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Nature is SO much better than puny humans!

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posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 05:27 PM
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OP - "Many times, in the last months, I've seen members say how much they despise humanity and how Mother Nature should do away with us, because we are such vile creatures on the face of the Earth."

You are right, the religious belief embraced by these folks indoctrinates them to view humans as parasites on the back of their 'mother earth', and with a belief such as this, they support any proposal that recommends the extermination of large segments of humanity. There are millions who subscribe to these beliefs, and by many accounts, so do many of our 'think tanks' and the leaders that follow them. Your videos are a reminder of what separates most humans from the animal kingdom - a God given CONSCIOUSNESS, the very same thing that these people unknowingly give up when they accept such beliefs.




posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 05:42 PM
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reply to post by freewestray
 





So someone who commits murder has morals?


Yes but severly warped ones its a dog eat dog world
Kill or be killed some people can not help it
It is part of our DNA primevil

Cran



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 06:06 PM
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its a sense of morality from a human perspective. Human mind can be AWARE - these beasts, creatures, and animal lifeforms know most of not what they do. They act mostly out of instinct.

All lifeforms can be trained. But hey, look at the world they live in from their perspective.



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 06:29 PM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 


Word, humans are something special on earth indeed. We could have made it a safe haven for everything on earth but whatever.. Money over everything.



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 06:03 AM
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And for a thousand of those videos, one could post a thousand more showing incredible compassion, benevolence and self-sacrifice on the part of animals. Then one could repeat both for humanity. It's well known animals can suffer from mental illness the same way we do, they are also powerfully driven by instinct but not completely. Mammals, at least, have similar emotional structure in the brain. I respect and love nature, but it remains highly dangerous in certain circumstances. Why would someone let these videos allow them to form an extremest point of view? What's with all the # nature lovers? Show me such beauty anywhere else in the solar system, or galaxy for that matter. And no luminous gas. But who are we to criticize animals if our superior minds cannot even treat each other right?



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 09:08 AM
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Don't know...doesn't beat this...




posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 11:40 AM
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reply to post by Sek82
 


I love cute animal videos too, and not the kind I posted in this thread.

You talk of machines, and for a long long time, I've been thinking that the ultimate robot would be biological. I guess others have said it before, but I've had this in my mind for a long time.

We need energy to function. We have lubricants in our joints, we have a cooling system, we generate heat, have gas exchanges, need to "vidange", etc. We have the same functions any machinery would have, all perspectives considered, and, just like a computer that runs Windows can, with little tweaks, run Mac OS's, our brains can, with little tweaks, too, be reprogrammed.

We are, just like the animals, biological machines, with the same basic set of programming. The expression of our different trait as species is the only real marker that differentiates us.

I say the animals and us are equal, in the end.

About the Earth, even she isn't at the top, when you look outside of it!


And yes, even flies bleed red. It shows when they are splattered...



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 11:54 AM
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Good thread, S&F!

There is little moral or good about nature. It simply is. And if "mother Earth" existed, she would be a psychopath by all standards.

Naturalistic fallacy

I cringe everytime I witness someone claiming that natural=good or unnatural=bad.



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 12:13 PM
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reply to post by Maslo
 


Thank you both for your words and the link!

I read a part of it already and I see that I have this problem with people around me when we talk about nature and the systems we see in it. They "accuse" me of supporting things like infanticide because I try to explain to them why a lion will kill the little ones of a female, without saying they are bad to do it.

It looks bad to us, of course, because it is not the way humans think of dealing with orphans, if we can equate the little lions to orphans, having only lost their "father". But in reality, many human societies abuse to death orphan kids. Even western society has only recently begun to take care of the kids in a fashionable way, and even that is debatable, to some degree...

Yes, nature is, but we also.



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 12:31 PM
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Originally posted by survival
its a sense of morality from a human perspective. Human mind can be AWARE - these beasts, creatures, and animal lifeforms know most of not what they do. They act mostly out of instinct.

All lifeforms can be trained. But hey, look at the world they live in from their perspective.


Do they really act only out of instinct?

Being aware and showing emotional responses to any given situation are two different things. We say a spider evades us because of self-preservation, but who's to say they do not feel fear, like we do in face of danger?

Some past experiences have shown even plants will display emotions that can be interpreted as fear. We say they react to music, is it only a mechanical response or do they feel something good out of it?

Since we are in a dualistic universe, I say it is a little bit of both, in equal parts. And we are subjected to the same rules, in similar proportions.



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 12:34 PM
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reply to post by dude69
 


Look again at the video of the hyena ripping the warthog's leg... It doesn't go for the kill, it plays with it by torturing it. Listen to the warthog's cries.

We and the animals are no worse nor better than the other. Only different expressions of the same underlying principle.



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 12:46 PM
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Ah yes......finally someone is starting to get it.. We are nothing more than mere animals whose herd population has reached critical mass. And what happens to a herd of animals when there is too many in any given area?

