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5 Questions For People Who Consider Themselves Patriots

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posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 01:08 AM
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this is not a thread created to bash anyone. in light of a recent comment someone left on one of the threads in this board i felt an urge to ask patriots of all nations (but most particularly the United States of America) a few questions as i am curious of your true opinions here. i want to encourage some critical thinking and see if we can spark some fruitful discussion. i will warn people that these questions are a bit loaded:

1. This question addresses the comment that is the impetus for this thread. i do not recall the thread, but i recall someone commenting that the U.S. has the best constitution in the entire world.

my question is, if you believe that your country has the best constitution in the world, how do you justify this belief? have you read every other constitution that has ever existed? how do you measure the "greatness" of a constitution? by its effect on the group of people it is used to guide? by the actual words themselves? is it a mixture of each?

2. do you believe that official government bodies have committed or called for atrocities in various parts of the world (possibly even including their own countries) that could be considered "terrorism"? if so, do you believe that, while it has happened in countries other than your own, it has never happened in your country, nor has it happened at the hands of your government, nor will it ever? to all of these questions, why or why not?

3. this question is similar to the first. do you believe that your country is the absolute best country in the world? if so, what is this assertion based on? have you been to/lived in every other country at some point in your life? do you have family/friends everywhere else, or at least almost everywhere else in the world? what sources of information do you base this assertion off of? what rubric do you base this assertion off of (ie: specific economic indicators, crime rates, laws, etc.)? do you believe it is possible for another nation to be superior to yours at the present time, or that one may potentially be greater in the future, or that there are certain aspects in which other countries may be superior? and most importantly, is it so direly important to be "the best" nation in the world? why or why not?

4. if it is so important that a nation be the best in the world, do you believe it is also important to build other nations to be as great as your nation? if you believe it is, would this not contradict the necessity to be the greatest nation in the world? if not, why not?

5. how would you define patriotism in your terms? do you feel these questions misrepresent your position? what are some questions you feel should be asked of other patriots, as well as of those who do not consider themselves patriots?




posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 01:31 AM
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The only thing as annoying as a "Patriot" is a "Christian".







I say Christian because in the country I am from these are the religious zealots I am most often confronted with but, one could really insert any religion in place of Christianity.



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 02:01 AM
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reply to post by eboyd
 


I think that the USA once was the greatest nation on earth. Today we are still better but also disadvantaged in a lot of ways.

The founding fathers knew that the government would inevitably become corrupt and too big, that is why they drafted the Constitution the way they did.

I will not bother answering the 5 though as it seems like the same question over again with different words.



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 02:10 AM
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Those questions are too hard. Can I choose another category?



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 02:12 AM
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reply to post by Ex_CT2
 


I'll take less confusing questions for $500 Alex.



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 02:19 AM
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Originally posted by thehoneycombI think that the USA once was the greatest nation on earth. Today we are still better but also disadvantaged in a lot of ways.


what makes us better though? the reason i ask these questions is because i feel we have so many people who blindly consider themselves patriots without asking themselves any critical questions as to what makes them a patriot and why they have come to that position. i am not a patriot myself, mainly because i have asked myself these questions and, based on what i understand the term to mean, i do not consider myself one, but i have no problem with people who choose to consider themselves patriots as long as they have thought out and fully understood why they have chosen that position.


I will not bother answering the 5 though as it seems like the same question over again with different words.


that leads me to believe you haven't actually read my questions. while they are similar in nature (mainly because they address issues revolving around one particular political term), they address several different critical issues. for example, there is a big difference between considering our constitution the best in the world and considering our country the best in the world. the reasons, i feel, should be fairly self-explanatory. asking whether we can consider certain actions our government has done or may do to be terrorism is also a fairly different question. and while my fourth question is related to, and stems from, the third, it is still an entirely different issue. and the fifth question is quite a bit different from all of the rest. i feel like you are brushing my questions off not because they are too similar, as you are suggesting, but rather because for some reason you simply don't want to answer them. if you are going to come to this thread, make a comment stating that the U.S. is the best nation in the world, but then ignore my questions because you simply do not want to answer them, there's really no reason to leave a comment at all.



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 02:21 AM
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Originally posted by Ex_CT2
Those questions are too hard. Can I choose another category?


lol what's so confusing about them and how may i be able to reword them to make them easier to answer?

i know they are loaded, but that is often what happens when you ask a question that gets to the root philosophy of an ideology. or is it that the way i phrased things was a bit confusing?



