What is Right and Wrong?

I was laying in bed last night, and a thought came to my head. What has formed civiizations opinions or moral structure?

Personally, I have Christian faith, so that has created my alignment to a standard of living.

However, if you are one of agnostic or atheist belief structure, what has determined how you live your life? Has the surrounding media made you, you? Has it been influence of your cultural upbringing and ancestiral heirachy?

C.S. Lewis, of the "Narnia" fame, had outlined in "Mere Christianity" that all moral stucture (moral law) was inbred into human capacity, and that we had to kill off any form of concience or be brought into a style of thinking which was contrary to inner knowlegde in order to commit crimes to humanity and to self.

Does this make sense to you? Or do you have alternate theories as to why we have Right and Wrong and why those without a "faith" (even some within a faith stucture) have so many shades of gray?

Originally posted by IronArm
I was laying in bed last night, and a thought came to my head. What has formed civiizations opinions or moral structure?

Personally, I have Christian faith, so that has created my alignment to a standard of living.

However, if you are one of agnostic or atheist belief structure, what has determined how you live your life? Has the surrounding media made you, you? Has it been influence of your cultural upbringing and ancestiral heirachy?

C.S. Lewis, of the "Narnia" fame, had outlined in "Mere Christianity" that all moral stucture (moral law) was inbred into human capacity, and that we had to kill off any form of concience or be brought into a style of thinking which was contrary to inner knowlegde in order to commit crimes to humanity and to self.

Does this make sense to you? Or do you have alternate theories as to why we have Right and Wrong and why those without a "faith" (even some within a faith stucture) have so many shades of gray?

In Mayan times, human sacrifice was perfectly alright. Right and wrong are relative and get defined on an individual basis. There is no absolute right or wrong.

In my opinion, all is good. I have the mental freedom to see it this way and I do, despite what may take place. Calling something bad is to say your God isn't perfect. How can a perfect creator make an imperfect creation? So to call things bad, or "evil" is disrespect to the creator. And that's where Satan comes in. Satan is that which opposes God. Satan gave us the knowledge of differentiation between good and evil. Satan is a mental condition causing us to see things as evil, when really they aren't necessarily. Do you see? By you calling anything evil, you are doing exactly what Satan wants you to do. Satan wants you to differentiate- to judge. You don't have to though. You could, instead, accept all. Accepting all is like a pat on the back to the creator saying, "Good job God." Imagine what else could be created for you if the creator thought you were pleased with what is. By saying, "This is bad", you are serving a Satanic agenda. Don't you see?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

First of all, good thread.
Right and wrong has nothing to do with religion but with each individual. A lot of religious people do wrong, a lot of atheists do wrong but no god has any do in this.
I do not believe in god, whatever that makes me. I have a very strong sense of justice. However I do not think that what I find right is agreed with others and vice versa.
For example, I rank animals the same as humans. I don't see why we should be more special just because we have decided we are. I give to animal charities. This makes me do things different from those that believe that humans are somehow a pinnacle of something, when in reality I can see no evidence.
I know what the OP means though. What made you believe what you are doing is right?

Well, when I am not sure, I go by "what would nature do"? Nature is a great role model. To some it seems harsh but really it is doing nothing, it just is and everything works out fine. I also seem to be harsh sometimes [for example when I had a molar pregnancy, the fetus had to be aborted at 4month, but I have never been upset by this because I trusted nature to do the right thing. There was obviously something wrong and hence it didn't happen]. I can see, hear and feel nature, it has millions of years of track record and I like what I see. It works. It is therefore I can't go by rules given by a man made religion, which is only a couple of thousand years old and frankly has done nothing to impress.
So I think we all need a "rolemodel" of some sort. Be it a god, a family member, nature or whatever floats your boat and when we don't know how to behave, we wonder "what would x do?". I think that is how each individual decides what is right or wrong.

There is no universal answer that can be fully accepted as its based off of the observers perception of what is Right and Wrong.

Originally posted by IronArm
I was laying in bed last night, and a thought came to my head. What has formed civiizations opinions or moral structure?

Personally, I have Christian faith, so that has created my alignment to a standard of living.

However, if you are one of agnostic or atheist belief structure, what has determined how you live your life? Has the surrounding media made you, you? Has it been influence of your cultural upbringing and ancestiral heirachy?

C.S. Lewis, of the "Narnia" fame, had outlined in "Mere Christianity" that all moral stucture (moral law) was inbred into human capacity, and that we had to kill off any form of concience or be brought into a style of thinking which was contrary to inner knowlegde in order to commit crimes to humanity and to self.

