Substitutionary sacrifical atonement: Is it moral?

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
That's bad Physics. We live in the time domain, God lives outside of it. Judas was prophesied to betray Jesus, but Judas was still responsible for his actions.

Does god live outside of our reality? If not, then he lives within a time domain.

Well, it's hard to instruct you in E=mc^2 in a forum thread on ATS, but briefly God inhabits eternity, there is no time outside the time domain. The past, present, and the future are a persistent illusion we experience in the time domain, God created it, therefore He resides outside of it. Time is a physical property. It's not uniform.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Well, it's hard to instruct you in E=mc^2 in a forum thread on ATS, but briefly God inhabits eternity, there is no time outside the time domain. The past, present, and the future are a persistent illusion we experience in the time domain, God created it, therefore He resides outside of it. Time is a physical property. It's not uniform.

Does he, or does he not exist in our reality? If so, there is always a point of reference somewhere for time. If he doesn't exist within time, why did he use time references in creation?

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
The God of the Bible is how I define morality, it's what I appeal to. I cannot appeal to myself then we'd all have a different standard and definition of morality. That's the huge self-refuting nature of moral relativism.

My brain doesn't operate like that.

So, can you own a person as your property? What does the bible say?

OT or NT? Bought slave or a bond servant? You gotta be precise.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
The God of the Bible is how I define morality, it's what I appeal to. I cannot appeal to myself then we'd all have a different standard and definition of morality. That's the huge self-refuting nature of moral relativism.

My brain doesn't operate like that.

So, can you own a person as your property? What does the bible say?

OT or NT? Bought slave or a bond servant? You gotta be precise.

Doesn't matter, what does the bible say?

God gave himself willingly. There is nothing immoral about this issue in any way what so ever.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Well, it's hard to instruct you in E=mc^2 in a forum thread on ATS, but briefly God inhabits eternity, there is no time outside the time domain. The past, present, and the future are a persistent illusion we experience in the time domain, God created it, therefore He resides outside of it. Time is a physical property. It's not uniform.

Does he, or does he not exist in our reality? If so, there is always a point of reference somewhere for time. If he doesn't exist within time, why did he use time references in creation?

Dude, that makes for flowery poetry, but it's terrible Physics. Here is how it reads to me if it were a math problem and you'll maybe understand;

If X is 67.7 and blue is catfish, how many pickles are 452/67 and the 3 dogs in a HC.567.

Originally posted by milkyway12
God gave himself willingly. There is nothing immoral about this issue in any way what so ever.

Is it moral for you to allow someone else to take your punishment? Who cares if they volunteer?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Dude, that makes for flowery poetry, but it's terrible Physics. Here is how it reads to me if it were a math problem and you'll maybe understand;

If X is 67.7 and blue is catfish, how many pickles are 452/67 and the 3 dogs in a HC.567.

I don't see how it equivocates with that. You say god exists in eternity, where is that exactly? I suppose I don't understand what you're saying.

reply to post by Hydroman


Yes. If some one willingly volunteers to shed his life to save mine? That is self sacrifice beyond words and it is completely within their judgement to die for me or not. There is nothing wrong for not dying for me and there is nothing wrong for dying for me.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
The God of the Bible is how I define morality, it's what I appeal to. I cannot appeal to myself then we'd all have a different standard and definition of morality. That's the huge self-refuting nature of moral relativism.

My brain doesn't operate like that.

So, can you own a person as your property? What does the bible say?

OT or NT? Bought slave or a bond servant? You gotta be precise.

Doesn't matter, what does the bible say?

Okay, um, yes and no, and if yes, then no if more than 7 years later, and if no, if yes then they can for life as a duty and out of love.

Better?


I strongly suggest being precise. OT or NT? Bought and paid for slave or a bond servant (dulos)?

Originally posted by milkyway12
Yes. If some one willingly volunteers to shed his life to save mine? That is self sacrifice beyong words and it completely within their judgement to die for me or not.

So, you did a crime and deserve to be punished for it. You would allow someone else to take your punishment? That would be moral of you? Do you see what I'm asking?

reply to post by Hydroman


If he voluntarily took it and i had no choice? Yes. That is completely moral.

I don't see how that point can even be argued.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Dude, that makes for flowery poetry, but it's terrible Physics. Here is how it reads to me if it were a math problem and you'll maybe understand;

If X is 67.7 and blue is catfish, how many pickles are 452/67 and the 3 dogs in a HC.567.

I don't see how it equivocates with that. You say god exists in eternity, where is that exactly? I suppose I don't understand what you're saying.

EXACTLY! That's how your questions read to me, you don't grasp Einstein's General Theory of Relativity. (1916)

Eternity there is not time, it's an illusion, we appear to be in a linear timeline because we are bound in the 4 dimensions. God isn't. Let me ask you, is God bound by the limitations of mass? Gravity? Velocity?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Okay, um, yes and no, and if yes, then no if more than 7 years later, and if no, if yes then they can for life as a duty and out of love.

Better?


I strongly suggest being precise. OT or NT? Bought and paid for slave or a bond servant (dulos)?

