Are geoengineering deniers acting immorally?

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posted on Apr, 15 2012 @ 07:31 PM
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reply to post by DerepentLEstranger
 




or what about the immorality of monsieur Poussin's stealing your idea from you and not giving you credit?


You've lost me here dude, who?



attempting to obtain samples from a suspected chemtrail/geo-engineering flight
in the manner proposed will bring about a violent response by those who have secrets to keep


Sounds like an excuse.

Let them respond, that would indicate that you're on the right track, as opposed to what's currently being done now which is gaining no reaction.




posted on Apr, 15 2012 @ 08:25 PM
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Excuse's,
from a industry that wants to control public opinion.
If they can control public opinion then they will achieve their goal,
of controlling the weather.
Geo-engineering begins with control of the public,
and then moves on to controlling the world,
and how people are allowed to interact with it.



posted on Apr, 15 2012 @ 08:26 PM
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I haven't had the opportunity to add to this thread today, but I'm stopping in just briefly to address those who are insisting on speaking about chemtrails.

The fact of the matter is is that persisting contrails are a factor when discussing the warming and cooling of the planet. As its been discussed before, geoengineers are also taking these persisting contrails into consideration during their conversations regarding climate change and modification.

The follwoing is worth a read:
www.contrails.nl...

NASA scientists have found that cirrus clouds, formed by contrails from aircraft engine exhaust, are capable of increasing average surface temperatures enough to account for a warming trend in the United States that occurred between 1975 and 1994.

" This result shows the increased cirrus coverage, attributable to air traffic, could account for nearly all of the warming observed over the United States for nearly 20 years starting in 1975, but it is important to acknowledge contrails would add to and not replace any greenhouse gas effect," said Patrick Minnis, senior research scientist at NASA's Langley Research Center in Hampton, Va. The study was published April 15 in the Journal of Climate. "During the same period, warming occurred in many other areas where cirrus coverage decreased or remained steady," he added.

" This study demonstrates that human activity has a visible and significant impact on cloud cover and, therefore, on climate. It indicates that contrails should be included in climate change scenarios," Minnis said.


To the member who posted info about Florida's current conditions, yes, wildfires have always been an issue for Florida, but it's been 5-7 degrees warmer than usual these past few months. Even though it is the dry season, it's unnaturally dry meaning that we should be at least getting SOME rainfall even though it isn't the rainy season until June.



posted on Apr, 15 2012 @ 08:36 PM
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Plus the mere fact,
that they have contrail forecast maps,
means that they are studying it.
They need to know when they can make contrails,
then study the data after the fact.
Unless they want to deny that they have contrail forecast maps,
and never verify if they are accurate, or its affects.



posted on Apr, 15 2012 @ 09:03 PM
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When you begin to build transportation vehicles as big, or bigger then dinosaurs,
mother nature has proved they will become extinct.
How warm was the planet when dinosaurs existed?
Why would men try to create something similar and not expect the same results,
then think that they could control it?
How many tons a day did the monsters need to eat,
How many tons a day do man made vehicles need?

I guess we are just a little mammals looking up,
Dinosaurs don't want hear what we have to say.



edit on 15-4-2012 by Gmoneycricket because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 15 2012 @ 09:09 PM
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Originally posted by Chadwickus
reply to post by pianopraze
 


Please, if you will:

So may I ask you, as someone who has caught them in the act, what method are they using anyway?

Is it stratospheric sulfur aerosols?

Or cloud reflectivity?

Or something else?

Please share!


Links are in my op if you care to look at them. Your side seems kind of lazy wanting us to provide all the info and refusing to look when we do provide the info.

There are more than my OP though, I will list a few more - phage of all people put me onto two more in a thread somewhere, one about affecting clouds at sea and one about iron at sea, but I have lost/can't find those links.

Another is this from a whistleblowers:
Here is the testimony of two pilots.

Qutch, I am not asking you to convince everyone all I am asking is some proof that GeoEngineering/ SRM flight are happening. You claim it is everyday of the week but can give no proof no photos of planes getting loaded, no increase in sulfur or other minerals that people want to use for GeoEngineering. I am not saying zero flights are taking place in fact in my post I said I know there are one off test flight happening.


