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posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 05:36 PM
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reply to post by greeneyedleo
 


I have seen the following thing happen:

A person makes a thread about a conspiracy about ATS
They place it in General Conspiracies.
A mod figures it is more of a rant and moves it to the Rant section.
Another mod comes on and says, "this isn't a rant, thread now closed".
I am sure even if they argue and get it re-instated, it will be in BTS.
How is that fair?




posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 05:42 PM
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You are absolutely right OP.

It is ridiculous the double standards this site shows. I like ATS but I definitely think they should Deny Ignorance like the site is based on. Grow a set really.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

There is a thread that links to a video where a whole group of people get murdered, throats slit, head being cut off in one part.

But yesterday I posted about the officer who was caught masturbating on dashcam, he was also under investigation for stalking and stealing some dope. It was also in general chit chat, not a conspiracy forum. That gets removed because it has "sexually explicit content?!?"

It was noises for crying out loud, you didn't even see anything. People were having a laugh about it but because someone is so insecure about themselves that they can't say the word "penis" or "masturbate" without curling up into a ball like little kids it was deleted.

Sexually explicit content my balls.

Does that count too??




edit on 14-4-2012 by godfather420 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 05:54 PM
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Originally posted by RSF77
Instead of just deleting threads and promptly throwing them into a black hole never to see a trace of them again, perhaps everyone in the thread could be notified. Maybe even have a discussion amongst mods, or hell anyone, about why this particular thread that has more to do with law enforcement and a 73 year old lady than drugs needs to be immediately removed from the internet as if it never existed?


Other member's posts or OP's are not your concern. Staff discusses ALL actions taken against member accounts and threads, prior to making a decision. Decisions are made on two basic principles:

1.Does it violate the Terms & Conditions?
2. Is this content good or worthy of the ATS community?

It's really simple, you come here and ATS provides this venue free of charge. The Terms & Conditions are very clear regarding what is acceptable and what is not.

Anything outside those Terms & Conditions gets removed. If there is such a problem with the way the owners and staff run things, then why keep coming back?



The way ATS handles its censorship is suspicious. You want "formal", intelligent discussion? Then you need to do things formally yourself.


There is no "censorship" on ATS, as you do not have freedom of speech here. Nobody on the staff or the ownership ever made claim to giving you freedom of speech.

This is a private board, governed by the Terms that you agreed to when you signed up.

Again, if it's not to your liking, why return and post at all? I don't mean to sound rude or anything, but honestly, how hard is it to understand that we will enforce the rules you agreed to?

Nobody is forcing you to post on ATS, nobody is forcing you to remain on ATS.

The reason we do not discuss staff actions or members with other members is for these exact reasons.

Members do not seem to want to accept our explanation of events, regardless of the topic. There are always those who wish to paint the owners and staff as being the thought police somehow. Or that we have some sort of nefarious agenda.

When in reality, again, you all agreed to these rules. All we ask is that you abide by them.

~Tenth



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 06:26 PM
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reply to post by tothetenthpower
 


I agree with most of what you put there, however, by abiding to the T & C's, we cannot discuss the Catholic Church, link to any website where there might be a profanity (what is considered a profanity is not clear either),


15g.) Political Baiting: You will not engage in politically-charged rhetoric, politically-inspired name-calling, and related right-versus-left political bickering while Posting in any topical forum or discussion thread on the Websites. You will not alter political candidate names or party affiliations in order to insult or deride the opposition.
, this one is probably the most overlooked one. Forum gangs are the greatest and they do reside here, check [LINK NOT ALLOWED] for the wannabe mod gang. I can understand that it is a hard job, but, it is like any other business. You have to keep things fair if you want return clients. We are the people that attract and use the advertisers. We are the people that keep this site alive. Until all rules of the T & C are adhered to equally, I think it is more than fair to call some mods the "thought police".
edit on Sun Apr 15 2012 by DontTreadOnMe because: LInking to RATS is not allowed.



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 06:31 PM
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reply to post by superman2012
 

Every single action done by a moderator....every single bit of communication between moderator and member is transparent to the entire staff. So to label "some mods" this or that is disingenuous at best...and simply false. We are a transparent staff....that discusses actions.