It doesn't matter if it's OT or NT. Can you own somebody? Doesn't matter how the transaction took place. Is it moral to own someone else as your property. Simple question. You seriously have to question whether it is OT or NT and how the transaction took place etc. to determine if it is moral? I don't have to do that. IMO, it is immoral to own someone else as your property, even if it is out of duty and love.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
EXACTLY! That's how your questions read to me, you don't grasp Einstein's General Theory of Relativity. (1916)

Eternity there is not time, it's an illusion, we appear to be in a linear timeline because we are bound in the 4 dimensions. God isn't. Let me ask you, is God bound by the limitations of mass? Gravity? Velocity?

Doesn't Einstein's Theory of Relativity deal with motion being observed by two or more points where one point may be stationary and the other moving?

Do you mean to say that your god exists outside of our reality? If you say "yes" then to me, he isn't real if he exists outside of our reality. I mean, how do you differentiate your god from something that doesn't exist?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Let me ask you, is God bound by the limitations of mass? Gravity? Velocity?

Define god. What is it?

reply to post by Hydroman


Damn you're difficult.

OT:

1. If a person owed a debt, they could sell themselves into slavery to pay off the debt.
2. If a person needed ca loan they could offer their male children as collateral to the lender and the lender could come and take them if the borrower didn't pay.
3. A poor person could enter slavery instead of starving to death on the streets a free man.
4. Slaves were to be freed every jubilee year in Israel, pagan nations had no such luxury.
5. Slaves were often taken as a spoil of war.

NT:

1. A bond-servant was one who chose to serve for life with the family after being released if they chose to, if they loved the family.
2. The Bible strictly forbids stealing a person and selling them into slavery or buying a slave stolen for the purpose of selling them for slavery.


Better? Their culture was way before the modern idea of a "slave" where people were just stolen taken to another nation and sold like cattle, that variety is not allowed at all.

Originally posted by milkyway12
If he voluntarily took it and i had no choice? Yes. That is completely moral.

I don't see how that point can even be argued.

You don't have a choice? That's cool, I guess we're all going to heaven.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Damn you're difficult.

Sorry.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
OT:

1. If a person owed a debt, they could sell themselves into slavery to pay off the debt.
2. If a person needed ca loan they could offer their male children as collateral to the lender and the lender could come and take them if the borrower didn't pay.
3. A poor person could enter slavery instead of starving to death on the streets a free man.
4. Slaves were to be freed every jubilee year in Israel, pagan nations had no such luxury.
5. Slaves were often taken as a spoil of war.

Hmmm, this is where humanity failed. You should help out your fellow man, not own them for life as if they are obligated to be your property because you helped them. That is immoral. Help them freely. Forgive their debts if necessary. The only slaves taken as spoils of war by the Hebrews were virgins. Anyway, would that be ok for us to take slaves after we fight our wars? According to your bible, yes?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
NT:
1. A bond-servant was one who chose to serve for life with the family after being released if they chose to, if they loved the family.
2. The Bible strictly forbids stealing a person and selling them into slavery or buying a slaves stolen for the purpose of selling them for slavery.


Better? Their culture was way before the modern idea of a "slave" where people were just stolen taken to another nation and sold like cattle, that variety is not allowed at all.

Now, reading your responses, is it ok to own someone as your property according to the bible? I mean, a bond servant was the master's property until he was released, right?

I guess it's a good thing for you that there is a bible, so that you can tell right from wrong, immorality from morality, right? Jeez, if you lived 4000 years ago, you wouldn't know what was good or bad. Thankfully you were born in this time.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
EXACTLY! That's how your questions read to me, you don't grasp Einstein's General Theory of Relativity. (1916)

Eternity there is not time, it's an illusion, we appear to be in a linear timeline because we are bound in the 4 dimensions. God isn't. Let me ask you, is God bound by the limitations of mass? Gravity? Velocity?

Doesn't Einstein's Theory of Relativity deal with motion being observed by two or more points where one point may be stationary and the other moving?

That's the Special, it came before the General (1916). I'm talking about E=mc^2, dealing with the nature of time.

Do you mean to say that your god exists outside of our reality?

Not exactly, He isn't bound by our 4 dimensions. He existis in all dimensions, but is bound by none of them. The current understanding is we live in 10+. The 3 spacial dimensions and spacetime the 4th is what we call "reality", but we cannot see the other 6 because they exist in strings smaller than a particle of light. We can only perceive them by indirect means.

Had enough Chinese yet? God exists outside time, He exists in eternity. There is no such thing as time in eternity it doesn't exist. Time is an illusion.

If you say "yes" then to me, he isn't real if he exists outside of our reality.

Absurd! You'd fail the Physics exam and be laughed out of the classroom.

I mean, how do you differentiate your god from something that doesn't exist?

God does exist, that's an absurd question to me. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Let me ask you, is God bound by the limitations of mass? Gravity? Velocity?

Define god. What is it?

For sake of argument a spirit being.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

We live in the time domain, God lives outside of it.

You just think so, probably because someone else had that theory and told you.
It does not come from the Bible or any ancient religious system or philosophy.