Well, here it is. . I have absolute proof Gonzo . . Doug Taylor himself is flying them. . There is no more credible sauce source of information on JC than Doug Taylor.

Doug Taylor said: ↑
I have been sent on Chem Trail missions over the North Atlantic in advance of the G7 meetings.


So two pilots who have flown test geoengineering flights have come forward at least.

I can only prove computer modeling and small scale tests from the info I have seen so far. But modeling leads to small scale tests, which leads to large scale tests, which leads to implementation.

And we need to stop this poop now before they get to implementation.
edit on 15-4-2012 by pianopraze because: ...



posted on Apr, 15 2012 @ 09:15 PM
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reply to post by ProudBird
 


I did not say anything about contrails/chemtrails. You will have to look to others pushing that agenda.

If you are referring to the movie I noted I included it because it has primary source of geoengineers stating the dangers of geoengineering...

AGW is hogwash, we are at the peak of a natural warming period. The danger of increasing a few degrees is much less than going into another ice age which we are due for given historical models. Geoengineering on top of this could send us there much faster... which would lead to a lot of deaths... many many more than AGW even if you believe in it would cause.

Of course, many of the "elite" globalists are also pushing radical population reduction anyways. So it's win win for them... more money/less people... and loose/loose for us... less money/more deaths.

Geoengineering is insanity.



posted on Apr, 15 2012 @ 09:49 PM
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Originally posted by Chadwickus
reply to post by DerepentLEstranger
 



You've lost me here dude, who?


lol sorry there
monsieur Poussin [chick] or Poullet [chicken][pardon my french, or gaulish as it were]
went and made some anonymous blog using your proposal and then posted a thread claiming that chemmies are immoral, proudbird and co. stayed out of it [or were setting up there own blogs]







Sounds like an excuse.

Let them respond, that would indicate that you're on the right track, as opposed to what's currently being done now which is gaining no reaction.


why should i risk getting shot?
my point is that your [and Aloysius's re-fried version] is tantamount to proposing invading Dulce Base or Area 51 in order to prove that there are aliens hidden there?



Let them respond, that would indicate that you're on the right track, as opposed to what's currently being done now which is gaining no reaction.

lol the disbelief is strong ehh?
surely you're not so fed up with us you'd try and get us hurt? or sent to gitmo?


while i can't "prove" things based on info obtained using occult methods/sources...


i have figured out a way to scientifically prove beyond a shadow of any doubt the chemical composition of trails

for less than $3k of equipment

which i'm sorely lacking at the mo...
edit on 15-4-2012 by DerepentLEstranger because: (no reason given)
edit on 15-4-2012 by DerepentLEstranger because: fixed formatting



posted on Apr, 15 2012 @ 10:04 PM
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Originally posted by luxordelphi
reply to post by pianopraze
 

Seeing used to be believing and a picture used to be worth a thousand words. An eye-witness account in a missive to a senator or congressperson, as a concerned citizen, used to mean something. Today it seems like officialdom has decided that all it needs to do is deny, officially, and that makes it true and woe to anyone who notices anything different.

Are geoengineering deniers immoral?

immoral: definition and synonyms


1. violating moral principles; not conforming to the patterns of conduct usually accepted or established as consistent with principles of personal and social ethics. 2. licentious or lascivious.


bad, wicked, dissolute, dissipated, profligate. Immoral, abandoned, depraved describe one who makes no attempt to curb self-indulgence.


Yes, in answer to your question, it is immoral to pollute the skies for far from certain and possibly catastrophic results. It is immoral to deny that it's being done. It is particularly immoral to be so vested in a destructive agenda that those who innocently observe that the emperor has no clothes become the enemy. It is immoral to campaign for acceptance of bizarre phenomena as natural and usual. It is immoral to claim that the masses are ignorant and superstitious and therefore must be wrong in their observations of perversity, just like they were wrong for so many centuries about the priesthood. It is immoral for a corrupt government to style itself as an authority for what is observed. It is immoral to employ paid posters on internet sites to bash observation and it is immoral to knowingly participate thus aiding and abetting global catastrophe. It is immoral to turn a blind eye for temporary personal gain. It is immoral to condone in any way 'necessary evils' and to structure scenarios with 'acceptable collateral damage' while acting as steward of the public interest.


