Originally posted by Violater1
Back in the 2000, I was treating a submariner for, a medical malady.
He told me that working in the communications area of the sub, he tracked an underwater object ( by satellite) that was over 1000 feet deep, going over 500 kph, and was three times larger than an aircraft carrier.edit on 12-4-2012 by Violater1 because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by Kandinsky
reply to post by karl 12
It'd be great to spend some time in one of those big sightings years like 1947, 1954 and this one...1952. I sort of get wistful for those days when people only had about 3 possibilities for what it was all about.
1 - Hoaxes
2 - Foreign technology
3 - Extraterrestrials
Radar-Visual Sightings Establish UFOs As A Serious Mystery
The summer 1952 UFO sighting wave was one of the largest of all time, and arguably the most significant of all time in terms of the credible reports and hardcore scientific data obtained. Electromagnetic (EM) effects and physical trace evidence were more prominent in other waves, but 1952 (and 1953) featured recurring radar detection of UFOs, often from both ground and airborne radar, visual sightings by jet interceptor pilots sent up to pursue the mysterious objects, and cat-and-mouse chases in which the UFOs seemed to toy with the interceptors. Further, Air Force investigators who plotted the sightings noticed that they were concentrated around strategic military bases, and this clearly posed a threat to national security since their origin was unknown. Senior generals in the Air Force concluded that UFOs were interplanetary in origin, and broadly hinted this belief in LIFE magazine for April 1952.
The 1952 Sighting Wave
After UFOs were sighted by the pilots of planes carrying the Secretary of the Navy and the Chief of Naval Operations, the Navy instituted a short-lived UFO investigation project in the Office of Naval Research. After complaints from the Air Force about intrusion into USAF areas of interest, the project was closed. An outbriefing on the project was held, but details are unobtainable. A number of Freedom of Information requests to various Naval agencies have met with the same answer; no records exist.
A letter from Dr. James McDonald's files illustrates his attempts to find out more information on the 1952 Navy UFO project:
Dear Mr. Thomas:
During the past few years, I have been examining a number of facets of the still unsettled problem of the Unidentified Flying Objects. During a recent visit to Washington, I was discussing a number of aspects of the problem with Arthur C. Lundahl, who was affiliated with the Navy Photographic Interpretation Center in the early 1950s and has followed the UFO problem with some interest ever since. When I mentioned to him that I was most interested in trying to run down some more facts conerning a sighting that I had heard of from Adm. Delmer C. Fahrney, which involved Secretary of the Navy Kimball and Admiral Radford, Art remembered the sighting and told me that, as a consequence of Secretary Kimball's concern, something of a special study was undertaken within the Office of Naval Research, under your direction. He recalled sitting on the summary symposium at the end of the ONR investigations, but his recollection of the date seems just a bit hazy..
I brought up this particular matter today, when I happened to be talking about some of the early period of the Air Force UFO investigation with Gen. William M. Garland, Chief of Air Technical Intelligence in the 1952-53 period, when the UFO investigations were being carried out on a much more thorough basis than has ever been the case in ensuing years. General Garland who is now retired and works for Notth American in the Los Angeles area, dimly recalled the Kimball-Radford sighting and remembered being briefed on the ORN studies by Captain Ruppelt, then Project Bluebook chief. However, he was unable to recollect any details.
I am getting in touch with a lot of Navy personnel, many of them retired, many who were on active duty during the period of Korean hostilities and whose UFO sightings from that period are of unusual interest. The Maxwell AFB archives include original intelligence reports (now declassified, of course) on many of those sightings, and the scientific significance of many of them appears to be substantial. It would seem to me that a matter of no little scientific significance is involved here and has never received adequate investigation, particularly in the post -1953 years at Project Bluebook..
James E. McDonald
"According to worthy information of faith, in our atmosphere objects arrive at high speed. No aircraft, neither in the United States, either in the Soviet Union is currently able to achieve the speed attributed to these objects from the radars and from the observatories. These objects appear to be driven by an intelligence the way in which they fly. According to reports from scientists and technical personnel, these objects fly in formation and finish manoeuvres that seem to point out that are not completely driven from an automatic equipment. These objects are in incontestable mode the result of long investigations and highly technological and exceptional knowledge."
Admiral S. Fahrney,head of missile testing for the American Navy
"I shall be very glad to accept appointment as a member of the (NICAP) Board of Governors and be listed as a 'believer' in the reality of UFO's, with the understanding that I shall resign if it appears at any time that your big group is being used to cover up for the top brass.