There is an alert button. We encourage members to use it if they see T&C violations.

The T&C are accessible to all members to read. Each member needs to read it and understand the rules. Each member is responsible for their own posts.

While the site is user generated - true - those very users AGREED to abide by the T&C. If they don't and their post or thread is removed, whos fault is that?

Lastly, if any member has an issue with an action taken by staff members, they are free to use the complaint form. We are always open to communication with members.
edit on April 14th 2012 by greeneyedleo because: (no reason given)
edit on Sun Apr 15 2012 by DontTreadOnMe because: edit needed due to quote issue



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 06:42 PM
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Originally posted by superman2012
reply to post by tothetenthpower
 



I agree with most of what you put there, however, by abiding to the T & C's, we cannot discuss the Catholic Church, link to any website where there might be a profanity (what is considered a profanity is not clear either),


Where would the provision be that you cannot discuss the Catholic Church? As for linking to profanity, I believe that clause is mostly for videos.

In any case, I think it's a bit silly to dissect the Terms & Conditions and try to come up with a reason point by point, line by line, how we don't enforce them fairly.

That's pretty much impossible considering the different staff members and their views,opinions, beliefs & considering the ammount of traffic here daily.

, this one is probably the most overlooked one. Forum gangs are the greatest and they do reside here, check this thread for the wannabe mod gang. I can understand that it is a hard job, but, it is like any other business. You have to keep things fair if you want return clients. We are the people that attract and use the advertisers. We are the people that keep this site alive. Until all rules of the T & C are adhered to equally, I think it is more than fair to call some mods the "thought police".

And where are the alerts from the membership regarding these problems? We are about 70 staff members for a membership of almost 250 thousand. Do you think we are able to see everything that goes on behind this board on a daily basis?

Is it fair to attempt to hold that staff accountable to making sure that we are doing it right 100% of the time? Are we not human? Are we not entitled to our mistakes? ( which we make up for I would hope in all situations of wrongdoing or oversight)

I understand that this site is member generated content, but those who complain are a very small minority in comparison to the thousands of members that visit everyday and don't feel the need to rummage through thread after thread looking for staff mistakes or conflicting situations regarding the T&C.

It's really an absurd notion to think that ANY website, be it a forum or a news agency or a government or even your neighboors, will do the things they claim to do 100% of the time correctly. Mistakes are made, in this case T&C violations are over looked.

But instead of throwing your discontent at us, why not look towards yourself? Do you alert every post that's a T&C infraction? Do you notify staff when you think that certain members are carrying on as gangs, effectively violating the T&C?

Help us help you.

~Tenth
edit on 4/14/2012 by tothetenthpower because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 06:54 PM
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reply to post by tothetenthpower
 





There is no "censorship" on ATS, as you do not have freedom of speech here. Nobody on the staff or the ownership ever made claim to giving you freedom of speech.


Oh my god.....the irony.

Double facepalm and using my feet as well.

Comedy gold, this level of denial.



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 06:59 PM
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reply to post by tothetenthpower
 





In any case, I think it's a bit silly to dissect the Terms & Conditions and try to come up with a reason point by point, line by line, how we don't enforce them fairly.


I agree it is, but, I have seen, and I am sure you have, some mods do this exact thing when deciding about whether or not to close a thread.




That's pretty much impossible considering the different staff members and their views,opinions, beliefs & considering the ammount of traffic here daily.


I guess that was my point. Shouldn't there be a set point that the staff members should enforce something instead of relying on a human with biases? Even self regulating and not enforcing on threads where they are biased. I think that would relieve a lot of these types of threads and complaints.




Is it fair to attempt to hold that staff accountable to making sure that we are doing it right 100% of the time? Are we not human? Are we not entitled to our mistakes? ( which we make up for I would hope in all situations of wrongdoing or oversight)


Yes. It wasn't forced upon you or the others, it was your choice, you have a list of rules and you are in charge of making sure we follow them to the letter when they choose. Yes you are human ( I hope
) but so are we and that doesn't mean that we can't question it (or does it?). Yes there are mistakes that are rectified, but, there are also others that offer no explanation besides, "cause I said so" or completely ignoring. I am lucky that I have been here long enough to interact with these ones and know when to let things slide. The thread I mentioned above was a good indicator for me.