Does this make sense to you? Or do you have alternate theories as to why we have Right and Wrong and why those without a "faith" (even some within a faith stucture) have so many shades of gray?

First off all know through conscience what is right and wrong.

For the shades of gray ( which I do not except, either it is right or wrong) a few step into it and then others follow, not caring that God whose name is Jesus will judge them in the end for their transgressions. Yet once enough are crossing the line of right and wrong many others who would not normally do wrong justify their actions on the old saying everyone else is doing it, and then add the times change adage to help their conscience along the path of destruction.

No man could ever be truly good with out God in his life. I am not saying those who do not believe in God do not do some good acts but they justify their "gray area acts" like stealing from the company they work at because they do not pay me well enough or I gave some guy on the street 5 buck.

No one with out God can be truly just to others as we pick and chose who we will help, this is across the board on belief. We will help one person because it seems in vogue and not another because the are dirty and smell.

Right and wrong are absolute only man's lust for sin defines right and wrong.
Either murder is wrong all the time or it is not, why can you justify it as right because the Mayans were doing it, or Hitler was doing it or Stalin, Pol Pot ect ect

No for me Right and Wrong are not a product of time, they are the very principles the Jesus gave us.

For Christians-

Don't you see that by calling things "bad" or "evil", you are serving a Satanic agenda that you don't have to serve? Remember, it was Satan that came in the garden bringing the knowledge of differentiation between good and evil. See? Satan wants you to see evil, but you don't have to. Judging is a slap in the face to the creator. You are basically saying, "God, you're not good at what you do."

reply to post by IronArm


One of the things that bothered me about "Mere Christianity," was that Lewis posited that morality stems from belief in Christ; that he gives you the moral compass needed to be a good person.

But, Christianity and the Bible justify acts such as slavery, mistreatment (submission) of women, genocide, among other weird and deplorable behaviors. I'm guessing you have a Bible and have some knowledge of what's in it, so I'm not going to start listing verses, though I can if necessary.

Continuing, there is a simple metric by which to judge yourself and what is right and wrong. Simply ask yourself, "Is what I'm doing service to myself or service to others?" If you live your life in service to others, the "right path" will manifest itself in front of you.

We don't need a book that was conscripted by an atheist emperor (Constantine) to tell us what's right and wrong.

S+F anyway for good discussion prompt and the fact that you're asking and not necessarily assuming.

Originally posted by ACTS 2:38

First off all know through conscience what is right and wrong.

For the shades of gray ( which I do not except, either it is right or wrong) a few step into it and then others follow, not caring that God whose name is Jesus will judge them in the end for their transgressions. Yet once enough are crossing the line of right and wrong many others who would not normally do wrong justify their actions on the old saying everyone else is doing it, and then add the times change adage to help their conscience along the path of destruction.

No man could ever be truly good with out God in his life. I am not saying those who do not believe in God do not do some good acts but they justify their "gray area acts" like stealing from the company they work at because they do not pay me well enough or I gave some guy on the street 5 buck.

No one with out God can be truly just to others as we pick and chose who we will help, this is across the board on belief. We will help one person because it seems in vogue and not another because the are dirty and smell.

Right and wrong are absolute only man's lust for sin defines right and wrong.
Either murder is wrong all the time or it is not, why can you justify it as right because the Mayans were doing it, or Hitler was doing it or Stalin, Pol Pot ect ect

No for me Right and Wrong are not a product of time, they are the very principles the Jesus gave us.

You claim that no one can truly be good without god, but I believe that since god doesn't exist, good and evil are subjective terms which vary depending on your cultural and/or social upbringing. It's not something that any god gave us, but rather something that we've developed over time based on the standards of our society.

For some reason you seem to believe that those who deny the existence of your god are inherently evil, yet many of us promote love, harmony and acceptance, actively give to charity, and are considered honorable role models in our society. Likewise, the prison system is filled with people who profess to follow god, yet commit crimes against others, promote hate and intolerance, and only care about themselves.

I'm not good because I fear god, I'm good because over the course of my life I've come to understand, and embrace, the principles that are generally considered to be good or acceptable.

I believe that morality has been affected greatly in the last few decades, and not by personal choices, but rather by the choices that are put in front of us.

For instance, and I know this with rustle feathers, but take a glance at homosexuality. In the 50's, this was a lifestyle looked down upon....as well as many years beforehand, save the Roman empire (ex). Now, this sort of life is not only condoned, but made as a deliberate "in your face" ideology in which we are basically told as a "sin" (As determined by the Christian/Catholic/Monotheistic) is no longer wrong, but in fact a more advantageous.