I know that there is a real need to break through the official Washington brush-off and get the truth home to the people. There seems to be a great fear among the powers that be that the American people will panic if told the truth. How little they know and understand their countrymen.
I feel that millions of our people already believe in the reality of the UFO's."
Admiral M Herbert B Knowles
"It is time for the truth to be brought out in open Congressional hearings. Behind the scenes high ranking Air Force officers are soberly concerned about the UFOs. But through official secrecy and ridicule, many citizens are led to believe the unknown flying objects are nonsense."
Admiral Hillenkoetter-the first Director of the CIA, 1947-50.
February 27, 1960.
Originally posted by BenTFH
Is there any known atmospheric phenomena that could have caused a sighting like this?
"During the 1955 Warsaw Pact exercises, a radar station in the area of Warsaw recognized two targets over the Gulf of Gdansk. The targets were moving at a speed of 2,300 km/h at an altitude of 20 thousand meters. In those days there was no aircraft with such performance. At one point it was noticed that the two objects did a 90 degrees turn, literally on the spot with no turning radius. This maneuver at such high speeds cannot be done. Most modern aircraft are unable to do so even today, and that was 50 years ago".
Colonel Ryszard Grundmanem, former head of Poland's 'Air Traffic, Air Force and Air Defense'
]"Here we had a number of object seen coming in across the North Sea on coastal radar. It looked like a Russian mistake. Jet aircraft were scrambled. The objects were travelling at quite impossible speeds like 4-5000 mph and then came to an abrupt halt near to one of these stations not very high up. Jet aircraft picked them up on aircraft radar. The objects then simply made rings round them."
"Inevitably this led to the sort of enquiry which you would put in hand if you had any military responsibilities. Had something gone wrong with ground radar or with aircraft radar? We experienced pilots going out of their minds? Were people having fantasies? We *had* to investigate cases of that kind. Over the years - although there were not an enormous number of such cases - there were a sufficient number to persuade me, and a number of air staff friends with whom I had to work, that something was going on, sporadically, in British airspace which we could not explain."
"But we did not particularly want to make public statements about that. Not for something that we had no explanation."
Ralph Noyes,Senior Official with British Air Ministry - retired as Under Secretary of State in 1977
Originally posted by Flyinghaggis
Originally posted by Evanzsayz
reply to post by karl 12
That's not really all that fast if we are considering this to be aliens. We hit 2000mph in 1960's . Feel free to lookup the lockheed's. If they got to our planet outside this solar system well I'm sure they would defiantly have to be capable of alot faster, since our space shuttle's are capable of almost reaching 20,000mph. So 2000 is not impressive.
But it is darn "fast" when 2000 mph and/or change of direction is achieved instantaneously, with no obvious sign of propulsion method, no noise, no sonic boom, and no obvious disturbance to the atmosphere. Compare that type of performance with, for instance, a Lockheed A-11/SR-71A and note the differences. An SR-71 needed a helluva lot more sky than 50 miles to accelerate to 2,000mph (Mach 3.5) AND slow down to subsonic again, because it had to obey the laws of physics/aerodynamics and because of the maximum G forces the human body can take. Tanker crews sometimes saw their hotshot 'Habu' zipping past them, engines at idle, still supersonic, and turning into a 200+ mile wide orbit to come back for gas.
There is no comparison between a UFO/USO and anything human.
In the search through ship reports in Blue Book files, references to three Naval Instructions were found:
• OPNAV INST 3820.9
• CINCPACFLT INST 3820.3
• CINCLANTFLT INST 03360.2C
OPNAV 3820 was the umbrella instruction for the US Navy on UFO reporting. CINPACFLT INST 3820.3 was the instruction issued by the Commander in Chief of the Pacific Fleet in response to the higher level instruction. CINLANTFLT INST 03360.2C was the equivalent instruction issued by the Commander in Chief of the Atlantic Fleet. Since these OPNAV instructions preceded JANAP-146(C) in 1954, they were the first instructions issued to Navy ships to report unidentified flying objects.
No copies of these three OPNAV Instructions have been found despite several attempts via Freedom of Information Act requests.
Originally posted by Phage
There seems to be some conflict between what Keyhoe says he was told by Kimball and the published account.
The May newspaper article makes no mention of the saucer circling either aircraft..
