Sea dispute escalates as China and the Philippines deploy more warships

What's the name of that Russian economist and scholar that predicted the US and China will go to war, and the US will be divided into 4 or 6 countries? California being the largest in the middle, east cost EU, north Canadian, west Oriental, and south Mexican.

He said the USA will definatly collapse, as their economy is due to in the next 10 or so years.

Talk of the currency "Amiro" indicates it also.

Bare in mind the recent reports stating there are 10,000 Chienese military personal spotted somewhere in mexico, yet to be confirmed.

I made a thread the other day about the National Defence Universities out look for the US in the 20 years.

And it aint looking good, not at all.

It spoke of:

The power shift from the "west" to the "rest"

That Russia and America will not be the 2 superpowers (nuclear wise).

They need to focus on preventing a 2nd nuclear age, and a costly nuclear exspansion of space platforms.

America need to revise their aggresive foreign policy, and revert to (nice) tactics.

America need to "redeem" them selves in the eyes of the world.

Massivly decrease their *unsustainable* defence budget.

Build bridges with the middle east and fix its economic and energy crisis.


So that's the American out look on it, courtisy of the NDU, INSS, without the unknown variables of other countries like China.

Sorry I can't link anything I'm on my phone, if that interested u, please see my realated thread by viewing profile.

I'm a Filipino and I'm really worried about the situation. Philippines was at war with Spain, America, Japan ever since 1500-1945, it experienced too much killing already and still at war with terrorist in its southern part. It was once a rich country, now it is so poor policeman even needs to buy their own ammunition.

I'm really pissed of with China, China's claim includes almost the entire South China Sea. They keep on bullying other Nations! They don't care at other country s Sovereignty! The disputed Islands are so close to the Philippines. They don't want the issue to be brought up in International courts because they knew they will not win.

Vietnam and Philippine soldiers are trying to cooperate with each other against the Chinese, I read that they are even playing basketball in the disputed islands to help tighten relations.

See the map in this article on how stupid China is in claiming everything.
www.bbc.co.uk...


This is a quote from a Chinese General
And earlier this month, Luo Yuan, a hawkish Chinese general, wrote in the state-run Global Times newspaper that the Philippines was facing its "last chance" to resolve its sovereignty issues.
"The biggest miscalculation of the Philippines is that it has misestimated the strength and willpower of China to defends its territorial integrity," he wrote.
www.bbc.co.uk...

Originally posted by ~Vixen~

Originally posted by BobAthome
reply to post by ~Vixen~

 

As presidentof the usa for instance u want too take that chance,,

that the American subs are not already there?


and i know their nuclear....right or wrong?
about them being nuclear,, and now invisible too,,
too chinese raidar for instance,,,
ya,,ok,,,

but thats the NukeGame,,,will they???
or will they not??

tick tock
tick tock,,

has the clock moved???

Me

What? This is near the Philippines, thousands of miles away from the US. The US isn't going to risk conflict with the Chinese to defend a Filipino fishing ground. THAT would be insane.

The Filipino fleet wouldn't last 3 minutes once conflict began and missiles started flying. They know that, which is why I said that they will work it out.

Edit to answer question:
The Chinese do have nukes, so yes. The Filipinos don't. The US isn't a party to the dispute, so us having a presence there is irrelevant.

edit on 4/13/2012 by ~Vixen~ because: (no reason given)

BRo it is not only a "fishing ground", It is an OILFIELD!!!!

The exact size of the deposits is not yet known, but according to a frequently cited estimate by China’s Geology and Mineral Resources Ministry, the region around the Spratly Islands holds oil and natural gas reserves of approximately 17.7 billion tons. If this figure is correct, the area would form the fourth largest reserve bed in the world.
hir.harvard.edu...

reply to post by WinnieDaWho


Not to mention the Us has mutual aid treaties in place for a lot of the Asian coumtries who are finding themselves at a cross roads with China, including the Phillipines.