I agree with this there are thousands of pictures of man made clouds,
reflecting and blocking sunlight while holding heat in at night, which is Geo-engineering,
by man.



posted on Apr, 15 2012 @ 11:54 PM
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reply to post by DerepentLEstranger
 


Less than $3k is quite cheap really.

Considering what in the world are they spraying's budget was $50,000.

Could buy off real insiders with that I reckon AND carry out tests!



posted on Apr, 16 2012 @ 12:27 AM
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reply to post by pianopraze
 


You are being disingenuous here.....and for one purporting to be all "above board", I am embarrassed at the hypocrisy:


I did not say anything about contrails/chemtrails. You will have to look to others pushing that agenda.

If you are referring to the movie I noted I included it because it has primary source of geoengineers stating the dangers of geoengineering...


The "movie" that we both refer to is the junk film WITWATS (common abbreviation)......and, they are NOT primarily stating the "dangers" of geoengineering......except by loudly (and incorrectly) asserting that something IS being "sprayed" now, as we speak!! It's in the darn title for Pete's sake.

And, lest we forget another recent thread of yours, where the same claims of "chemtrails" were made, too??

Like I said.....you cannot "pretend" to be claiming only the "dangers" of geoengineering, when the evidence otherwise is readily available, and shows otherwise.


AGW?? I dunno....really, it is (so far) fairly minor in scope, and quite likely could be just the Earth's natural cycles at work. What['s interesting here is this:

YOU are convinced that AGW is bunk....fine. Let's go with that. By that logic, then all Human activity.....I.E., all of the pollution, burning of fossil fuels, alterations of the Earth's surface, etc, etc, are not having any significant effect on the climate of the Earth, on a global scale.....it is all perfectly "natural".

With that logic (let's presume for this thought exercise it is entirely correct), then how on Earth can a few airplanes making the occasional few dozen miles long contrails have an "effect" as claimed in all the hue and cry over so-called "chemtrails"??

Even....and get this.....even a few small-scale testing of geoengineering concepts, if and when performed, should also have a negligible effect.

Do you not see this yet?

In other words: Over a century of the Industrial Age of humanity, and now with over 7 Billion people 'contributing' in various ways, by your own opinion not having any affect (no 'AGW').....then how is it possible for a few minor tests, that may occur in future, to affect anything in a matter of months?

Where is the logic in that?

Finally, as to the studies being conducted into the possibilities of geoengineering projects....as I explained in my earlier post, this seems to be a situation of preparedness, at most. "Brainstorming" in many ways.....and, well....think about it: Gives people jobs, and stimulates economies worldwide too (I know, very very small segment of specialists involved, but still.....).

And, to make a comparison: Discussing and learning about the possible uses of "geoengineering" is a bit like discussing and experimenting with ways to mount a manned mission to Mars.....doesn't mean it's happening now.

But yes....futzing with the entire Earth's climate in a major, major way is something to give a person pause, and should not (and will not) be embarked upon willy-nilly. THIS also is very evident in the studies, and is part of the on-going discussions surrounding the science.

Or, did you 'conveniently' choose to ignore that aspect?



posted on Apr, 16 2012 @ 04:04 AM
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reply to post by ProudBird
 


I rewatched the film before I included it. There are several weathermen and geoengineers in there... Primary sources. It talks a lot about geoengineering and the dangers.

Your comments show you did not look at my source documents in the thread. I included both cfr and congressional testimony links from geoengineers. They all say this is dangerous. There is unanimous agreement to that fact. For you to say it is not is the only disingenuousness I see.

As to human pollution we have a major problem. Plastics are clogging our oceans and destroying the global ecosystems that might in the end kill us all.