I understand that this site is member generated content, but those who complain are a very small minority in comparison to the thousands of members that visit everyday and don't feel the need to rummage through thread after thread looking for staff mistakes or conflicting situations regarding the T&C.


If it happened to you, or you were witness to it, as much as I have noticed lately, you would be bringing it up too.




But instead of throwing your discontent at us, why not look towards yourself? Do you alert every post that's a T&C infraction? Do you notify staff when you think that certain members are carrying on as gangs, effectively violating the T&C?


As usual, you are right in the end, but, what do I do when the gangs are mods?
I don't want to be banned so I don't dare complain about them to other mods. I got post banned for arguing.



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 07:08 PM
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reply to post by tothetenthpower
 





It's really simple, you come here and ATS provides this venue free of charge.


And this is the core of the problem, something that I have noticed in the past months lurking.

This twisted reasoning.

People come here and provide the content this site feeds off, bases its whole existance on.

And we do it....free of charge.

People are making a living off of this. A little more respect would be appreciated. Letting people talk freely without fabricated reasons for not talking freely would be appreciated.

The level of disdain for the well founded criticism of the vocal minority is damn ugly if you ask me.

edit on 14-4-2012 by RandomEsotericScreenname because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 07:18 PM
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reply to post by greeneyedleo
 


You are both right. It is up to me if I feel the need to complain or alert the staff. It figures that the two mods that have been cordial and professional to me while explaining things in either a U2U or on a thread would respond. Can I give you two applause?



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 07:19 PM
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Originally posted by superman2012
reply to post by greeneyedleo
 


You are both right. It is up to me if I feel the need to complain or alert the staff. It figures that the two mods that have been cordial and professional to me while explaining things in either a U2U or on a thread would respond. Can I give you two applause?


Hmmm. How about some snacks for the show tnight, instead?



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 07:26 PM
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reply to post by superman2012
 


I read your post concerning not bringing up certain subjects on ATS or your out .... I just had to let you know that I agree'd w/ just about everything u said !

I'm trying to come to a conclusion myself concerning this issue ... I am Strongly leaning towards free speech... Although this isn't a Government enity they can pretty much run a nazi party and if you don't like it... The standard you can leave... Which I again agree with.... But somehow because the site stands for what it stands for... That's really a ridiculous thing to do which is censuring.... A concept Bush/Obama has really got a foothold on....

Anyways... Oxymoron comes to mind.

One poster loved the censorship so much she suggested more topics we shouldn't be able to talk about such as chemtrails....

I'm seriously starting to believe that people need and want a dictatorship in thier lives. They're always ready to try and control people. O- boy... When they can't... The whining starts



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 07:29 PM
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Originally posted by superman2012
reply to post by tothetenthpower
 



I agree it is, but, I have seen, and I am sure you have, some mods do this exact thing when deciding about whether or not to close a thread.


Closing of a thread is never something that is taken lightly. As mods, we discuss and we come to a consensus. Do I agree with everything that becomes policy within the T&C or decisions made ona general basis?

Nope, not one bit. But that doesn't mean I don't support the decisions of the majority of staff and ownership.

We are a team, who work together, but we also disagree. More than you would think.



I guess that was my point. Shouldn't there be a set point that the staff members should enforce something instead of relying on a human with biases? Even self regulating and not enforcing on threads where they are biased. I think that would relieve a lot of these types of threads and complaints.


The T&C is jsut for that, however somethings in the T&C aren't black and white. Racism for example. It's really difficult ( for me anyway) to deal with that sort of thing. I have a hard time understanding the entire concept. The same with sexism and a host of other issues that are not only hard to discuss, but even more so when we are tasked with make decisions about them.



Yes. It wasn't forced upon you or the others, it was your choice, you have a list of rules and you are in charge of making sure we follow them to the letter when they choose. Yes you are human ( I hope
) but so are we and that doesn't mean that we can't question it (or does it?). Yes there are mistakes that are rectified, but, there are also others that offer no explanation besides, "cause I said so" or completely ignoring. I am lucky that I have been here long enough to interact with these ones and know when to let things slide. The thread I mentioned above was a good indicator for me.