Disease, aggression, homosexuality (yes I went there because it is a natural occurring habit in nature when there is a large number of something in a enclosed area), food competition, starvation, mass death.....

Yes it is primal in it's genetics for we are only pretending to be civil.....that's not to say that we do not have the capability of actually becoming civil.....for now though we are merely going through the motions.

While nature does perpetrate some seriously grotesque assails on one another in the wild....understand humans do unto humans for much less a dismissible cause than this. We kill each other not for primal survival as depicted in your videos....but for selfish mide and petty differences. Thats what makes us better than the animal kingdom I guess.....the ability to slaughter our own for no good reason.

Animals do it for the balance of the natural world...we do it because homie has a nice pair of nikes that we want.



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 01:04 PM
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reply to post by BooKrackers
 


Well... There is the video of all the chimps killing the lone one...

And the fights to the death some animals go into so the Alpha remains alpha... Is it for balance or is it lust for the power the position gives? An Alpha WILL get the best.

Look again at how the buffaloes attack their Alpha, busy fighting a rhino.

Animals kill for the new Nike, also. We just refuse to see it, because it is despairing for us to consider, all anthropomorphism aside.

I've seen an experiment about cooperation with chimpanzees and after a few times, one ends up stealing everything without sharing, even if there is enough for all. Isn't that greed?
As I said at the end of the OP, researches on AI show the same results. One robot ends up using violence to take it all...

We're all the same.



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 01:35 PM
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Great thread and for sure will lead to many thoughts ...

Seki82 raised the point that we (humans) are also Nature.


Are humans not also nature?

Indeed, man is a part of Nature and not apart from Nature.

Shadow Herder


You forgot one important point to your collage of nature fighting. Even in the microscopic world nature is fighting. White t-cell fighting infection.


also identified the microscopic part of Nature but this is still only a minute part of all Nature. Is the biological world also not a part of nature? What about the geological world, and the …. oh lets just skip straight to it, the cosmic world?

Great black hole feeding on all that comes in range. Even galaxies clashing and consuming, being consumed or combining as their respective ranks in the galactic pecking order decrees.

The question is. Do these other aspects of Nature have a consciousness? Can they make conscious decisions that influence the flow of Nature. Do, to take the examples presented in this thread, animals make decisions based on any values that make them act in contrast to what we would like to believe is the beauty of Nature. There is another line of thought here relating to whether or not we can comprehend such actions that go against our specific value systems. More about that at another time.

Who are simply obeying, or are only able to obey the laws of physics, causality and instinct, and who are making conscious decisions about the way we interact with and influence Nature? Perhaps we should be doing the latter and accept that animals and other Nature entities do not have this option.

In one of my environments, participants of this activity are often told to learn to act instinctively. But this is not right. We as communal beings learn to deny out instincts in the interest of communal life. This is all about values that determine how we react to any threat or discomfort etc. Still, some do not have that option either as perhaps they never learned the values that guide our instincts, and then they react like the animal reactions that seem to us to be cruel. How we judge this depends on our understanding of the related circumstances.

Simple example. in a world war situation, everyday people end up killing other everyday people with equal value systems and even get decorated for these acts of violence. Right? Wrong? All needs to be seen in context.

looking forward to many more responses in this thread

KA

edit on 14-4-2012 by KenArten because: simple, respect for Nature



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 01:47 PM
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reply to post by KenArten
 


Your instinct served you well as I didn't expand into the mineral realm, but on that point, I side with Nicholas Tesla; He thought minerals were conscious at a level we could not comprehend.
Coming from the greatest mind ever, I feel confident in thinking minerals are alive and conscious.

Yes, like everything alive, the universe and its components can only be described using what we can relate to and can see as pretty similar, that is alive.

As I said above, ancients recognized consciousness for the animals, but also for everything else, giving birth to what we call pantheism. Spirit for this, spirit for that.

Science has thrown all that aside, but firemen will tell you, fire acts like a living organism, hiding and waiting...

We say we should not give animals or things human qualities, because it is anthropomorphism, but what if anthropomorphism is a set of general traits found in other species, and that we've come to think is exclusive to us?



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 02:04 PM
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reply to post by NowanKenubi
 


Enjoyed your response.

I also make no judgements about who (what?) has and who does not have consciousness. Indeed the sub-atomic world even tests that concept. It is how we define consciousness that needs questioning.

You said ...


Science has thrown all that aside, but firemen will tell you, fire acts like a living organism, hiding and waiting...

I wonder if the fire is just reacting to man's decisions and not its own will.

For me it keeps coming back to values and perhaps those relate to survival and that brings us back to instinctive behaviour. But we should be able to interact with this cycle and decide if what we do is best for us or best for Nature. That is a choice we can make. I am not sure whether other consciousnesses have or perhaps, choose to make that choice.