I read an article a few weeks ago (I will try and find it) that discussed the Phillipines reconsidering the possibility of allowing a US military presence back on the island to the extent we had the first time around.

Originally posted by WinnieDaWho
BRo it is not only a "fishing ground", It is an OILFIELD!!!!

The exact size of the deposits is not yet known, but according to a frequently cited estimate by China’s Geology and Mineral Resources Ministry, the region around the Spratly Islands holds oil and natural gas reserves of approximately 17.7 billion tons. If this figure is correct, the area would form the fourth largest reserve bed in the world.

Let's start off with clarifying that some ATS members, like myself, are older women/grandmothers, and take offense at being referred to as "bro."

Fishing ground or oil field, the Chinese weren't actively pursuing acquisition of the area when this incident began, and based on the current political field, I still believe that a political solution will resolve the issue before it escalates into a shooting war.

If shooting begins the Philippines is screwed and the government there knows it.

Originally posted by Xcathdra

I read an article a few weeks ago (I will try and find it) that discussed the Phillipines reconsidering the possibility of allowing a US military presence back on the island to the extent we had the first time around.

i.e. kick the US to the curb until you need us to protect money making resources. Am I the only one that finds this offensive?

Personally speaking, I feel that when they decided to kick us out, we should have nullified the defense treaty.

reply to post by ~Vixen~


It is just a possibility, I'm pretty sure that Filipinos would not allow the US bases back, they are tired of Foreign occupations. That is why even they knew that China will kick Philippines arse, they would continue to fight in any possible way.

Filipinos had enough of foreign occupations, China is a powerful force, but not an exception.

reply to post by ~Vixen~


Yes you would be the only one who finds that offensive. TheSovereign nation of the Phillipines is free to run their country as they see fit. Up to and including terminating any treaties with the US that allowed us to station military assetts in their nation.

Times change and countries mature, like the Phillipines did. They have a different government in place than when the US was asked to leave. Holding an entire nation responsible for the actions of one administration makes no sense and in the long term serves no purpose.

The US is not going to have issues with the Phillipines warming relations back up with the US because of China. In the long term dealing withthe Phillipines is more productive than dealing with China on a conquest binge.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
The US is not going to have issues with the Phillipines warming relations back up with the US because of China. In the long term dealing withthe Phillipines is more productive than dealing with China on a conquest binge.

China on a conquest binge?

Did China invade this atoll to initiate this standoff, or was it started by a Philippine vessel stopping Chinese fishing boats? There is no conquest, simply a dispute of claim to that area. The Chinese feel they're within their rights to fish in an area their country says is theirs. The Filipinos dispute that.

If anyone is on a conquest binge, it's our own country.

As an American, I feel that the US was jerked around by the Filipino government back in the 90's. Now that they're digging themselves into a hole and biting off more than they can chew, it's time to ask for the US to cover their butts because they're coming to the gross realization that they can't do it all themselves.

While better relations are positive, the cost of their indecision will eventually have to be absorbed by the US taxpayer if we are to re-establish military bases in the Philippines.

reply to post by ~Vixen~


China is on a conquest binge.... for resources. It is only a matter of time before an escalation occurs, like with China and the Philippines, and one side decides not to blink and go for the gold.

Chinese naval vessels confronted Inian naval vessels on a port call to Vietnam. While in international waters Chinese naval vessels challenged the reason for their presence.

On the off chance you are not aware, China lays claim to the entire South China Sea. They are interpreting a UN law called Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ). An EEZ is applied to nations who have a board with a large body of water (lake / ocean). That EEZ allows a nation to lay claim to resources within their EEZ. China however apply s the EEZ as territorial instead of resource, challenging foreign naval vessels in what is actually International Waters.

Philippines were in the right on this one, and China is only going to become more aggressive. Also, there are about 6 million other I hate the US threads so feel free to join one of those if you choose. This thread is about Philippines and China.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by ~Vixen~

 

China is on a conquest binge.... for resources. It is only a matter of time before an escalation occurs, like with China and the Philippines, and one side decides not to blink and go for the gold.

