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Messages to the Builders in Symbol - The End is at Hand - REPENT

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posted on Apr, 15 2012 @ 11:31 PM
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Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Okay, this gets into the Systematic Theological concept of Angelology, but a brief tutorial:

Angels are made of light and fire. (Don't ask, I don't understand this concept myself), but what make a sinful person unable to stand in His presence is the flesh with sin in it immediately burns up and is consumed. Angels cannot perish.
Are you saying that Satan has no sin? That's why he can exist in god's presence? Or that Satan has sin, but can also exist in god's presence, but since he's an angel he can't perish??? What about a spirit person, would they perish?


No, I'm saying he has no flesh.




posted on Apr, 15 2012 @ 11:48 PM
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reply to post by Hydroman
 





I think you're completely wrong about that. Did you know firefighters die trying to save people they don't know? What about police officers? Soldiers? I could go on...


Nah, no one thinks they will ever die until it happens and then its a shock. Then the flashbacks over your life begin and regrets set in. I've been on the brink of death 13 times and i can honestly tell you that you will never believe it could happen to you until it starts happening and you start dying. I am no stranger to seeing death either. My wife is a nurse and last week one of her co-workers traded days off with her for extra time, the day she traded with my wife which was last wednesday, she was on her way to work and her car flipped, threw her out and rolled over her and crushed her. It can happen that quick. You're here one minute and the next youre dead.
edit on 15-4-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 16 2012 @ 06:13 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


And Biblical repentance means that when the thoughts are changed the feelings and behavior are a natural result acted out in practice of the change in thought.


My point is twofold:

a)you said it always fails.....not true -- But I see you do grasp the idea.

b)and you say that it can only happen THROUGH "Biblical repentence," which is not true. It happens to people who choose to work at it, whether or not they believe in God or accept Christ.

This last is the most important thing. A person can achieve the same results without knowing Christ, without "confessing him" or "claiming" they are a sinner who doesn't deserve anything good.

They are still a good person and worthy of the same acknowledgment.
You seem to say "that's fine and good and well but they STILL WILL GO TO HELL."

Your message to people is not uplifting; my message is that we are all human, we all make mistakes and we all are going to work our way there. The lessons may take longer, the experiences be more painful than what others endure, but there is no "you failed -- get out" in the end.



posted on Apr, 16 2012 @ 08:54 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
No, I'm saying he has no flesh.
...and sin can exist in god's presence?



posted on Apr, 16 2012 @ 08:56 AM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Nah, no one thinks they will ever die until it happens and then its a shock.
So you can honestly say that no one has ever saved someone else that they don't know, knowing that they could die? That's pretty bold.


Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
You're here one minute and the next youre dead.
I don't argue that at all.



posted on Apr, 16 2012 @ 09:41 AM
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reply to post by Hydroman
 


You and I exist, so that's an obvious and easy yes.



posted on Apr, 16 2012 @ 11:33 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


I meant the Biblical concept of repentance. We agree totally just the Psychology world gives the conceptual model a different label. Not saying one must be Christian or believe the Bible. Make sense?



posted on Apr, 16 2012 @ 11:34 AM
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Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
No, I'm saying he has no flesh.
...and sin can exist in god's presence?


Alright, put your gnat bait back in the tackle box. This is a camel fishing contest.



posted on Apr, 16 2012 @ 12:42 PM
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Originally posted by Iason321
reply to post by Hydroman
 


You and I exist, so that's an obvious and easy yes.
Sorry, what are you responding to?



posted on Apr, 16 2012 @ 12:44 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Alright, put your gnat bait back in the tackle box. This is a camel fishing contest.
Not sure I understand what you're saying. Anyway, I thought I asked a legit question. You said that sin can not exist in god's presence, yet we see that Satan, who is the father of sin, is often in god's presence. How is this possible?



posted on Apr, 16 2012 @ 01:24 PM
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reply to post by Hydroman
 


You asked if sin could exist in God's presence,

Me and you are walking billboards for sin,

and we are in His constant presence,

(Define omnipresence)

Therefore, sin exists in Gods presence



posted on Apr, 16 2012 @ 01:43 PM
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Originally posted by Iason321
reply to post by Hydroman
 


You asked if sin could exist in God's presence,

Me and you are walking billboards for sin,

and we are in His constant presence,

(Define omnipresence)

Therefore, sin exists in Gods presence
I was responding to NuT who said that it can not exist in his presence.



posted on Apr, 16 2012 @ 07:59 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



Not saying one must be Christian or believe the Bible. Make sense?


It makes sense that you understand the process. But you repeatedly have claimed that without 'confessing Christ' all the 'reformation' and 'rehabilitation' a person with no concept of God, or no belief in Christ, is useless.

It makes sense that people can and do change, when their former beliefs, thoughts, feelings, actions are no longer working for them.

And that, in my opinion, equals repentance and internal change. Which also, in my opinion, makes one 'saved' by virtue of their having decided that they are sorry and remorseful and from then on want to do good things and help others..

That is all that is required.



posted on Apr, 16 2012 @ 09:43 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 



It makes sense that you understand the process.


So why attack me basically saying I don't know crap about Psychology?


But you repeatedly have claimed that without 'confessing Christ' all the 'reformation' and 'rehabilitation' a person with no concept of God, or no belief in Christ, is useless.


I'm pretty sure I said just changing behavior without first a change of mind is simply a doomed-to-fail exercise in "behavior modification" and will not have lasting effects. Without first changing the mind, the behavior will revert back to the original behavior that aligns with the mindset that never changed.

