals, and democrats HATE that. Why else would they be trying so hard to make their own based on carbon?
edit on 17-4-2012 by jjf3rd77 because: (no reason given)


Are you saying the oil industry which is know for price controlling cartels is the epitome of capitalism? The epitome of capitalism would be a competitive market where every company competes against other companies for customers based on price and quality of their product. The existence of cartels where multiple companies agree on a price and product production goes against the very ideal of free market capitalism.



posted on Apr, 17 2012 @ 01:14 PM
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Originally posted by jjf3rd77

Originally posted by MrXYZ

Have you ever opened an economics book???



Ah, more insults. Just because you sell hotels doesn't mean you know anything about the energy industry. Just because your hotel says it uses green energy doesn't mean it does! Oh and btw what is this mysterious green energy or green jobs that you speak of? Because to me, they sound like TECHNOLOGY JOBS and ENGINEERING JOBS!!! Yours is a sales job! Even better!

I have a degree in computers and can easily make you those nifty scare tactic charts that the IPCC uses on all of their reports despite questionable and faulty data. I ask again, do you really think the green industry (define this please) is really more free than the oil industry?

You have got to be kidding me!


Who cares about labels, all that matters is jobs...and giving one industry an unfair advantage through subsidies costs the other industry (aka green technologies) jobs!! Oh, and that's a FACT.

And I wasn't insulting you...just questioning your knowledge. Because for someone who just a few posts ago questioned someone else's credentials, you don't seem to know all that much



posted on Apr, 17 2012 @ 04:24 PM
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Originally posted by jjf3rd77

Did it ever occur to you that Green technology (can you define that please) is nothing practical at the moment because the technology does not work?


Tell that to the Chinese...but I am sure they are just Liberal hippies...right?



The green economy in China is expected to produce millions of jobs in the country over the coming years, a new report states.

According to the study by the Worldwatch Institute, the nation has "huge potential" for employment growth, although the number of positions in the sector is hard to calculate because of the inconsistencies of existing methodologies.


Here's the GOPs plan...make as much money off of oil as they can until the inevitable tide of renewable energy takes over the world. Of course by then, China and India will be light years ahead of us, and the USA will be at thier mercy buying technology and energy to survive....but who cares...as long as the Oil Industry gets paid before China owns us.


China leads world in green energy investment
Global investment in renewable energy jumped 32% in 2010 to a record $211bn (£130bn; 149bn euros), according to the Global Trends in Renewable Energy Investment 2011 report.

www.bbc.co.uk...

The country that would like to lock up and torture the Dhali Lhama if they could DOES NOT do anything because it is the right thing or simply because it is Good for the earth!

Get it yet? They know which way the world is going, as does most of the world absent the efen "culture wars" we have here in the West. To China...it is not Politics....it is not idealogy...it is not "save the planet"...it is MONEY AND POWER....

Why is China rushing to corner the Green Market? Cuz that is the way the world is going....but a better question is, WHY is the USA, the most innovative country on the planet, NOT giving them a run for thier money??? Why are we sitting it out while China positions themselves to DOMINATE the worlds energy future???

Because the money that pays the GOP, the money that funds science denial, the money that funds "reports" kicking our own Green Technology efforts all comes from the same deep greedy pockets....and they want MORE MONEY, even if it costs this country it's future, EVEN IF it means we will go from being slaves to the Middle-East to being slaves to CHINA.



posted on Apr, 17 2012 @ 04:31 PM
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we are competing with companies backed by governments that fully subsidize them, which is against international agreements

so blame obama



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