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Spain and Croatia. Heroin was the main drug these guys were addicted to.
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Originally posted by Hydroman
I lived on the mission field for over 2 years with drug addicts. Never once did I see a demon possessed person, and I lived with hundreds of different ones.
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Children can be possessed by demons. Go on a mission trip sometime.
I can answer that REALLY quickly, where did you go to? Which nation or nations?
Originally posted by DISRAELI
Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
Dewey it's the marriage feast! Have you not read that those who come in without a wedding garment will be cast out? Does the parable of the virgins or matthew 24 mean nothing to you?
They do mean something to me, but they mean other things.
You seem to be so wrapped up in the Rapture-centric interpretations of these parables as to be completely unconscious that other interpretations can exist, or that these other interpretations held sway for the best part of two thousand years before the Rapture theorists came along with more abstruse and esoteric interpretations.Your approach seems to be the product of controlling indoctrination from one school of thought, which gave you no access to other lines of approach.
A more detailed response will have to wait until I've double-checked a few textbooks on these parables.
And who on earth is Dewey?
Consensus of scholars.
How have you come about to believe that 2nd Thess . and Timothy are forged ?
Talking about a different event.
Matthew 24 was no doubt written after Jesus died as a testament to his works and teachings .
Different events. Revelation and Ezekiel and Daniel I would lump in together as not being especially useful for anything. Daniel gets some credence by people on account of the name appearing in Matthew. What is going on in the NT is use of the terminology of the day, even if it is apocryphal, if it conveys a useful concept for the purpose at hand.
Matthew , Daniel ,Ezekiel Zachariah Revelations all talk about the apocalypse .
It is merely your theory that everything within a binding is the word of God.
You seem to have spent time trying to pick apart the word of God .
By the context of a post-fall-of-the-Jerusalem-temple-timing, for one thing, and the situation with the church.
How can you know when the book of 2nd Thess. was written .
The important fact is that Paul left the scene pretty early on, as described in Romans, where he was headed to unfamiliar territory, and probably just disappeared, and a later mythology arose where he died in Rome.
Or exactly when Paul died .
You seem to be conveying the idea of a slippery slope where once you question anything, you inevitably end with no faith. I am not afraid of that because of past experiences with God.
I wonder if soon you will find that there are contradictions throughout the bible and start looking elsewhere for divine guidance like so many experts I have known .
Just human psychology, not hard to predict. The only real proof would be the sudden disappearance of a cross-section of society, which of course then would be too late to be of any use to the ones "left behind". Of course I do not buy into any of that nonsense. That theory is based on John N. Darby's theory that the "restraint" is actually good people who have to be removed to expose the bad people who will then all be destroyed, which is jut ridiculous from my point of view, being the reverse of saving the world, which is what Jesus originally came to do.
The fact is that we can now see much of what Paul told of in 2nd Thess. coming into reality .
Of course this is all just wild speculation based on the idea that Jesus only fulfilled part of prophecy and the rest "must" be fulfilled in some other way. I take that as an insult against Jesus.
The Jews are going to rebuild the Temple , the NWO will be implementing the world -e money- system called the Mark of the Beast and people will Fall Away taking the mark to keep to be able to buy sell and trade .
More wild speculation based on Darby's interpretation of 2 Thess., where he changes "seated" into "takes the seat".
And when the Temple is finished the Antichrist will seek the seat at the head of all power . Gods seat .
I use only part of Preterist theory, which is that judgment was demonstrated in a way that vindicated Jesus against the ones who charged him with blasphemy.
Are you a Preterist?
Fair enough. I thought maybe a military person might have heard of these in passing, not the detail of them, just that they do exist and where possible locations are.
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
And I didn't say that they may have never heard of them. I said if they have the clearance to give you info about them they will not. That's treason to divulge classified information to a person not of the same clearance level.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
You are mixing things up as if by confusion you can bring some sort of clarity from it.