You are right, we did volunteer so the speak to become mods, because we love this community. However the mantra has always been member first. And I come to this discussing from the perspective of a member at this point. It is perfectly fine to question staff decisions and board policies.

I did so quite a lot when I was just a member and maybe I didn't always get the answer I wanted, but my interactions were always respectfull.

The problem is nobody wants to hear the answer most of the time and simply want to argue the point for lols it seems. I apologize if you've ever received such response to an action that was taken against you or one of your threads.

That's certainly not acceptable in my eyes. However if you were ever told that we won't discuss actions taken against other members, that I have to defend.



As usual, you are right in the end, but, what do I do when the gangs are mods?
I don't want to be banned so I don't dare complain about them to other mods. I got post banned for arguing.


You need not worry of being banned for asking legitimate questions about staff or site policy. Those who get in trouble are the ones who refuse to let the issue go when an appropriate answer has been given and become rude and unwilling to work with us to find a resolution.

Every ban is the result of a T&C violation, and we've never picked through it in order to find a reason to ban a member. In every instance I have seen ( in my little over a year being a mod) the member's banning was the result of their actions, not the staff.

I wish we never had to ban any members, but me and you both know that ATS is not for everybody.

I can't touch on your "mod are the gang" comments, mostly because I don't understand what it is that you mean. I see how a comparison could be drawn, but the T&C translation of Forum Gangs is different than the one you propose as I understand it.

~Tenth



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 07:47 PM
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reply to post by tothetenthpower
 





You need not worry of being banned for asking legitimate questions about staff or site policy. Those who get in trouble are the ones who refuse to let the issue go when an appropriate answer has been given and become rude and unwilling to work with us to find a resolution.


This is not always true. I can recall multiple cases where members were banned because they didn´t accept the socalled appropriate answers given by staff, wich weren´t appropriate at all. Often these answers sidestepped the issue, and the real questions weren´t answered.

I have seen threads get closed for total inappropriate reasons, like the one Superman just linked.

I have seen staff complain about socalled disgruntled ex members trying to attack ATS, never facing the fact that ATS staff created them themselves in the first place, because of the reasons above.

If you shut up and ban people for the simple fact of not accepting your reasoning, even though they didn´t break any TC rules, people will logically hold a grudge.

Why not let people wallow in their criticism if you are sure you are on the moral high ground, why ban them for repeating their questions even though you feel you have answered them?
edit on 14-4-2012 by RandomEsotericScreenname because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 07:54 PM
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reply to post by RandomEsotericScreenname
 


You confused what I wrote.

Nobody ever gets banned for disagreeing. They get banned for being rude about it and continually beating a dead horse while they are at it. The thread Superman quoted is a perfect example.

And in all honestly, how, would you know why a member was banned? The interactions you see on the boards are not an indication of what happens behind closed doors. You'd be surprised how many "good mannered" members end up being the most rude and umcompromising.

The vast majority of the people who questions the staff, it's policies and the T&C, are among you and are prolific posters. Some of the most prolific and popular members are part of the group that question us the most.

They are not banned. Because they are respectfull.

~Tenth



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 08:09 PM
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reply to post by tothetenthpower
 


No you are confused about what I wrote. I´m not talking about members losing it and getting banned, I know that stuff happens and it´s their own fault, although often it is preceeded by unfair treatment.

I´m talking about members being banned because they didn´t accept an answer and demanded a real answer.

I love how you say beating a dead horse, as it is a prime example of an unjust banning. Why should someone get banned for persistently asking a question if they feel it hasn´t been asnwered properly, even though staff may think it was? You are basically saying agree with us or get banned.

You said it, beating a dead horse will get you banned......convenient, as you guys are the ones checking the horses´ vital signs.

How do I know? I visit other sites that are also visited by ex ATS members, I have contacts outside of ATS with banned ATS members and so on....

And, the thread linked on this page was not closed for a good reason. A rant is a rant, the OP said it himself. There is no going in circles on a rant. A rant is to vent and people should be able to respond as much and as long as they want.