I'm explaining the Biblical definition of "repentance", which isn't the classic "turn 180 degrees back to God and act differently."


edit on 16-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 16 2012 @ 09:45 PM
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Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Alright, put your gnat bait back in the tackle box. This is a camel fishing contest.
Not sure I understand what you're saying. Anyway, I thought I asked a legit question. You said that sin can not exist in god's presence, yet we see that Satan, who is the father of sin, is often in god's presence. How is this possible?


I answered/clarified my statement already. Sinful flesh cannot stand in His presence. It's immediately consumed with His Holy fire. satan has no flesh to consume in His presence.



posted on Apr, 17 2012 @ 08:05 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



Without first changing the mind, the behavior will revert back to the original behavior that aligns with the mindset that never changed.

That is where your mistake is. One can work on changing ANY of the three and STILL affect the other two.

I didn't say you don't know "crap"...I said that your statement about behavior mod requiring FIRST a change of mind is incorrect, and it is. If a person changes their behavior deliberately OFTEN ENOUGH....they will ALSO change their thoughts and feelings. Each is able to affect the other two.

"Fake it til you make it" is one way to explain it. And it does work. EDIT---->rather, it CAN work...IF the client is committed to the long haul of "faking it." Like I said, it's hard work, though. And lots of people don't have the fortitude of those who stick it out. Hence "recidivism."


edit on 17-4-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 17 2012 @ 08:11 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


There's got to be reason to change behavior though, something has to change that persons entire worldview.

Take drug addicts for example, I happen to know many firsthand, and I can testify to this being true - Psychiactry, counseling, the government, Suboxone, Methadone, all have tried to beat drug addiction, and all have utterly failed.

Even psychiatrists are willing to admit that a spiritual approach is the best way to overcome drug addiction, almost every rehab in the US relies on the 12-step model and AA/NA, which in turn relies on God, and has it's roots in Christian organizations.

I have never, never, ever seen a single person overcome drug addiction through medication, counseling, or psychiatry. I have seen secular avenues fail for multiple people on multiple occasions. The one thing I have witnessed that has the power to save helpless drug addicts from imminent demise is God.



posted on Apr, 17 2012 @ 08:22 AM
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reply to post by Iason321
 



I have never, never, ever seen a single person overcome drug addiction through medication, counseling, or psychiatry. I have seen secular avenues fail for multiple people on multiple occasions. The one thing I have witnessed that has the power to save helpless drug addicts from imminent demise is God.

Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I did it myself 35 years ago...simply decided I was going to stop using, and did.

AA does not work for everyone, either.

What it takes is a CRISIS....it can be a scary-bad "trip", a near-death OD, witnessing someone else dying, getting thrown in jail, losing their kids, becoming destitute and ostracized...any of those can do it. Drug use is a symptom, not a "cause" of dis-ease. People develop coping strategies throughout their lives. As long as that strategy works, even FEEBLY and with secondary unpleasant consequences that are painful, they will keep it up. When they finally get to the place that the coping strategy no longer takes care of the dis-ease, they will be ready to consider learning another, more productive COPING STRATEGY.

But the core of recovery is to figure out what the UNDERLYING problem is. And it usually has nothing to do with faith.

Iason, please, until you have been a substance-abuse counselor and seen from the inside the different ways that people disengage from counterproductive coping skills, you don't really know.
Been there, done that, got the T-shirt and the scars. Learned how to help others...and know what can and can't work. Religion alone is only as effective as forced abstention, like the antibuse meds...white-knuckle sobriety.

The REAL recovery is when the person doesn't just "not do it", but when they no longer "need to", because they have found alternative, healthier coping strategies.



posted on Apr, 17 2012 @ 08:29 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


An education or career as a substance abuse counselor doesn't necessarily mean you know everything there is to know about addiction, I've actually known some pretty clueless counselors and RN's and other healthcare workers through my days, I have two neighbors who are substance abuse counselors and their both completely clueless, plus one's a closet alcoholic.

Don't get me started on pharmacology, and the problems with modern psychiatry and SAMHSA / DEA mess,
that's a whole can of worms you don't wanna open with me, WT.




posted on Apr, 17 2012 @ 08:35 AM
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reply to post by Iason321
 



that's a whole can of worms you don't wanna open with me, WT.

Nor do you want to open it with me, Iason.
I just said, I have been there, done that...I survived it, I recovered, and I learned the root causes of it...and THEN I decided to become a helper, and I was very successful at it.

I never said that all SA counselors are worthwhile (the majority aren't, because they don't address the underlying problem)...and even the "funders" don't get it. Dual diagnosis is the part most of them miss. They see the drug use as the problem, rather than the drug use being a symptom of the underlying pain that is the REAL problem. So they say, "we will fund the treatment as long as it deals directly with the drug use, but not the part where you talk about how the client was raped and beaten to a pulp, or told they were a hopeless sinner, or whatever else happened to them."

Ridiculous. The two cannot be separated. The WHOLE PERSON needs treatment, not just the action of using. The shame and ridicule that many faiths pump into the brains of youth can actually CAUSE those feelings of self-loathing (raises hand).

My own Religious Upbringing was part of the problem that caused me to feel like a pile of crap about myself, and as an adolescent to try ways to cope with that....so for you to tell me, a 53-year old woman, that the only way for people to recover is to go back to the abuse of the "I'm a sinner mentality" for help is absolutely ridiculous.

I have no idea what your problems were before your self-medication episode(s) began, but I can guarandamntee you that it wasn't a lack of belief in God.






edit on 17-4-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)




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