Has this happened as global culture has intertwined and lost identity? Has there been a general change in our inner desires?

This, as an example makes me think that we do have a basic system, but it becomes greatly modified by the socital structure we live in, therefore giving us no right or wrong, but rather a "if its not that bad for you or others, go hard."

reply to post by ~Vixen~


I believe everyone believes in God and some just don't know that what they believe in is God. But not everyone believes in the Christian God, but even the ones that believe in the Christian God believe in the God that atheists believe in. Its just no one has came to a consensus on what God is so even atheists believe in God, they just don't know it.

What I'm saying is, the Christian conceptualization of what God is is usually always a misinterpretation, but the atheist view of what the universe is is usually closer to the actual God.

Originally posted by ltdan08
reply to post by IronArm

 

One of the things that bothered me about "Mere Christianity," was that Lewis posited that morality stems from belief in Christ; that he gives you the moral compass needed to be a good person.

But, Christianity and the Bible justify acts such as slavery, mistreatment (submission) of women, genocide, among other weird and deplorable behaviors. I'm guessing you have a Bible and have some knowledge of what's in it, so I'm not going to start listing verses, though I can if necessary.

Continuing, there is a simple metric by which to judge yourself and what is right and wrong. Simply ask yourself, "Is what I'm doing service to myself or service to others?" If you live your life in service to others, the "right path" will manifest itself in front of you.

We don't need a book that was conscripted by an atheist emperor (Constantine) to tell us what's right and wrong.

S+F anyway for good discussion prompt and the fact that you're asking and not necessarily assuming.

edit on 16-4-2012 by ltdan08 because: I guess I'll flag this...

I won't deny you in those statements, as they are true, allbeit in Christian doctrine (Not based on the Old Testament, as Judasim was) Those things are no longer permissed. That in and of itself is a long rabbit trail rife with theology.

The contestation I would like to bring up (playing devils advocate if you will) is a Machavillian (sp?) mentality.

The general good may be acheived, but then lies the task of stepping over all that are in the way. Is there a quantification as to how many people can be harmed for whom to survive and thrive?

Originally posted by smithjustinb
For Christians-

Don't you see that by calling things "bad" or "evil", you are serving a Satanic agenda that you don't have to serve? Remember, it was Satan that came in the garden bringing the knowledge of differentiation between good and evil. See? Satan wants you to see evil, but you don't have to. Judging is a slap in the face to the creator. You are basically saying, "God, you're not good at what you do."

But he is doing a good job. He is keeping the unenlightened from heaven until they have evolved enought to be able to exist there without being judgemental because of their views. But yes good and evil is a bad messurement. Symbiosic tendecies vs parasitic egoistic tendencies seem to be a better meassurement and one that you can quantify esier. You gotta meassure to see progress. It is ok to hate the behaviour if it is parasitic egoistic. But I realise that the ones doing it are just ignorant of what they are doing. How can I judge them when I am not sure I am doing enought in the right direction, except in anger when they cross over the line so far that I am ashamed to be the same speice as them? We are so screwed up and could have been so much more. Thank god I can laught at the stupidety of it all and will probably until I die.

Satan is the manipulator that want to control for his own benifit. The ulitmate parasitic ego from my point of view. And manipulator/bullies uses divide and conqeurer methods and we follow by choosing their side. Christianety against Islam. Republic vs democrats. I have chosen my own way. Do not choose when there is no good choice not matter how much they tell you you must choose. I do not have to follow if I do not want to and they cannot fear me into acting if I do not want to.

Originally posted by IronArm
I was laying in bed last night, and a thought came to my head. What has formed civiizations opinions or moral structure?

On the most basic biosociological level, "right" is generally anything that allows the members of society to establish social systems to safely procreate and raise children. "Wrong" is anything that might interfere with that.

The problem arises when you have two separate tribes or nations and one has control over scarce resources the other one needs, and neither side is in a position to bargain or compromise. Then both sides, in an attempt to maintain or protect the ability of their own people to procreate, justify violent conflict.

That's why the greatest threat to humanity these days is... peace. Not war. It has us producing way too many children safely, and pushing the available resources of the planet to the maximum to raise them. Not too far from now in the future, lack of water and food, and pandemics, will kill off more people than we ever killed in wars.

I have eaten meat my whole life but nowadays I have started to think all those poor feller animals who suffer in their little cages just because we want to eat our asses to obesity.