Chinese naval vessels confronted Inian naval vessels on a port call to Vietnam. While in international waters Chinese naval vessels challenged the reason for their presence.

On the off chance you are not aware, China lays claim to the entire South China Sea. They are interpreting a UN law called Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ). An EEZ is applied to nations who have a board with a large body of water (lake / ocean). That EEZ allows a nation to lay claim to resources within their EEZ. China however apply s the EEZ as territorial instead of resource, challenging foreign naval vessels in what is actually International Waters.

Philippines were in the right on this one, and China is only going to become more aggressive. Also, there are about 6 million other I hate the US threads so feel free to join one of those if you choose. This thread is about Philippines and China.

If this incident was intentional, then I *may* agree that this could be construed as an act of conquest, however my interpretation of the circumstances is, respectfully, at odds with yours. I'm not an expert on international law, but absent a conclusive ruling, each party, in my opinion, has a claim to that region, just based on different philosophies.

As far as me hating the US you couldn't be more wrong. I've served this country, as have my sons, my husband, father, brothers, cousins and grandfathers. Being an American means standing up for what is right, even if it is at odds with current political policies. Part of being an American is understanding and supporting the concept of freedom of speech, even if you don't agree with what's being said. Being an American doesn't describe one with blind allegiance, but rather one that is willing to voice their opinions in defense of liberty regardless of circumstance. Don't lecture me for derailing the thread, you brought up my "anti American" stance first, I'm simply providing a response and food for thought.

Originally posted by ~Vixen~
If this incident was intentional, then I *may* agree that this could be construed as an act of conquest, however my interpretation of the circumstances is, respectfully, at odds with yours. I'm not an expert on international law, but absent a conclusive ruling, each party, in my opinion, has a claim to that region, just based on different philosophies.

The actions of the Chinese and the Phillipines were intentional. Chinese fisherman refused to allow the phillipines naval unit to amke an arrest and Chinese surveillance vessels prevented access to the area by blocking the opening. China is stating the area is theirs when in fact it belons to the Phillipines.

As far as Chinese claims to the region it is numerous. The wiki article alone shows just the land / sea claims without resource attachments. China has gone so far recently to "re-claim" territory they ceded in the past to other nations. Currently they are trying to retake territory via posturing and its only a matter of time before it moves beyond to action.

Originally posted by ~Vixen~
As far as me hating the US you couldn't be more wrong. I've served this country, as have my sons, my husband, father, brothers, cousins and grandfathers. Being an American means standing up for what is right, even if it is at odds with current political policies. Part of being an American is understanding and supporting the concept of freedom of speech, even if you don't agree with what's being said. Being an American doesn't describe one with blind allegiance, but rather one that is willing to voice their opinions in defense of liberty regardless of circumstance. Don't lecture me for derailing the thread, you brought up my "anti American" stance first, I'm simply providing a response and food for thought.

Fair enough.. I took the comment as uneeded since it had nothing to dow ith the topic. I get annoyed when people ignore the topic by invoking "America did or does this or that". It serves no purpose, in my opinion anyways, which is why I opened my mouth. No oeffense was intended towards you personally.. Based on other threads ive been in that type of comment comes up routinely.

American actions in Iraq or Afghanistan have no bearing on China or the Phillipines - which was my point.

Respects

Originally posted by ~Vixen~

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by ~Vixen~

 

China is on a conquest binge.... for resources. It is only a matter of time before an escalation occurs, like with China and the Philippines, and one side decides not to blink and go for the gold.

Chinese naval vessels confronted Inian naval vessels on a port call to Vietnam. While in international waters Chinese naval vessels challenged the reason for their presence.

On the off chance you are not aware, China lays claim to the entire South China Sea. They are interpreting a UN law called Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ). An EEZ is applied to nations who have a board with a large body of water (lake / ocean). That EEZ allows a nation to lay claim to resources within their EEZ. China however apply s the EEZ as territorial instead of resource, challenging foreign naval vessels in what is actually International Waters.