Persons like, for example, the then Secretary of the Navy Dan Kimball, and the officers of his plane flying the Pacific. A UFO buzzed his aircraft. It buzzed the accompanying plane some miles in the rear seconds later. Mr Kimball forwarded the data to Washington. With it went an order that the Office of Naval Intelligence redouble its probing into the subject.
Originally posted by Romekje
Originally posted by Phage
There seems to be some conflict between what Keyhoe says he was told by Kimball and the published account.
The May newspaper article makes no mention of the saucer circling either aircraft. Perhaps Keyhoe or Kimball provided some embellishment. The trouble with embellishment is that it can be difficult to tell where it begins and ends. The trouble with conflicting reports from the same source (Kimball) is that it makes it hard to determine what actually may have occurred.
you just HAVE to keep tossing useless comments in threads right?
So you believe a newspaper over actual source documents?
What kind of debunker nub are you?
Originally posted by karl 12
..below are two other very similar UFO incidents where 'disc shaped' objects were reported by pilots seemingly harassing their aircraft, one of the cases is from the same year as the Kimball incident (1952) and in both cases the objects were confirmed by ground radar.
The Little Rissington Incident
UFOs 'Escort' Mexican Aircraft - Radar Confirmed
Originally posted by Patriotsrevenge
Its called Disinformation to make all of you believe in UFO's when they want to weaponize everything including space to protect us from so called little grey men..
These so called sightings by military and civilian pilots are nothing more than BS.
Unidentified Flying Objects: The Missing Information
A significant number of UFO reports and rumors of UFO reports since WW-II have involved various government individuals or organizations. UFO investigators have been endeavoring to get answers to these cases, but the results I have seen have been less than satisfying. Often inquiries are met with total denial. When replies were given, they usually contained blank or censored segments, even when requested through official FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) channels. This has resulted in the feelings of distrust between citizen and government and the continual cry of ‘cover-up.’
There is little doubt that government officials could put an end to this mystery if they were motivated to do so. Files could be opened. Satellite data could be released. Films could be released. Military and other government officials could be relieved of security oaths were UFO reports are concerned. NORAD, Dew Line and other tracking systems data sets could be released. NASA files could be released and crewmembers given permission to speak freely. This all should all be done while the principle players are still alive.
In the case of the older reports in government files, none of this would hurt national security because none of the older technology is still in use today. For newer cases the UFO information could be separated from sensitive material and fully released. Either way, it is time for some forthright help from government officials. The mass of information awaiting release is phenomenal...
In 1962, former Secretary Dan Kimball and Admiral A.W. Radford were on planes flying between Guam and Hawaii and were circled by two high-speed flying discs. A disc flying around military people of this stature should be the only confirmation required by public, government, science alike to accept that discs do fly and they are not ours. We still have not seen the flight reports. The sighting was confirmed by a U.S. Naval Research, Chief Admiral Calvin Bolster. The full text of the investigation should be released. In addition, other UFO investigations done by Naval Research should be released
Major Dewey Fournet
Did you have any dealings with this fellow that appears a lot in the Robertson Panel proceedings, Dr. Marshall Chadwell, he was the head of the CIA’s Office of Scientific Intelligence.
DF: The name is vaguely familiar, but I can’t say that I can recall him explicitly.
AH: OK, do you recall by any chance a report that is again mentioned by Keyhoe, about a sighting in April 52 by the Secretary of the Navy, Don Kimball, while he was flying over Hawaii? I’ve never been able to find corroborating evidence about this case.
DF: Yeah, it rang a bell, but I think the only place I saw that was in Don’s book, I must say that if I did know about it at the time I can’t remember that. Before we move from that question, Antonio, let me elaborate on that, just try. I was going to elaborate about the question supposedly submitted by the Secretary of the Navy. The reason I may have seen it–and I don’t remember it–is because it didn’t matter the source of the report, the sighting, it could have been from the President himself, but if it was treated as casually and incidentally as, hey I saw this light in the sky, and that’s all there was to it, well, certainly, you might have gone over and talked to the person if you’d gotten permission, and see if there was any additional information that could be added to the initial report, but in this case I feel certain that Kimball would have reported it through the Navy, and the Naval Intelligence were very close to us, and they knew what our rules were, they knew what our requirements were, and the report could have come in and been very vague, and just because Kimball saw something didn’t give it any more credence than another good observer, presumably we would have treated him as a fairly decent observer, and it would have gone in the files as insufficient information, and it would have been just more of [a mass of them?], so the source of the report, the observer, whoever it was, didn’t make that much difference to us.