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 02:30 AM
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reply to post by eboyd
 


Well respectfully I will leave then, honestly I find your questions confusing so it's hard for me to answer them at this time.

However to answer your following question there are two things, one in the Constitution the other being the true nature of free market capitalism itself, Which has been deluded over time. The thing in the constitution is the right to bear arms. Thats what sets us apart. The freedom of speech thing is good too, but also more common in any country.

The right to have a militia to defend the constitution from enemies foreign and domestic also ensures that if the 2nd amendment is stripped away, all bets are off.

Do I think we should spread America across the world? Well sure, but people have to learn to accept it themselves we can not force it upon anybody to accept. With the proper education we can. Also we are not in the same state as a nation that we were 200 years ago so if we started spreading America it might be some twisted form of socialism if you get my gest. We have to get our own house back in order. By appearances though it seems we are losing that war, so the only way to proceed is to lead by example.

Also the FED should have never been created and sent this country on a slow but steady collision course. So we have to fix that along with shredding the thousands of laws and stacks of paper that no one really understands other then those who made them into laws with the purpose to confuse, kinda like your OP



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 02:40 AM
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Those are loaded questions like "How many times have you had syphilis?" IMHO, a Patriot is someone who questions his government and would fight against tyranny and for the best interest of his/her country and countryman. Not fight for the Government in wars that aren't in actual defense of the country or being blindly nationalist.

"Foreign and domestic"



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 02:49 AM
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reply to post by eboyd
 


1.)Is the United States Constitution the best in the world?

The road to creating and drafting the United States Constitution is a long one. The Founding Fathers of our republic were influenced by the Magna Carta, and by almost most two centuries of colonial self governance, and were also influenced by the events around them. The US Constitution is a living breathing document, and by that I mean it has the ability to be amended if and as need. But the Constitution was also to limit the power of the Federal government and protect the states and the people. The founders realized that a legislature could easily trample the right of men as easily as a King could. So safe guards such as the Bill of Right and the 10th Amendment were added. The Constitution my not be perfect but if adheared to it can deal with any problem that come along. And think about this, If you tried to write a document like the US Constitution today, it would never happen. With special interests, and political ideological differences you could achieve a document of the same caliber. Plus the constitution took 10 years to get 13 states to ratify, with 50 states you never get it done. What was achieved we may not see the likes of for another millennium.

2.) Do I believe that the US government has committed or called for Atrocities in various part of the world and perhaps even in the US it self?

Sadly I must say yes to this. If you look at American History you will see sadly many such events. Like during the Settling of the West, we pushed the Native American Tribes off there land and broke treaty after treaty. And through foreign policy we have done military interventions to protect American interests abroad. For creating Panama by declaring a drunk in a pub somewhere in Panama the head of the Panamian resistance movement, and then "liberating" Panama from Columbia to build a canal. To our interventionism to in Vietnam to "contain" Communism. As a wise man said, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

But ever nation at some point in its history is guilty of the same thing, be it Rome, the Persian Empire, the Muslim Caliphate, Japan and Germany during World War II, the Rise of the Soviet Union. History is littered with atrocities. Form what I have learned form Human history when two opposing culture collide one of three things will occur. One Civilization will wipe out the other, both Civilizations will merge, or the will remain separate. Yes we have made many mistakes in our history, what matters is we learn from them and try NOT to repeat them.

3.) Do I believe that United States absolute best nation on earth?

I do, because during the World War II the United States keep the European Allies and the Communist Russians in the fight. Had America not entered the WWII, England would have fallen to do lack of supply and the Soviet Union would have fallen soon after. It was American Soldiers made up the bulk of the forces that defeated the Axis Powers, everyone else would have been screw with out american troops and supplies.

Also After WWII we rebuild Europe and Japan,plus we didn't keep what we conquered we gave it all back (eventually). Name another nation in history that has done that.

4.)Should we make other nation great? No. Nation building is a stupid Idea. Why make competition for yourself. The way you make other nations great is having them become part of your nation.

5.) Patriotism is a thing that can get nations in to trouble. Some people think being Patriotic means going along with what ever the government says, and supporting everything the governments does and never asking questions. For example during WWII the People of Japan did what they were told and didn't consider the repercussion of there blind patriotism. There is nothing wrong with supporting you nation during a time of war but always question your leaders and make sure there doing whats in the nations best interest. So may call this being unpatriotic. I call it being responsible.