Dewey it's the marriage feast! Have you not read that those who come in without a wedding garment will be cast out? Does the parable of the virgins or matthew 24 mean nothing to you? Come on His return for to invite those wise virgins is not the same return as when He comes with the Father in the clouds, on a white horse clothed in scarlet coming to slay the evil one with the spirit of his mouth and brightness of his coming.
The Parables in the Gospel are about Jesus' first coming to earth by way of being born here.
Spiritually, oil represents the Holy Spirit. Jesus said he was going away but would send us the Comforter, The Holy Spirit. We know that the virgins are those believers who possess a measure of the Holy Spirit. So we see here that not only is this parable not discussing his birth but that we are also not talking about those who don't accept Christ to begin with. The Jews are still waiting on their messiah and will accordingly (apart from 144000 elect) be duped with the rest of the world by the lying miracles of the beast.
The Jews were waiting for their Messiah, and missed him.
They are not about a second coming.
Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
For example, for the last two thousand years people have been perfectly content to interpret the parable of the Virgins in terms of the Parousia, the final Return of Christ, and the need for faith in waiting for that event. They've always been regarded as the same event; it's not at all self-evident that they should be treated as different events.
Your line of attack seems to be to quote a basket-full of passages traditionally understood as relating to the Parousia, and to say "See, this proves the Rapture". It doesn't do anything of the kind.
Like not finding a justification for giving military aid to a band of pirates calling themselves a state, in illegally occupied Palestine. Which proves my point that you have a cult of Bible interpretation invented and then promoted for this very purpose. And woe unto those who harm one of the least of these in the kingdom, better to have a mill-stone tied to your neck and cast into the sea.
I don't trust you to impart understanding judging by what our previous conversations entail. No disrespect.
The birth I brought up to differentiate the first coming from the second coming, which in my view will be accompanied by God's coming, where Jesus would be the one bringing those who had previously believed in him, but have died from this natural world. As for the point of the sayings of Jesus, you can look at where he described the target for them, where he describes the people who should have been already part of this kingdom come, but did not believe, for lack of light that should have been recognized by them, but rejected.
Spiritually, oil represents the Holy Spirit. Jesus said he was going away but would send us the Comforter, The Holy Spirit. We know that the virgins are those believers who possess a measure of the Holy Spirit. So we see here that not only is this parable not discussing his birth but that we are also not talking about those who don't accept Christ to begin with.
This is also based on a reinterpretation by Darby, where instead of being deluded by a spirit from God, as described in 2 Thess., he changes it to being deceived by false works.
The Jews are still waiting on their messiah and will accordingly (apart from 144000 elect) be duped with the rest of the world by the lying miracles of the beast.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
Like not finding a justification for giving military aid to a band of pirates calling themselves a state, in illegally occupied Palestine.
I don't trust you to impart understanding judging by what our previous conversations entail. No disrespect.
Which proves my point that you have a cult of Bible interpretation invented and then promoted for this very purpose. And woe unto those who harm one of the least of these in the kingdom, better to have a mill-stone tied to your neck and cast into the sea.
The birth I brought up to differentiate the first coming from the second coming, which in my view will be accompanied by God's coming, where Jesus would be the one bringing those who had previously believed in him, but have died from this natural world. As for the point of the sayings of Jesus, you can look at where he described the target for them, where he describes the people who should have been already part of this kingdom come, but did not believe, for lack of light that should have been recognized by them, but rejected.
Spiritually, oil represents the Holy Spirit. Jesus said he was going away but would send us the Comforter, The Holy Spirit. We know that the virgins are those believers who possess a measure of the Holy Spirit. So we see here that not only is this parable not discussing his birth but that we are also not talking about those who don't accept Christ to begin with.
This is also based on a reinterpretation by Darby, where instead of being deluded by a spirit from God, as described in 2 Thess., he changes it to being deceived by false works.
The Jews are still waiting on their messiah and will accordingly (apart from 144000 elect) be duped with the rest of the world by the lying miracles of the beast.