I like how carlin puts this, carlin is my hero as always... Language warning with carlin...

edit on 16-4-2012 by pianopraze because: Autocorrect fun



posted on Apr, 16 2012 @ 04:48 AM
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reply to post by pianopraze
 


I know....and I TOO am a great fan of George Carlin. I (barely) met him on one of my flights, some years before he died.

No, he was not very approachable. It was, really, just a 'nod'.....celebrities, when they fly, tend to either crave attention, or spurn it. The Flight Attendants respond appropriately. When a "celebrity" wishes to not be disturbed, he or she is usually not disturbed.

My favorite (brief) encounter was Meryl Streep. She landed in San Diego (don't remember the date, was long ago), but was a long cross-country from the East Coast. She asked for nothing, and (as is sometime typical) slept and even covered her head, for the flight....but, when we arrived, I made it a point to get out of my seat and get to the cabin, to at least acknowledge her......I am a ...guess you's say "fan" of her work.....and, since she was in First Class, seat 2A well.....she was just at the forward door, and was in the Jetway, as I got there....so, I complimented her on a particular project she'd done, recently.....it was enough. (For me)....she turned, and said "Thanks"....

(the "project" was the HBO mini-series Angels in America

(Be warned....not sure it's your "cup of tea"...).....

But , that's it. I have always thought Ms. Streep to be deserving of applause.....but, as a private person, her personal space is also worthy of respect. As are all "celebrities"...who are, after all...just people......

BACK to George Carlin.....all the ^ ^ ^ applies there, in spades.....of course, in his "Hey Day"...if you pushed Mr. Carlin too far??? He'd likely let off a string of expletives in your direction.....but hey, who knows? Right??



posted on Apr, 16 2012 @ 06:31 AM
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reply to post by Gmoneycricket
 



Plus the mere fact,
that they have contrail forecast maps,
means that they are studying it.
They need to know when they can make contrails,
then study the data after the fact.
Unless they want to deny that they have contrail forecast maps,
and never verify if they are accurate, or its affects.


The military developed contrail forecast maps because contrails can reveal the heading of aircraft on military missions. If you're planning on making a bombing run, it is best to do it without contrails, Contrails forecasting is about avoiding making them.



posted on Apr, 16 2012 @ 06:40 AM
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reply to post by Gmoneycricket
 



I agree with this there are thousands of pictures of man made clouds,
reflecting and blocking sunlight while holding heat in at night, which is Geo-engineering,
by man.


Only in the sense that building a huge parking lot out of asphalt, which absorbs heat and makes the area warmer, is geo-engineering. Both are examples of human activity affecting the environment, yet neither is intentional. Geo-engineering is an intentional attempt to modify the Earth's climate in order to achieve a desired result. It is this lack of ability to discriminate between the intentional and unintentional that weakens the rhetoric of this campaign. It would be more effective to cite unintentional environmental damage that can be proven as a reason to ban future attempts at intentional environmental modification.



posted on Apr, 16 2012 @ 06:47 AM
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reply to post by pianopraze
 



AGW is hogwash, we are at the peak of a natural warming period.


This is only partially true. Carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas and the greenhouse effect is very real. The controversy over AGW is over the amount to which man-made CO2 is contributing to the secular warming trend.


The danger of increasing a few degrees is much less than going into another ice age which we are due for given historical models. Geoengineering on top of this could send us there much faster... which would lead to a lot of deaths... many many more than AGW even if you believe in it would cause.


Correct. This is one of the valid arguments against geo-engineering. The rest of your post is pure speculation.



posted on Apr, 16 2012 @ 06:50 AM
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reply to post by pianopraze
 



So two pilots who have flown test geoengineering flights have come forward at least.


You are citing a well known chemtrail hoax. Who is confusing the issue and undermining the cause now?



posted on Apr, 16 2012 @ 06:58 AM
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reply to post by thorfourwinds
 



However, what continues to amaze us is the easy access to derailing points that those same 'intrepid defenders of nothing is going on here' have in each and every thread about chemtrails or now, geoengineering."