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 03:20 AM
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Originally posted by thehoneycombWell respectfully I will leave then, honestly I find your questions confusing so it's hard for me to answer them at this time.


i am not asking you to leave, so i apologize if you felt i was. i was simply stating that i am not looking for people to assert their patriotic position here as i think most of us already understand it. i want to address some root issues that are critical to a patriotic political position.

i guess a good place to start would have been to ask people to define patriotism.


However to answer your following question there are two things, one in the Constitution the other being the true nature of free market capitalism itself, Which has been deluded over time. The thing in the constitution is the right to bear arms. Thats what sets us apart. The freedom of speech thing is good too, but also more common in any country.


there are a few interesting quotes from this article on the right to bear arms. it discusses various countries and their gun laws, as well as constitutional amendments that discuss gun possession:


Article 10 of Mexican Constitution of 1917 states the following:

"Article 10. The inhabitants of the United Mexican States have the right to possess arms within their domicile, for their safety and legitimate defense, except those forbidden by Federal Law and those reserved for the exclusive use of the Army, Militia, Air Force and National Guard. Federal law shall provide in what cases, conditions, under what requirements and in which places inhabitants shall be authorized to bear arms."


of course one could argue that Mexico is no great example for having a model constitution which would be considered "the best in the world" for various reasons, most of which include the fact that Mexico has a huge crime and political corruption problem, and some of which may have to do with the wording of the constitution itself (although i don't know as i have never read it). either way, this is still an example of a constitution which does include a right to bear arms, even if the country itself has much more strict laws than the U.S. itself regarding gun policy.

England and Scotland are examples, as well, of countries who have a common law right to bear arms, though neither has a constitution which actually addresses rights as such.

also, when reading a post at another forum, this person brought up what i felt was a relevant point. it is short so it shouldn't be too tedious to read.

my next question to you is, why is it that the second amendment is more important than all others in your opinion? while this doesn't exactly directly regard the second amendment, i understand this argument...


The right to have a militia to defend the constitution from enemies foreign and domestic also ensures that if the 2nd amendment is stripped away, all bets are off.


...however, 1. as the person in the link i posted above pointed out, other countries have similar rights, and 2. even with the second amendment the U.S. government has limited our right to bear arms over time.


Do I think we should spread America across the world? Well sure, but people have to learn to accept it themselves we can not force it upon anybody to accept. With the proper education we can.


so i take it you oppose our "nation building" efforts overseas?


Also we are not in the same state as a nation that we were 200 years ago so if we started spreading America it might be some twisted form of socialism if you get my gest.


as a self-described socialist i want to clarify that, just as the concept of a free market economy has been horribly distorted in the U.S., to the point that we are very far from such, although we still use the term, the same has happened to the term "socialism". just to show you how distorted the term has become, i am a free market socialist. in many socialist circles that term actually makes sense lol.


We have to get our own house back in order. By appearances though it seems we are losing that war, so the only way to proceed is to lead by example.


how do we lead by example, though, when we can't get our house in order first?


Also the FED should have never been created and sent this country on a slow but steady collision course. So we have to fix that along with shredding the thousands of laws and stacks of paper that no one really understands other then those who made them into laws with the purpose to confuse, kinda like your OP


haha, not fair!
i wasn't trying to confuse people, i was simply posing questions that, by their nature, ended up being a bit confusing lol.



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 03:39 AM
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Originally posted by EyesWideShut
Those are loaded questions like "How many times have you had syphilis?"


hahaha! i love it!



IMHO, a Patriot is someone who questions his government and would fight against tyranny and for the best interest of his/her country and countryman. Not fight for the Government in wars that aren't in actual defense of the country or being blindly nationalist.

"Foreign and domestic"


beautifully written. i have actually heard this argument before (from one of my U.S. history professors my sophomore year of college) and, while i do not support the policies of the U.S. government or even many of the doctrines and principles this country was founded on, and in doing i go beyond questioning my government, i would say this definition in many senses would make me more of a patriot than most. however, i have a slightly differing understanding of the term that is a bit more specific as to being a supporter of the principles that the nation is fundamentally based on. just for an example, Madison called for the "minority of the opulent" to rule over the majority. this is one of the founding principles of the U.S. -- one which makes us a republic and not a democracy, and gives direct power to a potentially tyrannical group imo. and i think that is the main reason why the country has progressed as it has, unfortunately.