It was only closed because it was critical of the OP, while the OP was very critical, even impolite to a certain group of the ATS membership.

The way you make it sound like a rightious decision is exactly what I´m talking about.
edit on 14-4-2012 by RandomEsotericScreenname because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 08:34 PM
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The whining on this site never ceases to amaze me. Sometimes it feels like I'm trapped in a pre-school day care center where all the children are crying bloody murder, "What's mine is mine! What's yours is mine! Everything is mine, mine, mine! And if you don't give me what I want I'm going to stomp about and scream and shout and call you a bunch of names, umm, like this new word I learned; Hypocrite. Yeah! That's what I'll call you, a hypocrite. Take that ATS! That will teach you!"

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've heard it all before. In fact, I've heard it on a daily basis. Just line up to get your diapers changed. You'll feel better when you're not so wet and icky. But I'll tell ya what I'm gonna do. I will personally refund every dime any complainer has paid to ATS for the (cough) "right" to be here. Just send a receipt to me that proves you paid ATS cold hard cash, and you'll receive a complete refund, no questions asked.

Now, let's talk about this.

"My free speech rights are being violated by ATS!"

No, they are not. You don't have "free speech rights" at ATS. Must I explain it to you, again? How many friggin' times do we have to go over this? The First Amendment, in all its glory, enjoins Congress (and only Congress) from curtailing your rights to free speech. This means that you have the right to set up a soapbox in a public, tax-supported park and rail away about whatever you want. Have at it. But if someone throws an egg or a tomato at you, hey. That's free speech, too.

"It's not FAIR that I can't talk about whatever I want to!"

As any parent knows, "It's not fair" really means "I don't agree." If you do not agree with the rules of the house, move out. Start your own site. Many have tried. Many have failed. But go for it. Keep that spirit alive! If you're so smart and so right, you can't possibly fail!

"I generated this content. Without ME you are nothing, therefore this site is MINE!"

Actually, um, no. The posts you make here? They're still yours, but you granted ATS a non-exclusive right to do with them as they see fit. You gave your rights away when you signed up. And kids? This is legal. You signed a contract. You agreed to it. You're of sound mind and body, right? After all, every single one of you thinks he or she has a superior intellect. So it's not as if you didn't understand. You did so willingly. Too bad. Get over it.

Oh, and about this being YOUR site. That's laughable. You won't be missed if you leave. Trust me. Even if Phage left, people would just say, WTH happened to Phage? Oh, he left. OK. Next?

OK, so what should you do? I just have a simple suggestion. I humbly request that YOU concentrate on making posts and threads that are a) factually accurate, b) documented, and c) interesting to the rest of us so that we might all learn something together. That actually happens a fair amount around here. There's some real gold amongst the BS we have to wade through, which includes all the complainers doing their inevitable whining complaints. But as to those folks?

Go away, kid. You bother me.



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 08:43 PM
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reply to post by MESSAGEFROMTHESTARS
 


really ATS if you pride yourself on having an intelligent community than let us decide if we want to keep the discussion going, if its worth time to post a reply, shady indeed, and I totally feel for ya, only made that mistake once, and learned to let the be for a couple mins to make sure mods don't delete, lesson learned ;-(

ATS whom are You to determine the value of a thread?



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 08:46 PM
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reply to post by schuyler
 


Besides the condescending attitude, and the overwhelming arrogance of this post I do agree with this part of it:



OK, so what should you do? I just have a simple suggestion. I humbly request that YOU concentrate on making posts and threads that are a) factually accurate, b) documented, and c) interesting to the rest of us so that we might all learn something together. That actually happens a fair amount around here. There's some real gold amongst the BS we have to wade through, which includes all the complainers doing their inevitable whining complaints.


You are right. It is up to us, the blood of ATS, to keep the heart pumping.



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 09:02 PM
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Why not put the offending threads into an area where we have to click a button to say we wont be offended before we can view them?.

It does not matter what the subject is, if we cant talk about it that IS censorship.

I'm tea total so dont do any drugs. If I start a thread about the drug alcohol will it be removed?






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