Philippines were in the right on this one, and China is only going to become more aggressive. Also, there are about 6 million other I hate the US threads so feel free to join one of those if you choose. This thread is about Philippines and China.

If this incident was intentional, then I *may* agree that this could be construed as an act of conquest, however my interpretation of the circumstances is, respectfully, at odds with yours. I'm not an expert on international law, but absent a conclusive ruling, each party, in my opinion, has a claim to that region, just based on different philosophies.

As far as me hating the US you couldn't be more wrong. I've served this country, as have my sons, my husband, father, brothers, cousins and grandfathers. Being an American means standing up for what is right, even if it is at odds with current political policies. Part of being an American is understanding and supporting the concept of freedom of speech, even if you don't agree with what's being said. Being an American doesn't describe one with blind allegiance, but rather one that is willing to voice their opinions in defense of liberty regardless of circumstance. Don't lecture me for derailing the thread, you brought up my "anti American" stance first, I'm simply providing a response and food for thought.

The new story is China rejected AGAIN the offer for peacefull diplomatic solution.
m.yahoo.com...

Originally posted by WinnieDaWho

The new story is China rejected AGAIN the offer for peacefull diplomatic solution.
m.yahoo.com...

Sorry, but I really believe that the "spin" employed by that source destroys it's legitimacy as an unbiased news source. The title says "China deploys gunboat to disputed shoal" Another article describes it as a "powerful military vessel..."

What is this awesome military vessel they speak of? It's a fisheries patrol ship with no fixed armaments. This entire case is being unnecessarily hyped, and reeks of media spin.

If this Chinese patrol ship and the Philippine navy start shooting each other up, they'll both probably run out of ammo before anything is sunk.

Originally posted by ~Vixen~

Originally posted by WinnieDaWho

The new story is China rejected AGAIN the offer for peacefull diplomatic solution.
m.yahoo.com...

Sorry, but I really believe that the "spin" employed by that source destroys it's legitimacy as an unbiased news source. The title says "China deploys gunboat to disputed shoal" Another article describes it as a "powerful military vessel..."

What is this awesome military vessel they speak of? It's a fisheries patrol ship with no fixed armaments. This entire case is being unnecessarily hyped, and reeks of media spin.

If this Chinese patrol ship and the Philippine navy start shooting each other up, they'll both probably run out of ammo before anything is sunk.

It is useless talking to someone who don't care about evdence, don't care
about news articles, and never even do some research. Cause all they care about is their own pathetic opinion.

Originally posted by BobAthome
reply to post by ~Vixen~

 

As presidentof the usa for instance u want too take that chance,,

that the American subs are not already there?


and i know their nuclear....right or wrong?
about them being nuclear,, and now invisible too,,
too chinese raidar for instance,,,
ya,,ok,,,

but thats the NukeGame,,,will they???
or will they not??

tick tock
tick tock,,

has the clock moved???

Me.

edit on 13-4-2012 by BobAthome because: (no reason given)

'As president of the USA' this is none of your $*#@ business. The US sticking it's hands in issues everywhere is one of the biggest reasons it is hated.

Originally posted by WinnieDaWho

It is useless talking to someone who don't care about evdence, don't care
about news articles, and never even do some research. Cause all they care about is their own pathetic opinion.

What evidence? All you provided were links to biased news articles in support of your viewpoint.

My *pathetic opinion* (based on my many years as a US Navy Intelligence officer (Really) disputes many of the statements in your articles. The writers of those articles are absolutely clueless in regards to many of the points they choose to "inform" people about, and their attempt to make the Chinese look like a threat to Philippine autonomy is blatantly obvious for those who can see through the disinformation.

Your articles describe a"powerful Chinese military gunboat." That's just not true.