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 03:49 AM
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Originally posted by JBRiddleThe road to creating and drafting the United States Constitution is a long one. The Founding Fathers of our republic were influenced by the Magna Carta, and by almost most two centuries of colonial self governance, and were also influenced by the events around them. The US Constitution is a living breathing document, and by that I mean it has the ability to be amended if and as need. But the Constitution was also to limit the power of the Federal government and protect the states and the people. The founders realized that a legislature could easily trample the right of men as easily as a King could. So safe guards such as the Bill of Right and the 10th Amendment were added. The Constitution my not be perfect but if adheared to it can deal with any problem that come along. And think about this, If you tried to write a document like the US Constitution today, it would never happen. With special interests, and political ideological differences you could achieve a document of the same caliber. Plus the constitution took 10 years to get 13 states to ratify, with 50 states you never get it done. What was achieved we may not see the likes of for another millennium.


fair enough. so is it what is written in the constitution itself that makes it great, or is it how the constitution has effected the people which it guides/governs, or is it a mixture of both?


Sadly I must say yes to this. If you look at American History you will see sadly many such events. Like during the Settling of the West, we pushed the Native American Tribes off there land and broke treaty after treaty. And through foreign policy we have done military interventions to protect American interests abroad. For creating Panama by declaring a drunk in a pub somewhere in Panama the head of the Panamian resistance movement, and then "liberating" Panama from Columbia to build a canal. To our interventionism to in Vietnam to "contain" Communism. As a wise man said, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

But ever nation at some point in its history is guilty of the same thing, be it Rome, the Persian Empire, the Muslim Caliphate, Japan and Germany during World War II, the Rise of the Soviet Union. History is littered with atrocities. Form what I have learned form Human history when two opposing culture collide one of three things will occur. One Civilization will wipe out the other, both Civilizations will merge, or the will remain separate. Yes we have made many mistakes in our history, what matters is we learn from them and try NOT to repeat them.


agreed 100%


I do, because during the World War II the United States keep the European Allies and the Communist Russians in the fight. Had America not entered the WWII, England would have fallen to do lack of supply and the Soviet Union would have fallen soon after. It was American Soldiers made up the bulk of the forces that defeated the Axis Powers, everyone else would have been screw with out american troops and supplies.

Also After WWII we rebuild Europe and Japan,plus we didn't keep what we conquered we gave it all back (eventually). Name another nation in history that has done that.


this is similar to arguments that i have had presented to me before. is this the only thing to consider that makes America "great" though? what is your barometer for greatness? for example, there are several countries whose quality of life and standard of living outrank the U.S. every year. the U.S. ranks near the bottom in the world in terms of education every year. while no other country has as much wealth as the U.S., there are several countries whose middle class is larger, the wealth gap isn't as broad, and poverty levels and unemployment rates are lower. i am not saying that we don't rank near the top in each, but the fact of the matter is that we aren't #1 in those aspects. do economic issues not factor into whether or not the U.S. is great?


No. Nation building is a stupid Idea. Why make competition for yourself. The way you make other nations great is having them become part of your nation.


not sure what you mean here. the end part almost seems like a direct justification for classical imperialism.


Patriotism is a thing that can get nations in to trouble. Some people think being Patriotic means going along with what ever the government says, and supporting everything the governments does and never asking questions. For example during WWII the People of Japan did what they were told and didn't consider the repercussion of there blind patriotism. There is nothing wrong with supporting you nation during a time of war but always question your leaders and make sure there doing whats in the nations best interest. So may call this being unpatriotic. I call it being responsible.


agreed completely here as well.



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 03:51 AM
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reply to post by Screwed
 


Well, what do you know?

I agree with you on this.



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 04:47 AM
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reply to post by eboyd
 


Madison was looking for an oligarchy , this in all honesty is where we are today with the corporations and big banks taking the role of modern day plutocrats. Check this out


In the UK, Look at the electoral voting system of the City of London financial district for example, the minority of the business vote outweighs the majority of the people. Here in the US it's the lobbyists that are facilitating legislative change on behalf of the corporations , and it's NEVER in the best interests of "We The People".

But I digress...

edit on 12-4-2012 by EyesWideShut because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 11:29 AM
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reply to post by eboyd
 





i am not asking you to leave, so i apologize if you felt i was. i was simply stating that i am not looking for people to assert their patriotic position here as i think most of us already understand it. i want to address some root issues that are critical to a patriotic political position.


No worries.




i guess a good place to start would have been to ask people to define patriotism.


I would say love for country and willingness to defend the Constitution should it ever come to that.




my next question to you is, why is it that the second amendment is more important than all others in your opinion? while this doesn't exactly directly regard the second amendment, i understand this argument...