If, in fact, nothing is going on, then how come peoples across the globe have provided photographs of 'anomalies' and formed groups to gather and share data about chemtrails and now, geoengineering?"

Would those same 'defenders' have us believe this is some planet-wide mass delusion that something is not right with our once-blue, once-pristine skies?


The UN SBSTTA is concerned with the potential dangers of geo-engineering. Once again, a reasonable objection to geo-engineering is drowned out by the willful distortions of chemtrail enthusiasts. Mass ignorance leads to mass delusion.



posted on Apr, 16 2012 @ 07:09 AM
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reply to post by Afterthought
 



I can assure you that the UN has invested millions of dollars on geoengineering in Africa. Whether or not you and I believe our wallets are helping pay for it is up for debate.


As pointed out above, the link you provide to the SBSTTA does not support your contention. It is well known that efforts are being made to control malaria and to improve agriculture through the use of GMO's. Neither of these involves geo-engineering.
edit on 16-4-2012 by DJW001 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 16 2012 @ 10:20 AM
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reply to post by DJW001
 


Wow. OK. You're taking this in a whole different route to dispel what I stated about geoengineering in Africa, which has nothing to do with malaria.

Since you refuse to do your own research, I'll help you up the stairs.
www.onlinebusinesslist.co.za...

About the China Geo-engineering Corporation

China Geo-engineering Corporation is located in 4 Protea Ave, Masvingo, South Africa. Company is working in Engineering business activities.

Hmm. I wonder why the company's description is so vague? I'll have to take the time later to look into this more closely.

Here's some more interesting reading (I've highlighted the cues):
openarchitecturenetwork.org...

In the coming decades reserves of fossil fuels are predicted to diminish, weakening the mobility and economic driving force of our societies.

This decline is set to occur at a time when the direct and indirect consequences of Climate Change will place unprecedented demands on our species capacity to adapt to a changing environment.

If we wish to achieve a sustainable future for humanity, new modes of living must be established which promote the efficient use of natural resources whilst preserving the environment upon which our survival depends.

In short, we must implement sustainable development on a global scale before it is too late.

Further to an extended period of research and development, FPS Ltd. have recently completed the full articulation of "The Fractal Matrix Planning System", a new model for development which has the potential to play a significant role in our efforts to establish sustainable patterns of urban development on a global scale.

The FMPS has the following key features;

- Applicable within any Environmental, Cultural or Economic context
- Capable of structuring settlements of any scale
- Generates efficient patterns of infrastructure at all stages of development
- Provides a clear framework for effective resource management
- Fosters the development of strong community relationships
- Establishes a new symbiotic relationship between our natural and built environment

Their key features seem a bit vague to me.

By the way, I wonder what all this money goes towards?
www.opic.gov...

1996

All OPIC Countries, All Countries
Name: AQUA PARTNERS LP
US Sponsor: Tarrant Partners
Type: Investment Funds
Description: Direct Equity Fund
$200,000,000

1996
All OPIC Countries, All Countries
Name: GLOBAL ENVIRONMENT EMERGING MARKETS FUND, II
US Sponsor: GEF Management Corporation
Type: Investment Funds
Description: Direct Equity Investment Fund
$80,000,000


Here's some more interesing reading:
www.scientificamerican.com...

Practical applications date to the Cold War, when both Russian and American military started seeding clouds in an attempt to induce rain. When President Lyndon Johnson was briefed about the dire effects of global warming, geoengineering was the only solution prescribed by his scientific advisors.


And some more:
allafrica.com...

'... geoengineering cannot be tested without full-scale implementation. The initial production of aerosol droplets can be tested on a small scale, but how they will grow in size (which determines the injection rate needed to produce a particular cooling) can only be tested by injection into an existing aerosol cloud, which cannot be confined to one location. Furthermore, weather and climate variability preclude observation of the climate response without a large, decade-long forcing. Such full-scale implementation could disrupt food production on large scale.'[10]


Here's a geoengineering fellowship advertised opening:
belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu... research_group_at_harvard_kennedy_school.html
edit on 16-4-2012 by Afterthought because: (no reason given)





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