I'm not disregarding anything, and if it is anyone, it is you, who fail to recognize that the Gospel's purpose is to show why there is no Longer a temple cult in Jerusalem which stands as the only true place to worship God. When God came, they not only failed to recognize his coming even when they knew to expect him, but then they murdered him and the disciples that they could get their hands on. So this is why all the parables and other illusions are about them and their failure, the people who were looking right at him and listening to him.
Go ahead and just disregard the scripture you don't like or don't understand if you want. I wish you wouldn't but you obviously can't get past the parable of the virgins or the marriage feast, or the difference in his coming with the Father with an army of angels vs coming like lighting, like a thief for the wise virgins.
If that is "all you know" then why were you saying something else a little while ago? It seems like you "know" a lot else, like what you were saying earlier, that it is the work of the beast, then conflating it with 2 Thess. which says nothing about a beast. I was pointing out how the founder of your cult made his own translation of the NT where he changed the delusion to a a working of deception to mislead people. Since you belong to his cult, it may be helpful to you to look at who invented all these concepts in your belief system.
You may base it on Darby since you're the cult expert here but seriously, I'm just telling what the book says. Because you would not believe the truth I will send you strong delusion that you might believe a lie (that lie being this: that the anti-christ is Christ the awaited messiah to the jews and Imam mahdi to Islam according to the miracles he shows forth in power). I don't see how you don't get it.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
I'm not disregarding anything, and if it is anyone, it is you, who fail to recognize that the Gospel's purpose is to show why there is no Longer a temple cult in Jerusalem which stands as the only true place to worship God. When God came, they not only failed to recognize his coming even when they knew to expect him, but then they murdered him and the disciples that they could get their hands on. So this is why all the parables and other illusions are about them and their failure, the people who were looking right at him and listening to him.
Go ahead and just disregard the scripture you don't like or don't understand if you want. I wish you wouldn't but you obviously can't get past the parable of the virgins or the marriage feast, or the difference in his coming with the Father with an army of angels vs coming like lighting, like a thief for the wise virgins.
If that is "all you know" then why were you saying something else a little while ago? It seems like you "know" a lot else, like what you were saying earlier, that it is the work of the beast, then conflating it with 2 Thess. which says nothing about a beast.
You may base it on Darby since you're the cult expert here but seriously, I'm just telling what the book says. Because you would not believe the truth I will send you strong delusion that you might believe a lie (that lie being this: that the anti-christ is Christ the awaited messiah to the jews and Imam mahdi to Islam according to the miracles he shows forth in power). I don't see how you don't get it.
I was pointing out how the founder of your cult made his own translation of the NT where he changed the delusion to a a working of deception to mislead people. Since you belong to his cult, it may be helpful to you to look at who invented all these concepts in your belief system.
All this stuff about there being an antichrist person is again the invention of John N. Darby.
The point being, you are following a cult doctrine all made up by a single person, and then was promoted with big financial backing by the people who wanted to create a modern Israel to push forward world Communism.edit on 18-4-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
Id really like to hear how some miss the event if it happens at the end or even after the great tribulation. Don't leave out the unwise virgins, the fact that they have oil just not an extra crux, and the fact that the door is shut to them wherein the have to come later.
Consensus of scholars.
Originally posted by Hydroman
Spain and Croatia. Heroin was the main drug these guys were addicted to.
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Originally posted by Hydroman
I lived on the mission field for over 2 years with drug addicts. Never once did I see a demon possessed person, and I lived with hundreds of different ones.
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Children can be possessed by demons. Go on a mission trip sometime.
I can answer that REALLY quickly, where did you go to? Which nation or nations?
Jews didn't have the oil Dewey. The virgins are about Christians and can be referenced to the churches in revelation but I wont even start that with you. I agree that there is no universal spot for worship, that it is now inside of us, but that does not negate Israel as a nation or the fact that Netanyahu has claimed that in 2013 they are going to rebuild their temple.......al aksa is not the temple of God and the image of the beast cannot be set up inside of us who are prepared with the Holy spirit so that only leaves one option.....a temple will be rebuilt which means along with other prophecy that Israel's existence is for a reason.