I pondered on this last night and removing the 2nd amendment is like taking away the foundation of a house of cards. All the other cards would fall down around it. To do so would be catastrophic to the security of the American People, to do so would be the equivalent of Declaring War on the American People and then they would have to confiscate weapons. Nobody in their right mind would want to enforce that. But the 2nd amendment is under attack and has been for a very long time.




...however, 1. as the person in the link i posted above pointed out, other countries have similar rights, and 2. even with the second amendment the U.S. government has limited our right to bear arms over time.


Those are all good things to have even if it is more limited. I think the words in the second amendment and the way it is worded and the qualifiers should be paid close attention to.

It blows my mind the peoples attitude in the UK about the right to bare arms, but I suppose that comes from years of social conditioning and that is a scary thought.




so i take it you oppose our "nation building" efforts overseas?



The road to democracy is one paved with good attentions, I believe we both know how that story ends.




as a self-described socialist i want to clarify that, just as the concept of a free market economy has been horribly distorted in the U.S., to the point that we are very far from such, although we still use the term, the same has happened to the term "socialism". just to show you how distorted the term has become, i am a free market socialist. in many socialist circles that term actually makes sense lol.


Sounds like the state of our country, but free market socialist is not a very sound theory. I say go and read the platform and constitution of the socialist and communist parties and decide wether or not that is something you would be willing to risk or a life you would like to live. You don't get to choose what type of Socialism you get, you get what you get and it will lead to communism and tyranny.




how do we lead by example, though, when we can't get our house in order first?



We sit and we wait for the full blown assault on the American People and the Constitution. Then we clean up the mess.



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 11:51 AM
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Originally posted by eboyd

1. This question addresses the comment that is the impetus for this thread. i do not recall the thread, but i recall someone commenting that the U.S. has the best constitution in the entire world.

my question is, if you believe that your country has the best constitution in the world, how do you justify this belief? have you read every other constitution that has ever existed? how do you measure the "greatness" of a constitution? by its effect on the group of people it is used to guide? by the actual words themselves? is it a mixture of each?


in under two hundred years the document enabled 13 colonies, to go from that point to dominating even the mother countries we originate from.

The concepts act as a guide to attempt to prevent the worse atrocities committed by tyrants



2. do you believe that official government bodies have committed or called for atrocities in various parts of the world (possibly even including their own countries) that could be considered "terrorism"? if so, do you believe that, while it has happened in countries other than your own, it has never happened in your country, nor has it happened at the hands of your government, nor will it ever? to all of these questions, why or why not?


Multiparter- parter-
1) yes-

sometimes you have to go bump back in the middle of the night.... however few people acknowledge a moral price tag for said acts that gets expensive with compound interest

ask a veteran of the ACW if the matter should have been settled cheaply when the country was first formed

see demons from your past do say hello

2)yes, from different pov- mostly over power and control

3 and 4)nope-
it has happened

5) yes at the hands of the government

6-10) power, control, and those trying to increase their own power

the prince by good ole mach... plain enough to understand



3. this question is similar to the first. do you believe that your country is the absolute best country in the world? if so, what is this assertion based on? have you been to/lived in every other country at some point in your life? do you have family/friends everywhere else, or at least almost everywhere else in the world? what sources of information do you base this assertion off of? what rubric do you base this assertion off of (ie: specific economic indicators, crime rates, laws, etc.)? do you believe it is possible for another nation to be superior to yours at the present time, or that one may potentially be greater in the future, or that there are certain aspects in which other countries may be superior? and most importantly, is it so direly important to be "the best" nation in the world? why or why not?


ok? multipart questions....

We are the greatest country on earth.... having seen the conditions in a few other place and having acquired the ability to read yesterday

as for our challengers... only time will tell

I do not think chine, uk, eu, or russia will be our downfall

we do not care if we are the best because we know we are




4. if it is so important that a nation be the best in the world, do you believe it is also important to build other nations to be as great as your nation? if you believe it is, would this not contradict the necessity to be the greatest nation in the world? if not, why not?


nope it is not... the systems will interact and good ole darwin will winnow out the weak..... no need fro marxist interference...

its like a noob trying to get advice from a 30 year experienced player.... some of the crap is so counter instinctual that it might as well be majic



5. how would you define patriotism in your terms? do you feel these questions misrepresent your position? what are some questions you feel should be asked of other patriots, as well as of those who do not consider themselves patriots?


You need a new category.

Thomas Paine I believe put it best

winter soldier



The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country


the explanation you want was outline by many different people but put best by Paine with those words and
You do not get to know who is what until the testing phase no other metric that is reliable exist



this describes the point in an artistic way





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