Im not vegetarian, yet. Although I have ingreasingly started to think about it. But this thread started me thinking about the subject of right and wrong. I wish there would be a solution to end suffering of animals. In my eyes they have soul and wisdom in them.

On the flip of the coin, some animals eat other animals too, so in that sense it relieves me little. BUT the things we humans do to animal kingdom is like nazis did to jews. Its horrible. And just because corporate markets want more money.

Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy
I have eaten meat my whole life but nowadays I have started to think all those poor feller animals who suffer in their little cages just because we want to eat our asses to obesity.

Im not vegetarian, yet. Although I have ingreasingly started to think about it. But this thread started me thinking about the subject of right and wrong. I wish there would be a solution to end suffering of animals. In my eyes they have soul and wisdom in them.

Cue Sarah McLaughlin "In the arms of an angel" lol.

On the flip of the coin, some animals eat other animals too, so in that sense it relieves me little. BUT the things we humans do to animal kingdom is like nazis did to jews. Its horrible. And just because corporate markets want more money.

edit on 16-4-2012 by RhinestoneCowboy because: (no reason given)

Its perfectly alright to eat animals. This is also how I justify murder (as long as you eat what you kill). But I do think its kind of messed up to cage animals and take away their free will. But energy is neither created nor destroyed, so the entrapment will manifest as our advancement.

Originally posted by Blue Shift

Originally posted by IronArm
I was laying in bed last night, and a thought came to my head. What has formed civiizations opinions or moral structure?

On the most basic biosociological level, "right" is generally anything that allows the members of society to establish social systems to safely procreate and raise children. "Wrong" is anything that might interfere with that.

The problem arises when you have two separate tribes or nations and one has control over scarce resources the other one needs, and neither side is in a position to bargain or compromise. Then both sides, in an attempt to maintain or protect the ability of their own people to procreate, justify violent conflict.

That's why the greatest threat to humanity these days is... peace. Not war. It has us producing way too many children safely, and pushing the available resources of the planet to the maximum to raise them. Not too far from now in the future, lack of water and food, and pandemics, will kill off more people than we ever killed in wars.

I hate to say it, but this makes absolute sense. 7 Billion and rising...is that right? Excess of unsupportable life?

reply to post by ~Vixen~

You claim that no one can truly be good without god, but I believe that since god doesn't exist, good and evil are subjective terms which vary depending on your cultural and/or social upbringing. It's not something that any god gave us, but rather something that we've developed over time based on the standards of our society. For some reason you seem to believe that those who deny the existence of your god are inherently evil, yet many of us promote love, harmony and acceptance, actively give to charity, and are considered honorable role models in our society. Likewise, the prison system is filled with people who profess to follow god, yet commit crimes against others, promote hate and intolerance, and only care about themselves. I'm not good because I fear god, I'm good because over the course of my life I've come to understand, and embrace, the principles that are generally considered to be good or acceptable.

That is the gospel of the worldly there is no good or evil; like if enough people decide killing their loved ones for the gain of money is ok then it will be good.

Just like Hitler thought he was doing good or so did Stalin, or maybe the next leader soon and then your family is on the list will you just sit by and say well the leader says so so it must be good.

Or what about stealing, we all know robbery is bad it takes what some one worked hard for and rips it away. But yeah taking pencils from the company you work at is not really stealing because they make bunches of money so they can afford to lose it.

All are evil that do not know God and some that do.

Do you ever steal from others? Do you ever lie even a little lie? Have you ever looked at another in lust?
Have you ever thought some one dead?

If you have which if you say no you just lied, you are evil as I am the only difference is I have accepted Jesus as my Lord and savior and I work daily to make sure not to break his commandments or to transgress his precepts and remove iniquity from my heart.

I hate to say it, but this makes absolute sense. 7 Billion and rising...is that right? Excess of unsupportable life?

reply to post by IronArm


More ignorance, the only reason that people starve in greed, destroying food to keep up prices and make it unaffordable to those in need.

Really research what you state before typing it. Look at both sides and do not go at it with a bias.
There is much land to live upon and to farm and still have the wild life. It takes management and the stop of greed.

The overseers would have you to believe such hogwash so you can propagate their belief. Have you ever got out there and looked at how much land is wasted. Do you know that everyone in WWII grew a garden in every piece of dirt they could find.

Now hardly anyone even grows their own herbs.

War propagated by the holders keep food from the mouths of those in need and gives it to the souldiers.

reply to post by ACTS 2:38


I'm merely stimulating discussion, I have not asserted my ideologies, so please, do not assume.