Yuzheng-310 is operated by the Chinese Fisheries administration, (Under the Ministry of Agriculture, not the Chinese military) has a manual 37mm mount, a 14.5mm machine gun mount and a water cannon. Max speed is 22 kts. (25 mph) It's main gun is manual, so the firing rate is slow.

compare that to:

BRP Gregorio del Pilar (Philippine Navy frigate, formerly a US Coast Guard WHEC) has an automated 76mm deck cannon, 25mm chain gun, (2) 20mm guns and (6) 50 cal mounts. It's max speed is 28 kts. (32 mph) It's main gun is capable of firing up to 80 rounds per minute.

The Chinese didn't send their military, they sent a Fisheries Administration ship to resolve a fisheries dispute. You're blowing this WAY out of proportion by swallowing the lies fed to you by your media sources.

I won't touch on the issue of ownership of the area because I'm not familiar with international law as it applies to this case, however I do know that the Chinese have claimed that area for many years, and thus have at least some justification for being there. Being closer to the Philippines doesn't automatically make it theirs, but again, this is an area where the politicians and international courts need to work it all out.

Philippines-China standoff could spin out of hand

It started like many other minor confrontations over the specks of isles dotting some of the world's busiest shipping lanes. But the risks in the latest flare-up over a South China Sea shoal are much bigger than the territory itself.

and

HOW IT STARTED:

The Philippine navy says it caught Chinese fishermen poaching, and on April 10 two Chinese vessels moved in to protect them. The fishing boats slipped away, leaving behind a tense standoff with each side hoping the other will pull out first.

HISTORY OF FLASHPOINTS:

The shoal is among 200 islands, coral outcrops and banks spread over the South China Sea, with rich fishing grounds and other resources. The biggest of them are the Spratlys, claimed all or in part by the Philippines, China, Taiwan, Malaysia, Brunei and Vietnam.

There have been sporadic shootouts at sea in the past few decades — China-Vietnam, China-Philippines, Taiwan-Vietnam and Philippines-Vietnam — with navies sinking ships and fortifying disputed islands. A major clash in 1988 between China and Vietnam killed 64 Vietnamese soldiers. China took over the Philippine-occupied Mischief Reef in a surprise mini-invasion in 1995.

Then in 2002, all parties agreed to a status quo.

It largely held. Until now.


Read more: www.foxnews.com...

The cause of the problem - China

OVERLAPPING CLAIMS:

Scarborough Shoal lies within Manila's 370-kilometer (230-mile) exclusive economic zone, recognized under the U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea. But China says the Philippines is misinterpreting the law. Beijing's position is based on ancient maps, though it's unclear how much weight they carry today.

China's map submitted to the U.N. in 2009 claims virtually the entire South China Sea, but Beijing has failed to clarify the exact extent of its claims. It turned down a Philippine invitation for international arbitration.


Read more: www.foxnews.com...

Click link for remainder of indepth info.

I really want to post on this but work gets in the way. When I do write tons of material on this, you could bet that I'm already unemployed.

Anyway, this is really getting out of hand and scary. What seemed to be sabre rattling at first is now escalating into an internet cyber war with further saber rattling in the seas. Philippine pump boats are no match for Chinese war ships. 2Billion people versus 100Million.

Get real, the odds are in China's favor. America can't do much cause of their tie ups with China. hundred trillion dollar loans and crap. How about this conversation:

America: DO not lay a finger on our ally.
China: Stay away from Iran. You already did Iraq, Libya, and the rest. That's the last straw.
America: This means war! But I can't cause I need your cheap Nike shoes.
China: Which reminds me, pay up.
America: I hear the weather's nice in Maui this time of year.

I'm surprised all those Southeast Asia and South Pacific contries haven't formed an alliance of sorts. If Indonesia, Malaysia, Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Vietnam, Phillipines, Taiwan, Papua New Guinea, etc. all teamed up... Considering the people, their history, and economics, it would be quite a formidable thing.

But they'd rather squabble amongst themselves over other disputes, instead of putting aside petty differences in order to stand up to a mutual problem. It makes them all weak from a military perspective. Thus China keeps the upper hand in these kind of disputes.