I can only tell you about what I've read in KJV scripture.
Orrrrr, the people in these poor nations are not well educated. They are still superstitious. They have seen missionaries come and go and have been educated by them to believe a certain way. A person with a medical condition, like being prone to seizures, is demon possessed to them. I would bet that if these people were educated securlarly, these demons would go away.
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Figured so, in "Western society" cultures and nations with mass media means and public or government education stan's strategy is he doesn't exist, demons are foolish, and Evolution is the dominant teaching. Go to a POOOOOOR nation without running water, electricity, witch doctors etc where the people don't doubt that God/devil, angels/messengers, demons exist and they manifest everywhere for show. They try to make the people think they have the real power, they keep people in fear. Go to a nation where that stuff from Western culture is non-existent and you'll see how real spiritual warfare really is.
Originally posted by Hydroman
Orrrrr, the people in these poor nations are not well educated. They are still superstitious. They have seen missionaries come and go and have been educated by them to believe a certain way. A person with a medical condition, like being prone to seizures, is demon possessed to them. I would bet that if these people were educated securlarly, these demons would go away.
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Figured so, in "Western society" cultures and nations with mass media means and public or government education stan's strategy is he doesn't exist, demons are foolish, and Evolution is the dominant teaching. Go to a POOOOOOR nation without running water, electricity, witch doctors etc where the people don't doubt that God/devil, angels/messengers, demons exist and they manifest everywhere for show. They try to make the people think they have the real power, they keep people in fear. Go to a nation where that stuff from Western culture is non-existent and you'll see how real spiritual warfare really is.
Do you have sources? This would be easy to test.
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Go to Haiti where witchcraft is prevalent and education is nearly non-existent and see what happens when a fire-baby walks into the room. (Person baptized with fire) Get prepared to watch the show. lol Glory to God. Go to a Western media and education driven culture and it takes a prophet or someone with the gift of spiritual discernment to spot people afflicted with demonic possession.
Originally posted by DISRAELI
t…It is not a description of the kingdom of heaven in general, but of what will happen when God’s sovereign purpose reaches its climax in the parousia of the Son of man…The theme of the “delayed coming” was no doubt already an issue when Matthew wrote…This parable, like the last, insists that delay is no excuse for not being ready at any time… The formal finality of “the door was shut again” effectively makes the point that there is a “too late” in God’s timetable”
Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
Id really like to hear how some miss the event if it happens at the end or even after the great tribulation. Don't leave out the unwise virgins, the fact that they have oil just not an extra crux, and the fact that the door is shut to them wherein the have to come later.
Next I turn to “The Parables of Jesus”, by Joachim Jeremias.(p.51)
He makes the point that this is one of a whole series of “Parousia parables”, going back to c24 v32.
“hence Matthew saw in the parable an allegory of the Parousia of Christ, the heavenly bridegroom: the ten virgins are the expectant Christian community: the “tarrying” of the bridegroom is the postponement of the Parousia: his sudden coming is the unexpected incidence of the Parousia, the stern rejection of the foolish virgins is the final judgement”.
As I said, everything in terms of the Parousia.
Jeremias argues that what Matthew is presenting is the church’s teaching, that Jesus would originally have been criticising the Pharisees and others refusing to listen to him. But that doesn’t affect my case, because the church’s teaching is precisely what I’m trying to establish.
Couple problems. 1) I didn't say they come through the door. 2) we are talking about an invitation to the bridegroom feast not salvation as a whole, 3) Spiritually, "oil" always represents the Holy Spirit in scripture, and 4) Why would Jesus tell the unwise ,"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh,"(this is after they come back, after the wise have been taken) if in fact there is no more salvation and he be not talking about another Parousia?
You ask me to explain how they can miss out on salvation if they still have the “oil” of the Spirit.
This need not be what the oil signifies. “Having no oil” may simply be the device the story uses to get them away from the door at the crucial time. But in any case, the whole point of the story is that they don’t have any at the time when it matters. Whatever faith they might have had in the beginning, it has gone away.