I used this example recently in a psychological context. If a tree is injured or disturbed in any way. It will try to heal itself. Is this being conscious, recognising the need to heal? Not sure. Is it a choice the tree makes to heal? Nor sure. We humans have that choice and some choose to stay unwell and other choose healing. Emotions are important here. Indeed, they are a wild card that can completely work against the logical and “correct” reaction. Do other consciousness react to emotions. Not sure?

But then, I do not mind not knowing, as it just leaves so much more to discover.



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 02:21 PM
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reply to post by KenArten
 


I enjoy your answers too!

About plants, their healing factors may boosted or downplayed by emotions, just like us. They may be susceptible to the Pavlov experiment.

I can't find a link for now, but observation and measurements have shown that plants, threes, are not only conscious of themselves, but also of others; in Africa, there is a three that, when it's leaves are eaten, will start secreting some stuff in the leaves that will harden like cement, in your stomach, leaving you the impression of always being full, making you die of starvation.
What has been measured is that threes of the same specie, that are not attacked, will start secreting the same stuff as the one located dozens of feet apart soon after the initial attack.

From my perspective, I can only admit to see that the attacked three is not only defending itself, but telling other threes to prepare already.
Like a chicken will tell other chickens what type of danger is seen, and from what direction it is coming.

It shows some sense of community.

Like you say, because of our respective commitments to society, we "erase" part of our own identities for the greater good, just like we see happens with ants or bees, two other social animals.
I had never seen that point that way, thanks!



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 02:23 PM
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Originally posted by NowanKenubi
Many times, in the last months, I've seen members say how much they despise humanity and how Mother Nature should do away with us, because we are such vile creatures on the face of the Earth.

When people get angry about things they see or hear or whatever, they get wild and overreact.

I've got angry a couple times about things. But I never wanted Mother Nature to destroy us. Instead the response is usually indifference. I know that most if not all of the behaviors in humans are in animals.

I was in a thread on another forum where there were posters in a thread describing how humanity should be destroyed. I understand their anger about some things, but I don't understand their nihilism.

I find myself sometimes thinking that our life on this planet would be better without the animals. Maybe earth should become our spaceship. Alternatively, we could migrate into space and transform asteroids into spaceships and allow the lifeforms on earth the chance to evolve as we have into more intelligent variants. As things are, humans dominate the planet and the rest of the animals are subservient to us. It would be easier to sleep at night knowing we'd given the animals on earth a chance at freedom.

All we need to remember is that we ourselves are animals and every animal below us on the pyramid is going through the motions just as we have. They're, in effect, us, but from a distant point in the past. If a more dominant lifeform had chosen to destroy us a million years ago because we were savage animals with no sophistication then we never would have become modern humans. If we kill off the life on this planet in pursuit of complete control of earth (the spaceship) then we're giving higher lifeforms than ourselves the green light to do the same to us at some point. It's about being critical of ourselves.
edit on 14-4-2012 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 02:27 PM
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Originally posted by jonnywhite
I find myself sometimes thinking that our life on this planet would be better without the animals. Maybe earth should become our spaceship. Alternatively, we could migrate into space and transform asteroids into spaceships and allow the lifeforms on earth the chance to evolve as we have. As things are, humans dominate the planet and the rest of the animals are subservient to us. It would be easier to sleep at night knowing we'd given the animals on earth a chance at freedom.
edit on 14-4-2012 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)


These are two opposite point of view!
Why do you feel we should get rid of the animals? They are part of a greater process, no?

Your second point is very interesting... Seeing ancient traces of technology, maybe something similar happened to us?...

I don't understand the desire for nihilism either... I think one needs to be deeply hurt to start thinking like that...



posted on Apr, 14 2012 @ 02:34 PM
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reply to post by NowanKenubi
 


Just want to add relative to


He thought minerals were conscious at a level we could not comprehend. Coming from the greatest mind ever, I feel confident in thinking minerals are alive and conscious.

Not sure if this is off topic, but sure it is still well enough connected to be relevant. It certainly involves humans, their decisions and influences on Nature.

I have a serious problem with one aspect, that of crystals, in this sense meaning the trinket type offered and used in holistic venues and practices.

No problem with the energy and even possible consciousness of crystals. My concern is with the life of that crystal. One sees then offered everywhere, ripped roughly from Mother Earth's bosom and even “repaired” with false faces that clearly do not match the crystal's natural structure. But it is certainly possible that geological activity can as also do all this as well and present crystals that have a (supposedly) more natural birth into the world of humans. Again, it is the values related to the actions that delivered these crystals to the ultimate “owner” that need examining. Does that crystal not arrive complete with the scars of its birth? Will the natural birth be more in tune with the Tao than a human-made birth? In this context, are the human actions also part of Nature or a choice to act against Nature?

I respect gifts from Nature, offered to me along my path through life, not stolen from Nature ...

KA



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